We'll be just fine with Jennings, Bailey & Patton and Mathews and Bess. We were two FGs away from being 9-7 with only Hartline & Bess.
yeah man, I'm really done with these types of players..not willing to give chances to..if you can't realize by now that you should be humble and grateful and that your attitude should be about working on your craft, the piss off...you play a game and make millions, ungrateful bastards.
I agree with your frustration here. And my overall point isn't even that the Dolphins should not pursue this. My point is that the Miami Dolphins that traded away Brandon Marshall for Michael Egnew and a mid-3rd are not the Miami Dolphins that will trade a pick for Percy Harvin.
As far as defensive ends go, Cornellius Carridine of Florida State is considered by many (not me) to be a 2nd tier prospect but I think he has 1st tier ability straight up. His injury is one that has a 95% success rate for recovery, yet there's still an historical stigma associated with it. Two other 2nd tier guys I like dominated their respective All Star games in a way that reminded me of how Marques Colston dominated the Shrine Game and then Brandon Marshall dominated the Hula Bowl...albeit at different positions. I loved those two coming out. This year's pair are Cornelius Washington of Georgia (Senior Bowl) and Devin Taylor of South Carolina. Both players have suffered a little bit from being surrounded by a bunch of talented guys that had the ability to stand out more than them. But they're both good players. Washington is more of a pure pass rusher a la Mark Anderson/Cliff Avril. Devin Taylor...I really don't want to say who he reminds me of because it's not fair to either player. But suffice it to say, he did really well and I would take him in a heartbeat. As for the wide receiver position, it depends on whom you consider 1st tier and 2nd tier. I guess Keenan Allen has long been considered 1st tier. I have my reservations with him. Cordarrelle Patterson is getting 1st tier recognition from some, jeers from others. I would take him. The next level for me contains Stedman Bailey, Markus Wheaton and Terrance Williams. Quinton Patton is on deck for that group, just really interested in seeing how the Combine shakes out for all of them. Lots of evaluators who pretend they're already working for NFL teams will try and mimic those NFL teams by telling you the Combine shouldn't matter. That doesn't make sense to me unless you've got incredible contacts and you already know what all these guys have been running at campus testings. NFL teams have those contacts which is why many think the Combine tests don't matter much...but then, I think they're lying about that too because I've seen it matter to them. They just like to pretend it doesn't. Otherwise, guys like us that don't have all the information, the Combine is pretty important for us. It definitely adds to the process.
Considering how much the coaching staff stresses knowing the playbook, I have a hard time seeing two rookies seeing any significant time at the WR position.
They were learning brand new offenses though. Greg Jennings started. James Jones started. Randall Cobb contributed.
For what I want, they'd be highly drafted rookies, so they should be asked to do a lot. If a QB can start and thrive as a rookie, then it shouldn't be crazy to expect that of WRs.
I agree in general, but there are some rookies who could see some quality time due to being more polished, and there are a few others who could see action simply b/c they're playmakers whom Sherman & Philbin can scheme up simpler ways to get the ball in their hands. Hopefully we'll be in the position where we don't have to rush anyone along.
Well, it apparently is fine in a Philbin offense since seems to keep happening. Again, we'd have GJ, Bess & Matthews still in my scenario. Its not like I'm asking rookies to be #1 & #2.
Lamar Miller and Egnew both come to mind and players that wouldn't see the field because the staff feared they would make mistakes. QB really is the 2nd hardest position to transition from though, behind QB. On top of the mental side, its a pretty big physical transition too. A lot of the stuff WRs are learning, they've never had to do before. Certainly its possible for a WR to be good enough to come in and start right away, but I would very surprised to see that happen.
And yet its happened plenty in the NFL and specifically, in Philbin's offense. Plus, like I said, there's still Jennings, Bess & Matthews.
Did the staff show the willingness to do that for anyone? Lamar Miller? Egnew? From everything I heard them say, it seemed like the coaching staff put a premium on having the mental side down before seeing significant time.
Jones and Cobb were both #3 WRs. Greg Jennings is really the only one who was a starter as a rookie. So you're essentially relying on drafting the next Greg Jennings.
And? You asked who started at 2 or 3 for a Philbin offense. Point being: 2011 Hartline, Bess, Nannee, Matthews < 2012 Jennings, Bess, Matthews, Bailey & Patton. I really don't see the problem you guys do.
Hmmm, you make it sound like the large lesbian sister is his alter ego, rather than a totally separate person.
I think you're probably aiming to split hairs about what is considered a "#1" and "#2" and "#3" in order to make your point. Personally I'd rather lay out the data and let people draw their own conclusions. Jordy Nelson - 527 snaps (Rookie 2008) Randall Cobb - 290 snaps (Rookie 2011) Rishard Matthews - 236 snaps (Rookie 2012) Now, obviously I don't have snaps data prior to 2008. But I do have Targets data. James Jones - 80 targets (Rookie 2007) Greg Jennings - 104 targets (Rookie 2006)
Right, and last season Miami's #2 WR had over 100 targets. So essentially you need to draft the next Greg Jennings.
I think you're splitting hairs and arguing semantics in order to make a point. James Jones had 80 targets in 2007 as a rookie. Greg Jennings had 85 targets that year. Besides, you specifically asked for #2 and #3 receivers. But now you're giving the impression that #3 receivers don't count. Also in 2008, Jordy Nelson was also clearly a #3 receiver, which is what you asked for examples of, as he had 500+ snaps (3rd-most amongst WRs) and 55 targets (3rd-most in the offense).
No, I was referring to having rookies as #2 and #3. Certainly having a rookie see time as the #3 receiver isn't very far-fetched.
At no point in that post did I make any inclination that was the order they'd be in. That was an assumption on your part.
Me too. I'm not so sure Harvin is worth the likely headaches that will come with him. Not meaning his own migraines, but the ones he causes other people. Choking out his WRs coach? For fvck sake, that is crossing an unforgivable line for me. I don't care if the WR coach is as simple minded as Alfred E Newman or George W Bush. You just don't go there. Too many red flag in his resume me for me. Worse than Marshall IMO. Sign Jennings, draft any two of Patterson, Hopkins, Patton, Austin, Wheaton, Bailey. I'd keep Bess. He is solid, proven and reliable. If you got to the point where he is your 4th WR, that is a pretty solid corps of WRs. Ideal for me would be probably Jennings, Hopkins, Patton, Bess, Matthews.
You're changing your argument. You asked the question which rookie wide receivers in Joe Philbin's offense have been featured as #2 and #3 wide receivers. Very clearly there have been several that fit this description. Greg Jennings, James Jones, and Jordy Nelson all played #2 or #3 receiver. Randall Cobb and Rishard Matthews probably ranked about as #4's.
Jones played in 16, started 9 as a rookie. So over half the time he started. Jennings started 11 of 14 games played as rookie. Not enough difference to mention, unless one just likes to split hairs.
My bad. I was assuming that they were in the order you listed them. Seems like we are in agreement then.
Well that's a bit of a spurious point to be making. You don't often find two rookies in the top 3 of a wide receivers unit period. If that's the point I had brought up to you back in 2009 about the cornerback position, tell me when a Bill Parcells/Tony Sparano/Paul Pasqualoni team has ever started two rookies at corner, I'd be implying that it would be impossible. Yet it happened. It's not something you can look at coaching staff's history and say oh yeah this coaching staff totally has a tendency to start two rookies at the same position. That's dumb. It's all situation-based. Miami needed new blood at corner in 2009. That made it more likely to happen even if the coaching staff had never done it before.
Fact is there are good quality players (Jennings, Wallace) out there that are every bit as good as Harvin and wouldn't require us to give up anything in return.
