What scenario would you prefer? Re-sign Long and put him at LT moving Martin back to RT. Or, sign Andre Smith for a couple mil cheaper for the RT spot; keep Martin at LT. Smith was scary to me a couple of years ago but he has come on. Although it is possible he would garner more than Long thinks he will get. Or, perhaps neither scenario works... and you prefer another option on the OL for the FA period.
Jake Long decision is a no brainer. I would not even attempt to sign him. We have a LT, and we need a reasonably priced RT. So Smith it is, of options you gave.
Dammit, scrolling down with my keyboard changed my vote. I voted for resigning Long, but I wanted to "go another direction". Oh well.
Andre Smith was very good but he scares me because of his propensity for laziness. Plus its being reported (on rotoworld) that he wants about 9M per. Long also wants about 11M per (according to rotoworld). Ideally I want Martin at LT and Vollmer or Cherilus at RT. That should be significantly cheaper and tackle just isnt a position I look to tie up money in. I value interior OL more when I have a pocket passer. Plus the idea of having Long and Smith while theyre both good are both seriously flawed (injuries with Long and work ethic with Smith) and tying up upwards 15M annually in tackles isnt a good idea imo.
Long at LT but ONLY at a low price, which I don't think he's going to accept. That's why I voted Smith at RT and keep Martin at LT. Martin showed he is almost Long's equal and Long is getting injury prone, maybe age and Sparano's OL wear catching up to him. Martin also not only looked close to Long's ability but did so as a rookie, so unless Long take's a huge "hometown" discount, let him walk. JMVHO Smith is sounding like he's not worth it either at the price that's being mentioned, look for other options at that price. Heck for only $2mil more I'd re-sign Long.
Vollmer will be cheaper than Smith (though not by much). But he is 2-3 years older. Vollmer can play on the left or right side though.
Ronin, who is from cincy DF and has watched his games, says the kid isn't all that, and I'll admit I haven't watched him since he came out of college, but I wasn't a big fan at the time.
I also concur completely on a strong interior OL. Vollmer is interesting but may be hard to pry from the Pats - and some questions are there about his injury history. I'm a bit skeptical about Cherilus. I'd like to get a DE and WR along with a RT in FA and would then love to go OG in round one of the draft. I think with either Warmack or Cooper in round 1 we could have a plug and play player at OG for the next decade (though Warmack may go before our pick and I'd prefer to trade down before drafting Cooper at 12 - at least 3 spots). But, some think Cooper is more versatile.
The cheaper, the better. The better, the more cap flexibility. The more cap flexibility, the more risks you can take.
Cheaper, without any guarantees of NFL success. It also costs us a draft pick, which we could use to fill all the other holes on the team. So no, I don't think drafting another T is a good idea. Especially when we used the #1 overall pick 5 years ago to get one. If Jake walks because he won't accept a reasonable contract, then we should try and look at Vollmer, IMO. Although I think he's likely going to re-sign with NE. In that case, try and get another T. If that doesn't work for one reason or another, then and only then should we consider a T in the draft.
You're always going to have holes regardless. It's better to use them on a position in between the hashes than outside of it. Selecting an offensive tackle doesn't necessarily mean a first round pick is being used.
2-3-4 years ago i would have agreed on that philosophy but now you really need both. It's more on a case by case basis with how the basis for the team is set up and how the coaches philosophy meshes the players available. With philbins offense you need good wrs. Its not a luxury its a necessity if you want to give the man's offense a fair chance to succeed. Otherwise you may as well fire him now and bring back Sparano.
So where do we find a day one starter at either LT or RT? Round 2? I think Martin has potential, but there was a reason he wasn't round 1. And while going round 1 doesn't guarantee anything, it's certainly "safer" to find the kind of T I'm describing. And I disagree with you about drafting inside the hashes when we currently don't have a starting CB signed to the roster and don't have a #1 or #2 caliber WR signed to the roster. Obviously F.A. could change the draft waters depending on who we've signed (and let walk). As of now, drafting another T is absurd. And it will reflect poorly (not that it actually matters) on Ireland. 4 Olineman (three tackles) in rounds 1 or 2 in the last 5 years for a team devoid of perimeter talent is unacceptable.
The mistake you gentlemen are making is in the assumption that the positions outside the hashes are being disregarded. That's simply not true, even in the event of focusing on the hashes. My point was that if you're going to fortify your team, you're best off doing it in between the hashes. The positions in that area include but are not limited to quarterback, under tackle and safety. Moreover, that doesn't mean you are solely looking to run the ball -- it means you are also enhancing your chances of passing the ball on the offensive side of the ball and on the defensive, stopping the pass. As for general starters, they don't come in only the first or second round. On average, a first round selection starts 11 games a season in their career while a third round pick, for instance, starts six. That's merely an average and doesn't say which will succeed. However, it does indicate that you can find players outside of the first round that are starting caliber -- which you can, especially in today's game and especially with the way today's offensive lines are built. And in regards to Ireland's past, I'll simply put it this way: I don't care. That's not to be rude, rather to save your time and mine.
Certainly is. But, I also think we need an OG, a DE, a WR, 1-2 CBs, a S, a TE ... so, there's that. I do think we should try to get 3 starters in FA at need spots (I'm not big on the TE FA in Keller; and even if we land a FA WR I still think we need to draft one in round 2 if possible; also need TE and OG...). If you can get a sure starter at a need spot, that could free us up a bit. Personally, I'd like to land a RT, WR, and possibly DE in FA (or S/CB) then go OG in round 1, and in no particular order - TE/WR/DB/DL.
Not true at all for my position anyway. The assumption Im making is that in order for Joe Philbin's offense to really succeed the way the way GB's offense does then we need to invest in the position in a similar manner. That means its ultimately the 2nd or 3rd most important position on the offense right after QB and C and on par with TE. Seeing as how the first two are sowed up...
Do you know where the weakness of the Green Bay Packers' offense has been? As for the importance of position, I think those are debatable but also for a later day.
Jake will be testing the market and asking for a mountain of cash. Some team will overpay. Won't be us.
Martin absolutely did not show he was Longs equal. If we start Martin at LT next year, we will lose Tannehill to a blindside hit injury at some point.
Everyone seems really down on Martin at LT. Why? Because he struggled during his rookie season? An off-season training program may do this kid a lot of good. I'm not convinced we should give up on him being our LT of the future.
Yup cause players never grow. Lets get some perspective here guys. Martin gave up 6 sacks and 4 QB hits. Why he rates so badly is that he's not particularily strong so he lets up a tonne of hurries (47) and because he's not paricularily strong he gets no push in the run game. I expect him to get stronger. This team isn't doing their job if they don't make him work out a lot this offseason. If he can cut those hurries in half he'll be fine. Now for that perspective I was talking about: Martin: 6 sacks, 4 hits, 47 hurries Gosder: 4 sacks, 7 hits, 27 hurries Andre: 7 sacks, 2 hits, 24 hurries Vollmer: 6 sacks, 7 hits, 22 hurries Loadholt: 4 sacks, 4 hits, 23 hurries A. Davis: 8 sacks, 4 hits, 28 hurries O. Franklin: 4 sacks, 5 hits, 17 hurries T. Claybo: 5 sacks, 7 hits, 23 hurries This is Martin next to PFF's top RT's. And this is why these guys are RT's. LT's are covering the blindside and most of the premier rushers line up over the right side to attack the lesser tackle these days. So no Martin is NOT giving up more hits....he is however making Tannehill hurry his throws more then other RT's. So hopefully with some growth and a lot of strength training he might be alright. My pick for OL: Sign Levitre to play LG. Move Incognito back to RG and sign Phil Loadholt (rated the #4 run blocking tackle by PFF) and move Martin to LT and work his butt off in the strength training. Loadholt/Incognito/Pouncey/Levitre/Martin (and give Martin some TE/RB help till he grows into the role). Or if you want to cut the costs down...cut Incognito and go another route at RG that way Levitre/Loadholt run you close to the cost of a Long/incognito. Tell me you wouldn't love Lamar Miller running behind Levitre/Pouncey/Incognito/Loadholt!
Martin at LT is a gamble I'm not sure I'm willing to take...that's putting the health and safety of our franchise QB in jeopardy lol
Know what, spare me the sarcastic opening line next time and I'll bother reading your response. No one said 'players never grow'. The extreme absurd hyperbole to make someone's position sound unreasonable (when it's just your ridiculous made up exaggeration of a position no one took) is snide and totally degrades the discussion.
I think you're dancing around the issue. You're talking probably 1/3 of our available cap space to compensate for Martin's shortcomings. Sure that'd be a good line, but you have three potential pro-bowlers and a solid Incognito from LG to RT. Martin is the worst of the group. Martin will be the worst of that group next year. Get stronger. Easier said than done. It's been one of Martin's weaknesses since college, and it was one of the reasons he fell in the draft. Only 20x 225.
Smith can play either side too. He was a good LT in college. The reason why he's plays RT for the Bengals is because of Andrew Whitworth being a fine LT who was there ahead of him.
Ah...as opposed to "if we keep Martin..were going to lose Tannehill". Spare me the fake wounded act. People have been dumping all over Martin for months now but no one's really taken a closer look at stuff. All I did was take a closer look. And quite frankly the only part of my post aimed directly at you was the very first line about players growing part. The rest spun off to people in general. Levitre has nothing to do with Martin. I just like Levitre ;p If anything Levitre's signing would be more about Incognito/Jerry. It does take time to gain strength in a program. Obviously they didn't push him at school but I do hope they are pushing him here. Plus it's not absurd in any way that OL can take time to grow. We saw that with Vernon Carey. Guy was hated more so then Martin after his first year. He turned out fine for several years. Cost wise it'd be the same as paying a Long what he wants and Incognito. Those 2 not being on this team pretty much covers the cost of a Loadholt and Levitre. Even ignoring that at RT I would love Phil Loadholt. Guy is a solid pass blocker and a mauler of a run blocker. Vikings fans are paranoid at the thought of losing him.
I think he has a really good chance of getting stronger and becoming a very solid LT. Look at the background of the Texans' Duane Brown. Arguably the best LT in the league the last two seasons overall. He was drafted in the 1st in 2008 and thrown into the fire as a rookie, same as Martin. Brown allowed 11 sacks, 14 hits and 25 hurries as a rookie LT and had a PFF pass blocking rating of -14.2 and overall a -14.0. In 2009, he gave up 7 sacks, 11 hits and 35 hurries and improved to a -5.7 pass block rating and overall a +1.8. In 2010 he was a top 20 tackle and had cut his numbers down to 5 sacks, 6 hits and 19 hurries albeit in 12 games. His pass block rating was a 2.8 and overall a 10.7. In 2011, he was rated the 2nd best LT in the league behind Peters. Allowed ZERO sacks, 4 hits and 22 hurries. His pass block rating was 14.7 and overall a 22.4. This season saw him as the 2nd LT again, behind Staley. Allowed 4 sacks, 6 hits and 12 hurries. Pass block rating of 18.7 and overall a 35.6 Granted, Martin had a worse rookie season in 2012 than Brown did back in 2008, but the point is he was given the chance to grow and develop. I'll bet he was being talked about by Texans fans after the 2008 season as badly as Martin is now by Dolphins fans.
As much as I want Levitre I can't see Ireland going there. I hope to god though he takes advantage of this stellar class of RT's in FA though. Honestly I'd be satisfied with any of them...but if we really want to improve our run game....Loadholt is the guy we should target. I would think 6 to 6.5 million a year would get him.
I'd be happy with either Loadholt or Smith at RT. Probably Load will be cheaper though, but Smith could give you a contingency plan at LT besides being a good RT. Looks like the main difference between them is Load draws a lot more flags.
That was part of the point of the option - those who selected that option would obviously think Martin could handle the left side (or has the upside to do so).
Good point. But, then again, when each arm is nearly 72 inches long, hard to do much more than that! Webb's arms were just awesome - perfect LT length.
