Barry Jackson Sports Buzz draft notes

I don't think Cordarrelle is worth the risk at 12, personally... But I think Elam is a far bigger reach at 12 than Cordarrelle.

 

That's a silly argument against taking defensive tackles, Pods. I have no idea WHY you downplay the importance of the position. Plenty of great defensive tackles have either had a defense built around them or have been a major influence on its success. You're just being obtuse. I'll name the one's who've contributed to a trip to the SB (or Championship prior to the SB).

Vince Wilfork (3 SB trips). Unarguable key to NE's defense.

Haloti Ngata (1 SB). Was a major component to one of the NFL's top defenses.

Casey Hampton (3 SB trips). Pitt doesn't have the same elite defensive success w/o the 5x Pro Bowler.

Warren Sapp (1 SB). Key to one of NFL's best defenses the past 20 years.

BJ Raji (1 SB). Was a key aspect of Dom Capers' scheme and NFL's top ranked 2010 defense.

Russell Maryland & Leon Lett (3 SB). Incredibly important to Dallas's outstanding D of the 90's.

Bryant Young & Dana Stubblefield (1 SB). Major factor in San Fran's great defense.

Leonard Marshall (2 SB). NY's awesome D of the 80's and early 90's wouldn't have been the same without him.

Michael Carter & Kevin Fagan (2 SB). San Fran's great D of the late 80's was only as good as their linemen up front allowed them to be.

William Perry & Steve McMichael (1 SB). Helped make the elite '85 Bears D.

Would Miami have had one of the NFL's top defenses w/o Betters, Baumhower, and Bokamper up front? David Woodley rode that #2 D to a SB.

Howie Long (1 SB)? The Raiders weren't the same without the Howinator.

Joe Green (4 SB). There's no Steel Curtain without Mean Joe.

Randy White (2 SB trips). HOF. Dallas's solid D of the mid 70's to early 80's was built around him.

Alan Page (4 SB trips). 70's Vikings aren't the same w/o the purple people eaters, and the purple people eaters are nothing w/o Page.

Bob Lilly (2 SB trips). Dallas's great D of the 60's to early 70's was built around him.

Curley Culp & Buck Buchanan (2 SB, 1 Championship). KC's elite D of the 60's disappears without those 2 HOFs in the middle.

Henry Jordan (2 SB, 2 Championships). This HOFer was an integral piece to the Packers elite D of the 60's (7 straight times D ranked top 2).

There was no Fearsome Foursome w/o Merlin Olsen & Rosie Grier.


Pods, if you think the odds are in your favor of building a great defense without a great interior, you're beyond baked at the moment WADR.

 

The entire argument got changed from my original premise, which was simply the learning curve or transition for a DT going from college to pros was less than at most other positions. Not whether they'll be All Pro, Pro Bowl, or anything else other than doing their job in an acceptable manner to garner a starting job or significant playing time. Padre seems to believe that for a DT going from college to pro that it is a much harder transition than for most or perhaps all other positions. WADR that premise is ludicrous to me.
WR and QB are generally much more difficult IMO. Also other than a few blue chippers, I think most OLTs have a steep learning curve going from college to pro.
One simple example is look at our two 7th round picks last year. Randall a DT, and Matthews a WR. Which one was able to earn playing time the soonest? Randall was ready by week 1 to play and do an acceptable job. Matthews didn't play till week 11. Matthews ended up with more snaps, but he had a steeper learning curve at WR than Randall did at DT.

 

Of course, but we already have the receivers who don't have the pure speed and unless you're Larry Fitzgerald, you're not taking him at 12 overall.

 

I think he's a very good player with outstanding speed and quickness who can do real damage with the ball in his hands. He tracks it well in the air, will go up out of his frame to take the ball but looks a little nervous over the middle. But a real talent

 

I think we should wait and see how they all run at the combine. I'm most interested in seeing Allen, Hopkins and Patterson run. It seems like some folks aren't expecting Hopkins to blow the doors off with his speed either, so it would be nice to see him also surprise them with some good 40 times, as well as Allen.

 

I'm not really bothered what Allen runs in shorts and a t-shirt. I can see enough of him not running away from people in games.

 

yeah but that is not the norm… as we all know

 

So if track times mean nothing to you, then you can just skip the combine and not waste your time.

You make it sound like Allen is just woefully slow. I don't agree. He is not a blazer with great long speed, but he is fast enough to be a solid all around WR in the pros. He's the type who is as fast as he needs to be. Actually probably compares to his peers better in game speed than he will in track speed. Now, thinking about it more, he'll probably run between a 4.55 and a 4.6 and hurt his value at the combine. He'll play on Sundays though, start for some team sooner than later, and do pretty well. That is my guess.

I wouldn't like him as much if paired with Hartline. Maybe we agree on that. If we signed Jennings and lose Hartline, I'd feel much better about Allen paired with Jennings. That would seem pretty balanced to me.
If we keep Hartline and don't sign Jennings, then IMO we need a guy like Wheaton to go with him. I'd rather sign Jennings if it is an either/or situation, and draft a couple of WRs in the top 3 rounds.

 

The value of Elam at 12 is not there… I 100% agree with you there. BUT I think he is going to be one of those guys that we look back at in 5 years and think "Damn how was he on the board that long?"

 

Track speed means something to me for sure. It's just that game speed means more. I think we both agree that Keenan Allen with his 4.55 speed is not what Miami needs given the players that we have. And even if we lost Brian Hartline after adding more speed, I can't for the life of me think why we'd bring in Brian Hartline's replacement with the twelfth overall pick.

 

Oh for sure. I guess I'd be one of the few that would be OK with the pick. I shudder to think of Martin as our LT

 

Depends. Do we get to draft his whole family also?

 

I think he's more than fast enough. Looks like a 4.4 guy to me. Gets off the LOS quickly. But Miami won't touch him.

 

Gosh Boom, if you see Allen as little more than Hartline with a better suntan, than we are not close in our opinion of him.

 

Let's see how things play out in free agency and what the Dolphins do at receiver there. Based on the present roster, I think the value Keenan Allen brings to the Dolphins is a big guy (6-3) that can get open, even though he doesn't have breakaway speed. Allen would be the threat in the red zone that Hartline is not - not to mention his YAC would be far superior to Hartline.

The Dolphins had that big receiver in Brandon Marshall (and I'm not saying that Keenan Allen equates to Brandon Marshall) - personally, having a big receiver that can get open is more important than a burner. (It would be nice to have both though.)

If the Dolphins get Jennings, I'd like to see a bigger receiver drafted in either the 1st or 2nd round to pair with him.

 

OK, this has been lost in translation some. We both agree thus:

1 Miami has no speed at WR
2 Miami needs speed at WR
3 Allen looks a Hartline speed guy
4 I suspect we will re-sign Hartline. Allen does what to our WR corp?
5 If we added speed at WR in FA and lost Hartline then drafted Allen, it's a little bit like for like as neither Allen or Hartline have speed.

 

Not sure how you figure much of that out about, especially his YAC being better.

 

I think Keenan is the most complete receiver coming out, if Ireland wants Wallace then one could say that Wallace, Allen, Hartline and Bess would be a complete unit where each skillset is different and complimentary.

 

Why does the receiving corps need 3 guys with pretty much the same skill set in Allen, Bess, and Hartline. I agree with Boom, if you re-sign Hartline, then there's little need for someone like Keenan Allen, especially if you've signed Mike Wallace. I think it'd be one or the other in terms of Allen vs. Hartline.

I'm still of the thought that you sign Greg Jennings, draft Cordarrelle Patterson, and try and find a mid-round guy with some speed and athleticism to him. Perhaps Marquise Goodwin fits that bill.

 

Well, just an observation on the draft and why we probably won't take Allen or Patterson

The way the draft works is a first rd pick pretty much has to have a lot of upside, but not a lot of bust potential.

Which is a cart before horse situation, but how it works, Allen may not have bust potential, but not a lot of upside, it's reversed for Patterson, so at the end of the day GM's just take the "safe guy who fit into that slot" so they cannot be accused of reaching or taking a player with high bust potential.

 

This is exactly right, we need WRs who compliment eachother and together can attack any part of the field. One of the reasons I liked Jacoby Jones in FA last year, not because I knew he would make a series of key plays in the playoffs and SB. Because his dynamic makes Brian Hartline and Davone Bess better players.

 

Da'Rick Rogers is similar to Demaryius Thomas to me.... but perhaps with a hair less speed. Not real twitchy but enough athleticism and shake to make guys miss, more fluid than shifty, and with the physicality to stiff-arm defenders to the ground, run through arm tackles, and drag tacklers a few yards.

I thought he handled his situation admirably and with humility, and it seemed as though he didn't feel like he was above Tenn Tech. It seemed like he felt he was a part of the team rather than it being Tenn Tech & Da'Rick Rogers. I never got the impression he felt he was too good for them. I could easily see this humbling experience and his year at Tenn Tech staying engrained in him b/c he doesn't seem like a bad kid to me, but rather seems like a kid who got caught up in the limelight & glory of being an elite young athlete, thought he was impervious, and simply made some stupid kid mistakes that he probably wishes he could've taken back based on how much it seemed to bother him to no longer be a part of the team and could only watch his teammates & friends play from the stands or television. In his case I truly believe it might've been a character-building experience that he'll look back on one day and be grateful it happened.

Patterson + Tavon Auston + Da'Rick Rogers + Pablo Escobar + Andre Ellington..... make it happen, Ireland.

 

To say Hartline and Allen have the same skill set is the same as saying Jordy Nelson and Hartline have the same skill set.

 

I hear the word is the Steelers believe the Browns will be the team making the heavy push for Mike Wallace. Perhaps we're looking at Jennings or/and Bowe. If it's Bowe, then Wheaton would be an ideal compliment at flanker.... or perhaps Tavon Austin in the slot.... or both. Bowe, Austin, Wheaton would be a combination that works for me.

 

Regardless of opinion, I don't think you'd want a receiving corps of Keenan Allen, Brian Hartline, and Davone Bess. There's no explosiveness.

 

Could be more than one team makes a heavy push for Wallace. Don't expect one will be Miami though.

 

Keep in mind, even that won't matter much unless we also find a Te who can threaten the Defense.

Two pronged problem really.

 

I'd be fine with a top 3 of Jennings, Allen and Bess. It would be a big upgrade, though perhaps not the most optimal trio we could come up with. If the 4th was Wheaton or Goodwin, that would be much better.

Other than straight line speed, I see little similar between Allen and Hartline, and on a track the latter would likely post the better time. Allen is a much more complete receiver than Hartline is though.

 

That may be a little too much to hope for, but I was just thinking how I'd like to see us double up on Patterson and Rogers. If both panned out that gives ya two very complete receivers. I love Reed, but I love Escobar just as much, and either would be very nice to get. You are my Clemson authority, so if you say Ellington to pair with Miller, then I am on board.

 

I totally forgot about Escobar.
Yeah, Ellington would fit nicely here and do well in our blocking scheme IMO. I think he's a more natural of a runner than Spiller was at Clemson. I'd be happy with your Oregon kid, too.

 

I don't see how you can say Allen, hart and Bess have similar skillsets..

Wallace gives you the speed thats missing, and underrated when it comes to his route tree.

Allen gives you an all around game with good rac ability, with great hands.

Bess working the blood zone and crossing stuff with his ability to jerk the defender off the route.

Hartline with his deceptive game and ability to work on the perimeter and sideline..

I see a harmonious unit there.

 

I'm about signing Jennings, just trying to come up with scenarios that make a complete unit that compliments each other.

 

we've also heard that we have a bit more interest in Wallace, not sure how good the source is but.

 

But your leaving out Wallace in the analogy..

Allen, hart and Bess bring completely different elements to the field..

 

I did that purposefully. Do you really think Jeff Ireland's going to re-sign Hartline, sign Mike Wallace, AND draft Keenan Allen (or any other receiver) in the 1st round? Be honest.

 

None bring speed or provide a downfield threat. He's more athletic than Hartline, I'll give you that. But he's not as athletic or fast as Cordarrelle Patterson. And for my money, I bet he'd have a hard time beating Hartline in a straight ahead foot race.

I'll stand by what I said, I think you would be successful with Allen or Hartline, along with Bess and someone else in the receiving corps. Not both.

 

If the value is there, yes, it's possible, but with Patterson rather than Allen. I don't believe Ireland downplays receiver one bit; I think fans believe that's the case <understandably so> when in reality he cares more about his board & value than need. If Patterson looks like the best value at 12, I don't think Ireland would pass on him just b/c he's a receiver.