I was just thinking about this because of a question posed by Bpk in another thread. I love Cornellius Carridine. Love him. I was intrigued with him when I looked at 2011 tape of all the pass rushers, and fell for him when I got hold of his spring game tape where he played a ton because neither Brandon Jenkins nor Bjoern Werner played in the spring game. Everything I have seen of him this year has only made me like him even more than that. Simon doesn't see it on Bjoern Werner and several times he's said he sees better out of Tank Carridine. I haven't really argued, even though Werner is one of my very favorite players in this whole Draft, because I like Carridine so much it would feel like splitting a fine point. When Brandon Jenkins (whom I was luke warm about) got hurt, I declared that the Florida State defense would actually be better for starting Carridine in his place, for which I received much chiding (mostly on Twitter). Bpk asked the question in another thread. Since we're identifying all these edge rush problems in all these pass rushers, who really has the most dangerous edge rush from a down position? Who is the best and most consistent at "bending the arc" on the outside rush? Dion Jordan's outside rush is predictable and he gets swept behind too easily. It needs work. Barkevious Mingo doesn't show the balance to finish plays, which is what I keep bringing up whenever talking about how he's a fairly one-dimensional player that doesn't make good on that one-dimension. Jarvis Jones is a good pass rusher from an up position but I don't know that he's really good from a down position. Really the most consistent guys are Alex Okafor, Corey Lemonier, Tank Carridine and Bjoern Werner. Alex Okafor gets by on his hands a little bit more than his pure explosion, and one of my criticisms of Corey Lemonier over the years has actually been that he's not as good at flattening the edge as he really should be. Actually I think his unheralded teammate Dee Ford might actually be better at it. So my initial answer was Bjoern Werner and I still think that could be true. But as I thought about it, Carridine comes a close 2nd and if you sit here and tell me you think he's 1st, I'm not going to argue with you. Think back to last year. Who was the one player in that Draft you'd rely upon for an edge rush in an absolutely crucial situation if you had one player for one play? When I did a radio roundtable with fellow draftniks our answer was unanimous between five of us. The answer was Bruce Irvin. Yet we all had him down in the 2nd or 3rd rounds. Come draft day, he goes #12 overall. So if there's a chance Cornellius Carridine is THE best edge rusher in the entire NFL Draft, why the hell are we talking about him with our picks at 42 overall or 54 overall? Just because of his torn ACL? Well, let's be honest about that. It's an intimidating injury, but it might be that it has more bark than bite (a phrase I've recently come to love seeing applied to Barkevious Mingo). James Andrews recently said the success rate for the surgery is now up into the 95 percent range, with factors that make it go up or down. Tank is young, and I've not heard that the injury was particularly gruesome as far as collateral damage to surrounding tissues. I'm not sure I would say that he plays a position (such as RB, WR or CB) where the torn ACL would have the most effect. No I'm not saying that type of thing wouldn't affect a defensive end at all, just that it has a greater effect on other positions. Bottom line is this. I've loved this guy a while and if I'm being honest I like him at least as much as guys that I'm talking about in the top 15 for our 12 overall pick...guys like Alex Okafor, Jarvis Jones and Dion Jordan. He probably fits the defense better than either of those players. I like him better than Damontre Moore. I like him better than Bark-no-bite Mingo. So why are we talking top 50 for a top 15 player? Does an ACL really carry that much inherent risk if a team is SMART about the pace of his comeback? As for what I love in his game, just watch for yourself. I see Jason Pierre-Paul comparisons tossed around, for guys like Zeke Ansah. I don't see that comparison at all. But the guy I do see as being similar to a Jason Pierre-Paul is Tank Carridine. [video=youtube;eXmrBwNmRgA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eXmrBwNmRgA[/video] [video=youtube;zhlxtEl9Q-k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhlxtEl9Q-k[/video] [video=youtube;zOfp9p7Tbeg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOfp9p7Tbeg[/video] [video=youtube;OYUQ3moYdho]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYUQ3moYdho[/video] [video=youtube;EZL9tSTiF3w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZL9tSTiF3w[/video] Watch him play and then be honest with yourself. Where was this guy headed before he took an ACL injury? Where would he have found himself amongst all defensive ends in the Draft, if his momentum wasn't so thoroughly stopped dead in its tracks? Top 3? Top 2? Top 1? I can't say for sure but when he got hurt I did say right away this guy was heading for being a sure 1st round pick until he took the ACL injury. Thing is, Willis McGahee was the same way, and his knee injury was GRUESOME, and he still went in the 1st round. Something to ponder.
As an FSU fan, I saw three defensive ends. Jenkins who flashes as a pure edge rusher with speed who went out and abused players like Anthony Castonzo but who didn't quite train on. Then you have Werner who to me continually just looks like a guy and I've outlined reasons elsewhere so I won't bore anyone to death again, suffice to say that........Chris is my boy and he loves him and THAT'S what makes the draft great, no?? And then you have Tank; quick, great size, great quickness off the snap, ability to run the arc, ALWAYS giving the left tackle, the better tackle, fits. And he has a great motor. You will see him chasing thirty or forty yards downfield. Watch the Clemson game and Tajh Boyd goes walkabouts for thirty or forty has downfield and the man who catches him from behind is Tank. I think he's significantly better than Werner. I also think he's a top ten pick pre injury. But how would the reaction be if Jeff Ireland drafted an injured end at 12 knowing. He's on a win now ticket? To me, the answer comes in free agency. If he NAILS that - and he can if he goes balls out - then it would make picking Tank or Jonathan Cooper or Ertz, etc., much easier. But make no mistake, Tank is a seriously good football player.
BTW, I've not seen that Duke game. Watch that and tell me that Bjoern Werner is better than Carradine. I'm serious.
Not to nitpick, but Irvin went #15 overall. Given how the game is played today with the emphasis on/need for a solid pass rush to stop these modern offenses that are highly skilled and have benefited from rules changes favoring the passing game, spending a premium draft pick on a situational pass rusher doesn't seem like such a bad idea, especially one who can expand his role over time to more of a starter role. And Irvin is more of a one trick pony than most- it's just a very good trick from an undersized DE, the guys we're looking at this year seem to have more complete games imo. Carradine is obviously far more of a complete DE than Irvin. As to ACL injuries- I know them well, and they're nothing to sneeze at, don't let an anomaly like Adrian Peterson fool you. There are aspects of nerve regeneration that take time to heal, if they do completely- and I'm not talking just about extreme examples like Robert Edwards. Carradine at #12? No way. In the 2nd rd? Sure, maybe. You also have to ask yourself, and maybe Boomer can help with this as an FSU guy, why couldn't he beat out Brandon Jenkins, who I'm guessing will be picked in the 3rd or 4th rounds? If Jenkins didn't get injured what would Carradine's draft status be now, how much playing time would he have gotten in his college career? I'm asking because I don't know, and I don't mean for that to be harsh or undue criticism. It's just that when a college player can't start for the majority of his career that has to be a question mark imo, balanced out by the fact that FSU brings in so much talent every year and those things happen. But Carradine- a talented player but nonetheless a long term backup and a guy who recently shredded his knee at #12? That's a tall order. ps Here are some Carridine highlights, nice closing speed on that 1st play: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWHxJk4XAKA
Bjoern is a better football player than Carridine, IMO. He recognizes plays better and plays more heads up ball, is stronger against the run, and I also think he's also a slightly more consistent pass rusher overall. But Werner is not going to make it to #12 overall and Carridine is, and Carridine is very good, hence the thread.
I haven't watched all the videos you posted yet, but my initial impression is that he's as good as Bjoern. I would agree that BW has better awareness, but I would also say that Tank has a better motor.
Someone does need to explain the aforementioned Jenkins/Carradine dilemma. Can somebody supply us with a brief timeline or something?
Ok, this makes more sense to me now, he's a JC guy: "He played mad or determined. Or maybe both. But the results were staggering for a defensive end — Carradine had 90 tackles as a freshman, 119 as a sophomore and finished his junior-college career with 26 sacks. The Division I schools were back. With his two-year degree in hand, Carradine chose Florida State over Alabama, Georgia and South Florida. He enrolled early in January 2011 and made an immediate impact. “Tank was a monster,” Florida State linebacker Vince Williams said. “We used to tell people all the time. People can only go off what they see. We used to see him in practice, and he was ridiculous. The fact that he was unheard of until Brandon Jenkins’ tragic injury, that’s even crazier.” “His effort is ridiculous,” Florida State coach Jimbo Fisher said. “Tank’s got a motor.” Carradine is fast and powerful, but it is that motor that might separate himself from other defensive ends. And he has instincts to read the blocks and quickly see how a play is unfolding, whether he’s chasing the quarterback or a ball carrier." http://www.foxsportsflorida.com/11/...-where-he-bel/landing_fsu.html?blockID=821115 For what it's worth, when I look at the film and from what I remember from the FSU games, especially late in the year, there's a lot to like about both Carradine and Werner. I was looking at this FSU/Clemson clip, and I don't know how anyone wouldn't like Carradine's or Werners 1st step and how they turn the corner in the pass rush. If anything, I would day Werner is a tad better, I liked seeing the comparison at :06 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZL9tSTiF3w Also, on the next play at :12 it's interesting to see Werner drop back pretty smoothly into coverage. Then at 1:43 something stands out to me about Carradine- the way that he's able to use fast twitch quickness to make adjustments as he tracks down Taj Boyd- not an easy feat. If you were to draw a line following Carradine it would look like a slithering snake. It's a little subtle, but that eye/foot coordination and how quickly he reacts slithering towards Boyd is impressive. You can see something similar at 1:37- it's a nuance, but if he doesn't or can't make that slight adjustment, then there's no sack. I don't know who I would pick first, Werner or Carradine, but I think that good arguments can be made for both. I would say that Werner is the better pure passer rusher (the guy has a great first step and he's got some very good lean, turns the corner well) but not by all that much. Overall athletic ability and length- Carradine. Better motor- by all accounts Carradine. Higher upside- Carradine. But from my perspective if the Dolphins were to draft a DE that they wanted to put right in there and have him provide some pass rush and disruption- I'd be fine with Werner. As to the whole ACL issue- if you haven;t experienced it, consider yourself lucky. You have that artificial band stapled in there- either cadaver piece or they cut it out of you, ie your patellar tendon- and there are consequences to that. Nerve damage, etc- they pretty much ravage the patellar tendon for the sake of the ACL. And as far as I know and where my staples are the new ligament isn't dead center, ie the crux or "cruciate" and isn't exactly the same, right in that very central bone area. It's ok for a working stiff, but a pro athlete is a different story. And sometimes the interior nerve damage (not the patellar nerve damage) can take 2 years to heal if it ever does 100%. You just can't count on Adrian Peterson being the new template for ACL recovery, it doesn't work that way. As Mark Schlereth said, sometimes it's better to just consider 90% the new 100%- the point being, Carradine post-op may never be quite as good with those subtle, important change of direction movements as in the 1:43 piece of the clip. ps I don't know what Shanahan was thinking as per RG III, and you could tell from that play- the torque and see/almost feel the ligament pop/disconnect- that he popped it. Then Shanahan's "but but but RGIII said that he was ok" schtick- icing on the cake that something bad happened for sure. Anyway- Carradine is mighty impressive, and although the ACL damage is obviously a negative, if we could get him in the 2nd or maybe even 3rd round? Bring it on, I'd love to have him.
Tank was something of a local legend here in Cincinnati in his high school days at Taft High. His coach was Mike Martin, the former Bengals receiver and kick returner. I believe Taft also produced Vaughn Booker, a DE who was also with the Bengals and maybe one or two other teams. Taft is in a tough part of Cincinnati, and 95% of the kids that go there are from pretty tough upbringings. I'm not sure if Tank fits that bill, though I've heard stories that his brother was/is in jail for stabbing someone. There was a story about Pete Carroll snooping around Taft practices when he was back at USC trying to scout Tank. I believe Tank originally committed to Illinois (Mike Martin's alma mater) before the journey to JUCO and FSU. I'd love to see Miami land him. I've also heard Tank was pretty legendary during pick-up basketball games at local rec centers all over town. Cincinnati actually has a pretty solid summer league that usually brings out a good mix of actual players from UC, Xavier, Ohio State, Dayton, Miami OH, and even some guys from schools outside of the region. O.J. Mayo and former UC Bearcat Nick Van Exel played in this league. I'm pretty sure Tank did as well and held his own. Heck of an athlete.
These are exactly the same 4 I was thinking as well. I was sold on Carradine after the Clemson game. Personally, I think we should use our #12 pick on the best value at that spot (Ansah, Richardson, Milliner, Patterson, etc) and then hope Carradine makes it to 2a or 2b, which I don't see why he wouldn't, so that we'd get tremendous value for the 2nd round pick.
As if to prove your point, CK, this is a guy I have not yet 'gotten to' focusing on and watching properly (except as I watched Werner). Too low on my list. Btw, I agree that Ansah is not JPP. N-O-T. The only similarity is in wondering if there is far more ceiling in him once he is developed. But their style and traits are not the same, imo. Tank, at 6'5" 251 is another guy in need of some NFL-style eating and lifting. Okay, I'm watching your Tank vids and making notes.... Duke - right off, I LOVE his stance. Very low. Very coiled. Guys with this stance, I find, really use the same burst as they use for vertical leaping. This is why Wake is so deadly. Have you seen his vertical? Line up LOW and get that burst from the legs and DJ-butt-area. - his stance is a bit of a tell though. he is more upright when he is not rushing, but read-and-reacting. If I can notice, top tier OTs will notice. hope they coach that out of him. - Oh ****ing my, do I love him already. GREAT inside move, and perfectly done with the outside blitzer coming. PLus, he finishes by whacking the QB hard. - would like to see more lateral quicks when RB's pass him - Oh yes. inside moves... and good outside rush. Dips shoulder, even gets the arm over when the LT almost stops him. QB hurry. Where have you been hiding this guy. Now we're talking. - WALKS the tackle back with pure power for QB hurry. - THIS is a complete rusher. Inside. Outside. AND through you with power. - Are you ****ing kidding me. Relentless attempts to get to QB by any means necessary. Will try MULTIPLE tacks and attempts to beat his man. Dion Jordan tries ONE tick and if it doesn;t work he's done... THIS guy has a BAG of tricks and uses them ALL on every rush. YUM. - QB hit and hurry. BEATS the tackle again. These are not coverage sacks. This man BEATS his O-lineman. Too many of Dion and Damontre's sacks were late, second effort, flushed from the pocket sacks. THIS mofo will get you IN the pocket. - He has hit or hurried the QB on ALMOST EVERY PLAY so far. - Either Duke is garbage, or this guy is fantastic. - Jesus, he threw the LT aside life he was standing between him and a spread-legged Victoria Secret model... then went and hit the QB. Again. - He gets pressure every single dropback. Gotta see him vs better competition before I blow my load though. - holds POA well - beats his man 2 out of every 3 pass rushes - slow to get to runningbacks when they near him and pass him - dominated that game Wake Forest - WF Cheerleaders don;t match Floridas in looks. Maybe in GPA. - Bjoern's get off looks faster. - You know what? The only thing hurting Tank's sack #'s is Bjoern getting there FIRST sometimes! Tank beats his man and WOULD get there, but Bjoern's already there. - Oh wow, I love seeing how many steps Werner takes, compared to Tank at the snap. In slo-motion, I have Bjoern covering 2.5 yards in two steps while Tank has covered almost the same (maybe slightly less) in the same time and steps. Where the difference really shows is at the bottom of the arc, where Bjoern BENDS IT AT A HIGHER SPEED.... instead of slowing he LEANS MORE. Tank doesn't have the same body lean, so slows a bit at the bottom of the arc in order to turn. (This is like the angles at the outside turns of race tracks, helping you corner sharper while maintaining high speed). - really holds his POA nicely. Surprising at his size. Plays with good leverage. - uses his hands well with OL, but does he do it consistently? I feel like, on runs, he sometimes lets the OL get too close into his body. - Another Werner sack with Tank there .25 of a second after. We may have a great gem who was hidden in the shadow of a star. How many sacks does he get if he is not opposite Werner? - good at locating the runningback in a crowd - gets his hands up at the right time Miami - Miami tackle handling him better. - BIG tackle. Size difference is a problem for Tank - as good as he is as a rusher, I expected him to suck against the run. He doesn't. He's good at holding the POA, and he locates backs well. He doesn't miss a lot of tackles. He's an average to above average run defender and a very very good pass rush prospect. - once he is after a QB, QB's have a hard time eluding him. Damontre can be sidestepped, but Tank will close in on even the squirmiest QBs. - okay... quality of competition is definitely keeping him from impacting the QB in this game. - long stretch with OL winning the battles. I guess Dukle and Wake F's tackles were not great. lol. - Werner with a sack USF - comes unblocked from the blindside and doesn;t get there in time. - I'm starting to wonder if his second gear is as good as his first step. Once he's striding, he doesn't arrive at the QB with suddeness. - doing a good job rushing a very mobile QB, in that he cannot overcommit to the outside rush or this kid will take off. So he must rush through his blocker, and keep his lane. Makes it tougher to beat a guy, for sure. - gets push on the LT. Power. - Goalline, moves his OL back a bit. Nice. - RB chipping on him a lot. Double attention. - Werner is consitnly off the line and back to the QB quicker - I expected more out of Tank in this game, tbh Clemson - some nice rushes, sacks - on his *** on a run play - good technique when he runs the arc. Kid's solid. - I feel like I am watching a Pro end. - walks LT back with power - holds POA twice - some nice hurries - missed a sack (bad tackling) OKay, now I want to see how he looked against Florida, late in the season. Did he improve from the playing time? Florida - good rush on first play. - QB hit, but couldn;t get there in time for sack. - 3rd and inches. he holds POA, but DTs don't - great hustle tracking QB DOWNFIELD - getting held a bunch - meh, youtube won;t load the game What I love about watching this is, Werner will be Wake. Meaning, I am getting to see what happens when O-lines have to slide protection to Werner and let Tank do his thing. Which is what will happen in Miami. Remember, he is also working against the probably more talented LT. Summary: I like him. I like him as a fit for our defense. I like his rushing, outside, inside and bullrush. I like his strength, accelration, reading the run, holding the POA. This guy is good. Without the ACL injury, he's easily a 1st round guy. With that question mark, maybe a late first at best. More likely a 2nd rounder... depending on what medical staffs think at the combine, anywhere from a a low 1st to a 3rd rounder. Assuming a normal recovery, I'd gladly take him with one of our second round picks. Go 1) Banks CB 2a) Stedman Bailey WR then package the low 3rd and 2b to move up again for Tank Carradine DE. There are SO many ways this draft can go right. It'd take a moron to mess it up with all the talent out there at DE and WR though the first two rounds.
Also... [video=youtube;LSBdKCfuDDM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSBdKCfuDDM [/video] Nothing really informative in there, though.
No but there's a lot of compromising video floating around out there of Bjoern having his way with offensive tackles.
Will be curious to see who the other second round DE's are with Tank. Sounds like Datone Jones may be another option around where Tank goes.
Have to bump this, given the debate over Ansah. tank Carradine is not getting near the credit he deserves. This guy, IMO, is everything Damontre Moore is billed to be but isn't. I don't think he dominates in the NFL, because he didn't show as well against higher caliber opponents, but he is a complete package, physically, technique wise, power, speed, run d, pass rush, and just ready to play in the NFL. If his knee checks out, I want him. The problem is... At what spot? And where do other teams intend to take him? I would love to steak him with our high second, but that's a real risk. It only takes one team who believes in him to snatch him away at the bottom of the first. If healthy, I think all the talk is between who's the best DE in the draft... The one guy from Florida State, or the other guy from Florida state. It would be between him and Werner. The injury is the only reason he is not top ten.
Exactly. No comparison between the two. I'd think very hard about taking him at 2a regardless of what we do in round 1. I thought about the dual FSU thing as well..... and then add in that other Criminole who isn't far behind them. lol It's not like FSU doesn't have last year's #1 recruit behind them waiting in the wings.
He's a fantastic pass rusher. Not a stout run defender by any means, in terms of physical power and and gap control, but a guy with an excellent motor that gets off blocks and makes plays on the ball. Worst I can say about him is he's not Jadaveon Clowney.
Well, here's the question: if you go from Odrick to Tank on run downs, do we have the right LBs behind him to not have problems? On run downs it's on Misi's side, right?
. "You'd love to steak him" Is there something you wanna tell us BK...I'm here for you brother, no judgements buddy..
Interesting homonym, one that Dracula likely gets a chuckle from. Barry tried to steak him...... but he ate it.
Yeah I think so. Our linebackers unit is especially big. Koa Misi is a former defensive end and Karlos Dansby is a giant for a MLB.
Probably the best thing about Tank Carridine is he is used to playing on the right side of the defensive line over left tackle. That makes him complement well with Cameron Wake. He would be an A+ acquisition by all means.
Just saw a mock on NFL.com where Tank goes in the first round. ****. I don't think he's making it to us in the second. too many smart teams. This is the best DE in the draft, folks, except maybe Werner.
Also it should be noted... Matt Miller of Bleacher Report (the guy that's pretty much in charge of the Draft section...not just some unpaid columnist) has said that Tank Carridine is shooting for a pro day to happen before the Draft. This must mean that he's progressing very well from the ACL injury indeed. Miller also mentions that pre-injury, Carridine was running 4.6 and bench pressing 500 lbs. He's 1st round. We should get used to that notion. It's ok. There are other fish in the sea. Unless we take him 12 overall. Then he's our fish, lol.
Is there a trade down option? Get Carradine in the low 20's while acquiring another pick (second round)? Load up some more pick wise and get a young stud DE to solve pass rushing problems. If Miami resigns Sean Smith/FA equivalent, I could be OK with Carradine at 12. If not, going to be hard to pass on DM/Banks if either is available.
If he performs lights-out at his pro day AND the combine, and checks out medically, I'd be fine with him at 12th overall. But it would be too bad we didn't get a crack at a MAJOR steal at the top of the second.
There's no hope whatsoever of Carridine doing anything at the Combine. He's like 3 months off an ACL. He'll be lucky if he can work out before the draft. That will still be only 5 months off the ACL.
