Long: Whether I stay with Dolphins 'on them'

Acting like Matt Ryan was the logical solution to all our problems when the decision was made isn't really all that honest an assessment of the situation. No one batted any lashes over the Dolphins passing him up at that time. There wasn't any Brady Quinn style outcry.

 

Only because of the false hope that John Beck could actually not be what John Beck turned out to be.

Just think about what would've happened had Brett Favre not come out of retirement. We were headed for a 6 win season at best. Do you disagree with this?

 

Where were you at the time? The fans were pretty divided over passing up Matt Ryan.

 

That's not really a good reason to make a decision you wouldn't have under different circumstances. Most of the time that kind of thinking is going to get you ****ed over, the minority of the time it doesn't really change that.

I don't know that you're accurately representing the situation either. John Beck wasn't likely to go into the season as a starter regardless of Pennington.

 

Interestingly, from the combine via twitter, KC is going to retain Bowe and let Albert face a "buyer's market" in Tackles in FA

Albert supposedly has a back issue, Long has had triceps/upper body issues, and for those looking for a rental McKinnie was released by the Ravens.

Could be Jake is overestimating his market.

 

I wasn't one of them, but there were a few guys around here who were very strongly supportive of Ryan being the pick before the draft.

 

Absolutely there was, Dpate seems to be suffering from a selective memory.

I personaly do not follow college ball so when it comes to the draft I just read other peoples opinions. Back then I had no preference over either one of them. If Jake had turned out to be the player he was billed as, it would of been a great pick. In hindsight it turns out Matt Ryan would of been the better choice. IMO for the kind of money he commands he gets beat too much. I am also disappointed that after 5yrs and almost $70 mil later it looks like he wont settle for a salary more in line with his production.

Bad luck for Ireland too. Jake walking does not really look like is on him but it still goes down as another bad draft pick IMO. I am curious to see what he winds up signing for. I tend to agree with some of the other posters that he is going to end up looking at $7-$8 mil per year, wherever he ends up.

 

I'm pretty sure you're the one misrepresenting the situation.

Sure, most of the time. BUT: You absolutely cannot look at the QB situation the Miami Dolphins were in prior to the 2008 draft and not take it into account. You must also take into account the fact that QB is exponentially more important to a football team than the next closest position in this era of the NFL.

When you look at those factors and combine them with the mere fact that most NFL scouts pegged Matt Ryan as a top 5 pick it's very plausible to come away thinking "My God, what have they done?"

If you want to sit there and tell me that taking Coradelle Patterson this year is stupid when a guy like Luke Joeckel or Bjorn Werner is still on the board (because you don't just draft need over BPA), I'm completely on board with your beliefs. But you cannot apply that line of thinking to all situations.

And the funny thing is: Jeff Ireland learned from his mistake. Because just about every draftnik around thought we reached a little for Tannehill. But Jeff wasn't going to let that get in the way of getting his guy. He basically said "**** it! I don't care that he's graded as a mid-late first/2nd. I want this guy. I could not care less that Luke Kuechly is still around and is graded higher."

And I applaud him more than anyone for finally getting "it". Being such a proponent of Jeff Ireland, I'd assume you realize this as well.

 

And there were enough people thinking Jake wasn't worth #1 overall. After all, he was bullrushed by Vernon Gholston. Remember that?

Jake Long was only a RT. There was talk of that as well.

There were the same amount of people who wanted Ryan than wanted Long. Why? Because we needed a frickin QB. Not an LT.

If you draft a top QB he gets paid 9-13 million and you pay it. If you draft a top LT he gets around the same and you might have 4 scrubs and the worst line in the NFL. It's absolutely poor decision making.

And Dpate is having selective memory thinking everyone was on board with Jake Long. Confusing it with Brady Quinn because Brady Quinn was a surprise. We knew it was Jake Long going into the weekend due to contract negotiation.

 

They simply misjudged Chad Henne. They clearly had him on the same (or near the same) level as Matt Ryan and they got it wrong. Water under the bridge. I'll wait to see how the current regime does again, after a strong showing last year.

 

They simply misjudged the entire 2008 draft. I do agree with you about it being a strong 7-9 this year. I think you have to give both Philbin and RT a lot of credit for the impressive turn around from that abysmal 6-10 record the year before. Hopefully they can continue to build on what they have and along with a solid draft, get us all the way up to 8-8 next year.

 

I'm sure there were people who wanted Matt Ryan, but they were a minority, and that's especially notable in the context of where the team was at the time. The selection of Matt Ryan wouldn't have been shocking or outrageous, but it certainly wasn't expected even before Jake Long's contract. If Matt Ryan was regarded in the way you are portraying the decision in retrospect, there would have been an even bigger outrage than there was over Brady Quinn.

 

There absolutely was not the same amount of people who wanted Matt Ryan.

 

That is not entirely true.

At the time the major argument was over Chris Long (who I preferred) and Jake Long. Hell, there were people who supported Vernon ****ing Gholston.

Matt Ryan was by no means a sure thing, unless you only listened to Mike Mayock. Remember, we had needs EVERYWHERE. Ireland did the right thing at the time in my opinion. He took a foundation piece for the offensive line and chose to get his "QB of the future" later. They over estimated Henne.

In hindsight of course he would have taken a quarterback #1 overall...Joe Flacco.

 

Interesting to go back and look at pre-draft threads from 2008:

http://www.thephins.com/forums/showthread.php?5035-On-the-Clock-Is-Ryan-worth-the-top-prize

Almost all negative remarks re: Matt Ryan in that thread.

http://www.thephins.com/forums/poll.php?pollid=53&do=showresults

4.88% of respondents believed Matt Ryan was the BPA at #1

http://www.thephins.com/forums/showthread.php?5153-COMMENTARY-Odds-Breakdown-of-the-1-Pick

Another thread where people basically said Matt Ryan just isn't a franchise QB.


To be fair, there certainly were a few people that liked Ryan. IIRC, AdamPrez was a big Matt Ryan fan:
http://www.thephins.com/forums/show...t-number-will-Matt-Ryan-wear-for-the-Dolphins

But the idea of Ryan wasn't well-received. It seems like Ryan was the 4th or 5th most popular choice among fans here. Most people wanted Chris Long. Jake Long was a close 2nd. Glenn Dorsey was really popular too.

 

I was gonna say I'm pretty sure I voted for Chris Long, but then it dawned on me that I didn't join the site until March of '09, so obviously that didn't happen.

Although, IIRC that is who I wanted.

I also remember thinking Henne's success or failure would likely determine whether taking Long over Ryan was the right choice. In the end, I think it's Long's inability to stay healthy and play at an elite level that makes it look like not a bad decision per say, but certainly not one you'd want to make again in hindsight. Least, not me.

 

Looking back at those old threads, I see some familiar names that I've not seen for a while. Phunwin used to be a big part of this forum, and he's not been around here for months. Wonder that happened to him?

 

Taking Jake Long was not the best choice. The best choice IMO would have been Joe Flacco. But holding a team to the standard of making the absolutely best choice is not a very good way to go about things IMO.

 

Neither is making the absolute worst choice. An OL at #1 overall? You gotta be kidding me...

 

First overall? I don't believe anyone at all thought so before the 2008 draft.

 

You think Vernon Gholston would have been a better choice than Jake Long???

 

Not sure how to interpret that comment Stringer. But, I'm just looking at it (like everyone, I think) in hindsight. I mean, we can all nail draft picks 4-5 years later, no?

But, yes...I hold the Dolphins to the standard of making the absolutely best choice every draft. Why wouldn't I? Those that are in a position to evaluate talent and need are paid well to make the best possible decisions for the team. Is it going to happen all the time, every time? No. Do I want it to? Hell yeah.

To clarify, I am not calling the Long pick a bad pick. I think you have to look at it in context. The FO obviously saw something in Henne that lead them to make the choice of Long at #1, and then Henne at #57. If Long stays healthy, and Henne is what they thought he was, then they look like geniuses. In the end, not so much.

 

Because by that standard, teams fail 99% of the time. Was Aldon Smith a failed pick, since SF could have had Richard Sherman?

 

Jake Long, what went wrong?

The talent was there, and properly assessed.

But how his health was handled destroyed his level of play.

Sparano's decision to play a dinged up and healing Long late in a pre-season game was the straw that broke the camels back. To that point, Jake had minor issues and healed fully each time before returning at 100%.

That was the turning point where his injuries began to overlap and linger and he would return before getting to 100%, in all likelihood to be a good 'soldier' the way Sparano, Parcells and the team expected.

He did as he was told, played when not a 100% and now he is being discounted as a result. You could see where Long may feel he was willing to sacrifice for the team, but now the team doesn't do the same for him when it's contract time.

Tony Sparano and 'the code' of playing hurt is what broke Jake Long, an otherwise best-tackle-in-the-league talent.

That's not on Ireland.

(For the record, I am not pro-Ireland.)

 

They were dead wrong on Henne. I agree.

 

Far fewer injuries.

 

I don't even think they were that wrong on Henne. Trying to turn him in Chad Pennington was a mistake.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBHONx9vTtI&sns=em

 

They weren't John Beck wrong. He looked the part. But lacked certain character traits IMO, and was mismanaged, as you pointed out.

I recall stubborn Henning saying he refused to change anything at all to accommodate Henne being different from Pennington.

Hey Dan, how's that workin' out for ya?

 

Ummm...no? But, I'm not sure that's a very good example as you could argue neither pick would be a "failed pick."

Maybe a better example would be Patrick Peterson vs. Blaine Gabbert. Particularly since one is a QB (and that's kinda the whole argument here with taking Long over Ryan). I think most would agree that Peterson was clearly the better choice for Arizona...no?

Look, I'm just sayin' I want my team to make the best possible choice with each selection, and in every draft (and FA). I realize that isn't realistic, but it's still what I want.

 

Long is obviously better, but a DE makes somewhat more sense than an OL at that spot. Taking any skill position (even if they end up busting) would have been better. At least they would have tried, instead of being conservative and playing it safe with someone who's just there to block.

 

JR, LT is arguably one of the most important positions on the offense, if for no other reason than he protects the blind side of the most important position, the QB. I get your frustration, but Jake Long absolutely was not a bad pick at #1 overall. And, if he had stayed healthy and played the last two seasons as he played '08-'10, I seriously doubt we'd be having this conversation.

 

In retrospect, not enough touch on the short stuff, not athletic enough to extend the play, maybe didn't or couldn't read the field quickly enough, little consistency. Total backup quality. We can blame the play calling in Miami, but Jacksonville has at least proven that much.

I don't blame them for taking the shot, given the tools he had and given the program he came from. It's not remotely close to the Pat White pick.

 

A serviceable LT would suit just fine. Doesn't have to be an all-pro.

 

You all can assign a different value to left tackle, but the fact remains it is high up there on Ireland's "core positions" list.

As is something currently missing on this team, a shutdown corner.

 

You know what's high on the "core position" list of most people? Quarterback.

Before Tanny, what is Parcells/Ireland's draft record of top round QBs? Lazy to look. Maybe Bledsoe?

EDIT: Left Tackle is definitely important but vastly overrated. There are 22 positions on the field and they all contribute.

But I made this argument before Jake was injured and he was still playing at an all pro level.

What good is Fort Knox with a deadbolt on the backdoor, when the other 4 doors have padlocks on them AND there is no gold inside?

 

Pennington was a parcells pick

 

Forgot about Penny. I thought there was a GM in place at the time. Turns out he was the GM. lol