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Dolphins and Hartline are talking contract

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Perfectville_USA, Feb 12, 2013.

  1. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Oh yes. One in 15 years.

    Some opinion and some fact, and he made some great points which no one has attempted to refute, last I checked.

    Had Hartline been on the early/mid 80s Dolphins, he'd have been their Jimmy Cefalo, the #3 or #4 behind great receivers like Duper, Clayton, Harris, and Moore.
     
    ToddPhin likes this.
  2. Since when?
     
  3. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    But...he is a self proclaimed *** kicking machine, so he has that going for him...which is nice.
     
  4. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    Somebody get this man's brain a Gatorade. Those were some sweet mental gymnastics. Where I'm from, an average number 1 receiver is called a number 2 receiver. You're intentionally using average in a way much different from the people you're arguing against.
     
    Fin D likes this.
  5. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Good point. I hadn't thought about that one.
    I just don't understand why fans are so content to have an average at best player starting at flanker, as if upgrading the position and wanting to score more points is frowned upon.

    Imagine if Miami had that mentality and passed on Mark Clayton b/c we'd rather be content with Joe Rose.
    Imagine if the Steelers were content with Frank Lewis (who's actually an upgrade over Hartline) and passed on HOFer, John Stallworth.
    It's odd b/c some fans have no problem wanting to upgrade every other average-performing position on the field, but when it comes to upgrading flanker the mood quickly shifts to, "Oh no, no, no, we can't touch Hartline". Is it b/c he's the great white hope? lol
     
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  6. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Right, and an average #2, which Hartline is, should ideally be a #4 on a great team so that there's more consistency from the starter and better depth behind him.
     
  7. PhinsRock

    PhinsRock Premium Member Luxury Box

    Wait, where are all the GIF's of Hartline catching TD's in the end zone? :no:
     
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  8. FanMarino

    FanMarino Season Ticket Holder

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    Hartline oppologists are lame. Hartline supporters are not. Big difference.
     
  9. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Suggesting that a phrase means exactly what the combination of words would logically suggest it means is pretty much the polar opposite of metal gymnastics.
     
  10. Patssuck

    Patssuck Well-Known Member

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    Wasnt Clayton a 12th round pick or something?
     
  11. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    8th round and pick # 223.
     
  12. CaribPhin

    CaribPhin Guest

    We've had this talk before...average can either be the statistical midpoint of a data set, or a descriptive term generally used similarly to mediocre.
     
    MrClean likes this.
  13. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    What is an oppologist?
     
  14. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    You're arguing as if Hartline had an off year, TD-wise.


    Sure, the year before he was out of the game. If you feel like that proves your point and not mine...then so be it.



    It does make him look bad. Because it shows that he has a deficiency in his game, and big one at that. Being a WR who averages less than 2 TDs a year is meh for #3WR receiver. He was a #1 this year. When a #3 plays like a #3 at a #1 position, there is a deficiency. He is a decent possession receiver and nothing more.

    So I'm clear, you thought I'd do something you find silly but didn't...and you're still thinking I would??????
    I guess all I can say to that is....you:
    [​IMG]
    There you go! I did what you thought I'd do but didn't.
     
    GMJohnson likes this.
  15. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Ah see I can help you. Hartline apologists are so hardcore they are like a special-ops team. Therefore..op-pologists
     
  16. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    Chris Chambers scored TD's and made big plays but had issued getting to that 1000 yard mark = HAS TO GO

    Briant Hartline = Gets to 1000 yards due to an increase in targets (The team didnt even HAVE a #3 receiver worth a crap) but never finds the endzone = GOD OF WR's
     
  17. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I wonder if I should buy the home or away Brian Hartline jersey. Or maybe the Pro Bowl Brian Hartline jersey? Better think quick before they sell out.
     
  18. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I think you should get one of each, so even if one is dirty you still have two more to choose from. Be sure to let us know if you trip or fall down for no apparent reason more often while wearing them. Such as tripping on a patch of grass that is a little high or a crack in the sidewalk, etc. Since Hartline cannot find his way into the end zone very well, you may also often find yourself lost and unable to get home if you go out for a walk in your Hartline jersey too. :shifty:
     
  19. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I might get caught from behind too if I'm running away from the police. That's when I'll have to pop out my Reggie Bush jersey.
     
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  20. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Why, will you be buying all two of your pre-ordered Asian knockoffs or just the one?
     
  21. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Awwww, so you do have something in common with Hartline. :lol:
     
  22. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Sorry, this is a horrible joke.

    Leave it to the professionals.
     
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  23. Hiruma78

    Hiruma78 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    just my 2 cents:

    the pro bowl thing, in all honesty, means really nothing. and I don't get why it is mentioned again and again, we all know what pro-bowl is in these days (derek anderson anyone?).

    Hartline is a average N'2 receiver: he is just average, has some very good qualities (work ethic, awesome on the sideline, good hands, not a burner but not slow for sure, awesome chemistry with our QB, disciplined), but he has also some sad limits (no scoring skills, no true phisicality in his game, no playmaking skills, no ability to break tackles) that are unlikely to go away.... average is not bad, in any way (I mean, he is a WR receiver in the NFL, the top of the top, it is not like we are saying he can't play and for a 4th round pick it was great value), but is...average....

    so, in conclusion, I would pay him just that, like an average n'2, nothing more (I don't know how much is this, what is the average for that role). I would like so much to resign him, beacuse I think he is the kind of ritght player, right cog, but it is important not to overpay him because we are desperate (because without him, at the moment, we almost have no wr)


    as usual, sorry for my bad English
     
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  24. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    IMO about 5 mill is the market for a decent #2 WR.
     
  25. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Maybe so. But I think we have a decent chance of landing a #2 in the draft for a fraction of that while using the savings to go after a legit #1.

    Jennings, Keenan Allen and Stedman Bailey for 10 million. Bowe, Cordarelle Patterson, Quinton Patton for a similar price. Whereas Jennings and Hartline would cost 12 million alone. And there are scores of other options.

    All boils down to this: Hartline was a great bargain as a 4th round pick. Are we better off paying him 5 million, not a great value at all IMO, or going back to the draft to find another guy who can produce similar results at a cheaper price?
     
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  26. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    The odds of any draft WR being a decent starter in year 1 are remote. Relying on that rookie would basically waste a year of RT's development, assuming he develops. It would be wiser to have Hartline at $5 mill, add a FA #1 and give the rookie time to develop. If he's a hit right off the bat great, then you have a really strong WR group. If, as is most likely, he takes time to develop and learn a very complex offense, then you don't screw over RT in the mean time. Most likely it will be a 3-year deal as that's what Ireland has been using on most players since Parcells left. So you pretty much guarantee that have a decent #2 and a guy RT trusts for two or three years while a rookie develops. You also don't risk the public turning against RT and Philbin. Most fans aren't smart enough to figure out who's at fault when the WR screws up. They just point at the QB, coach or GM.
     
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  27. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    If you pick and choose carefully, one could find a rookie early with better odds of being a plug and play starter.
    Even so, say we signed Jennings, lost Hartline, kept Bess, and drafted someone like Allen, Williams, Woods, Wheaton or Bailey. Due to their experience at the D-1 level and skill sets I think they'd be more likely to be plug and play than many WRs. But, even it it took them a few games to get up to speed, we'd still have Bess as a fall back option and Matthews showed some potential late in the season. Jennings and Bess starting, with any of those rookies named as the #3, is a decided upgrade over our WRs we had to open last season. Unless one thinks Jennings for Hartline is a wash, and any of those rookies for Naanee, Armstrong, or Gaffney is a wash.

    Edit: Also, if free agency was basically just an add Jennings, subtract Hartline thing, I'd double up on WRs and take a 2nd one no later than the 4th.
     
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  28. Ludacris

    Ludacris Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree with rafael. What you have with Hartline is a known commodity. I think that's worth some value. There's chemistry with Tannehill, he's a professional, got good hands etc. He has limitations but he missed OTAs, camp and preseason due to complications of his appendectomy, learned a new offence and still caught for more than 1000yards. $5M a year sounds right and he may even improve further as a WR. I would like Ireland to keep him instead of rolling the dice on drafting 2 WRs instead of just needing one.
     
  29. dougb

    dougb New Member

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    Hartline is not good enough to over pay, if his worth 3.5 or 5 million a year offer him that if he leaves there will be others receivers in FA or the draft. He will never again be the #1 receiver on any squad and will never be targeted like he was this year.
     
    GMJohnson likes this.
  30. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Better odds than what? I don't believe there's any WR we could draft in this draft that is likely to produce as well as Hartline in our offense next season. I do believe there are several that have good odds of being better than in years 2 or 3 though.
     
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  31. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    You make too much sense. I think some people got so hell bent on blaming Hartline for Tannehill's lack of production they are too blind to see he is an asset to the offense. I am not the biggest Ireland fan, but glad to see he understands that and appears to be trying to lock him up before FA begins.

    Tannehill throwing to Hartline averaged 14.6 ypc and 8.46 ypa. Tannehill throwing to everyone else averaged 10.62 ypc and 6.21 ypa...why some people would want to get rid of a WR when the position is shallow and our QB averaged 4 more ypc and 2.24 more ypa when throwing to him makes no sense imo.
     
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  32. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I think you mistook his post as praise of Hartline. It really wasn't.
     
  33. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Thing is Rafi, you need to have Hartline's to play off of the Rook we bring in like White did with Julio Jones

    They also brought in Gonzo, imo this is the approach we should take, and along the way the Falcons jettisoned Jenkins.
     
  34. miamiron

    miamiron There's always next year

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    Either way get Hartline on the back with the number 1 to signify the number of tds he scores a season
    for the last 3 years
     
  35. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    That is somewhat misleading. Bess averaged 12.8 YPC and if you take away the three games where Hartline amassed nearly 50% of his yards....their YPC were identical. Beyond that we didn't have a receiver worthy of note, and you are including runningbacks, fullbacks, and tight ends in your equation and those are positions that almost never have a high YPC rate.

    People should learn to stop skewing numbers to make a point, and to use context in their perception of players.
     
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  36. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    I mean I'm sorry but I just don't think your #1 receiver should have:

    5 of 16 games with 2 receptions or less
    6 of 16 games with 3 receptions or less
    9 of 16 games with 4 receptions or less

    Those are marginal statistics for even a #2.

    We are talking about a man who aside from three games wasn't even a 600 yard receiver. A man who reached the end zone once as the primary target on a team with almost no-one else to throw to.
     
  37. AdamC13

    AdamC13 Well-Known Member

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    When you have the #27 rated QB throwing you the ball (#29 if both Smith and Kaepernick had enough passes to qualify) getting 1,083 yards on 128 targets is actually pretty damn good no matter how someone tries to hide those numbers. Do you realize C Johnson had 205 targets, Marshall 194, Wayne 194...

    Hartline was also targeted 7 times or less in 9 of 16 games?

    You appear to think I believe Hartline is a true #1, should be our #1, or whatever. I fall under the coach Philbin philosophy that it isn't about having a #1, it is about getting a deep group of quality WRs that create match-up problems with the opposing defense. Hartline, imo, has shown he is more than capable of being one of those WRs and significantly contributing to this offense.

    If the solution was to get a #1 WR then Miami would have made the playoffs the previous two years when Brandon Marshall was here instead of going 7-9 and 6-10 which is right in line with going 7-9 this year. And if the solution to being a great team revolved around having a #1 WR then the Bears and Lions should have been playing in the NFC championship game.

    Looks like Miami's FO agrees with that assessment as they are trying to sign him to a contract before FA. I haven't heard Long, Bush, Fasano, Starks, all productive players over their Dolphin careers, are in contract negotiations.

    I like this let's just subtract his best games approach. I can play that. Let's just subtract Peterson's best 3 games in which he rushed for a combined 621 yards. Is Peterson really MVP when he ends up with less than 1,500 yards?

    Or maybe we should subtract Tannehill's best 3 games...6 TD and 0 interceptions. So our QB put up in 13 of 16 games:
    226 comp, 402 att, 56.2%, 2,749 yards, 6 TD, 13 interception...68.82 QB rating

    I mean I'm sorry but a WR shouldn't be bashed too much when his starting QB:

    7 of 16 games 0 TD passes
    13 of 16 games 1 TD or less
    16 of 16 games 2 TD or less

    8 of 16 games 200 yards passing or less
    13 of 16 games 235 yards or less
    15 of 16 games 290 yards or less

    8 of 16 games 66.2 QB rating or less

    So tell me, how many times was Hartline actually targeted in the end zone? How many dropped TD passes did he have?

    Again, I am not saying Hartline should be confused with C Johnson, A Johnson, Fitzgerald, etc...but is he worth re-signing given the current state of affairs at WR? YES, he is imo.
     
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  38. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ha!!!
     
  39. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You said people should stop skewing numbers to make a point, yet you took out three of Brian Hartline's best games to prove a point.

    Can't wait until we resign this guy. That will be an epic thread!
     
  40. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Then would you confuse Hartline with Cecil Shorts?
    So while Shorts was busy creating 1 TD every 7.9 receptions with Henne & Gabbert, what was Hartline busy creating with better QB play? That's right, 1 TD created every 74 receptions. Oh and, Shorts also managed to boast a 9.24 average per attempt & 17.8 YPC.

    Just stop the excuse-making already... or at least watch the 2011 Packers-Lions game where Jordy Nelson created 3 TDs with Flynn at QB and not because Flynn was all-world that day; it's because Nelson, like many others, can make plays with the ball in his hands, something you seem to COMPLETELY ignore the concept of for some crazy reason. 74 times did Hartline have the ball in his hands, yet you act like Tannehill never gave him a chance. Gimme a break, man. 74 opportunities and 1 TD!! A blown coverage TD at that.

    Matt Flynn isn't the QB Tannehill is but look at what his receivers are capable of with the ball in the air and in their hands! Packer fans don't resort to pathetic excuses for a lack of GB receiver scoring production, and you know why--- it's b/c GB receivers make plays! Watch for yourself. By the way, QBR is a product of the entire passing game, not just the QB, so when an offense has crap at WR and a "top" target like Hartline who can't do squat with the ball in the air or in his hands, it's gonna reflect poorly on passer rating.

    I'll make it easy for you:
    5:31--- Nelson stiff arms CB for a TD (Jordy created that TD, which Hartline DOES.NOT.DO.)
    6:24--- 80 yard TD (all YAC)
    8:37--- Nelson 36 yard TD over the defender on a free play. (Jordy created that TD, too)
    11:16-- Nelson 58 yard TD; holds on despite defender's hand on it (Hartline can't do this on a short EZ pass w/o a defender knocking it out)
    12:23-- Driver 35 yard TD. splits defenders, 28 yards YAC.
    [video=youtube;Adud3fLmUJ8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Adud3fLmUJ8[/video]
    total that's 5 TDs and an additional 200+ yards Flynn's receivers created for him.
     
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