I think the criticism is most appropriate when a linebacker seems to shy away from them and give up ground. In my opinion you're not really expecting Manti Te'o to shed the blocks he was faced with the other night. But you do need him to stand his ground and try and keep things tight inside, which I thought he did.
Some mock drafts have us taking Warmack in the 1st. Wouldn't that draw cries of protest toward Ireland if he did take Warmack? Simply because he is an OL. Regardless of how good he is.
Yes it would. But since when has Jeff Ireland cared? For the record I think Jon Cooper is more likely to be revered by this front office staff.
I'd much rather take Chance Warmack at 12 than Manti.....I don't think Ireland will care if the fans are unhappy or not if he has Warmack rated that highly. As a fan I wouldn't be upset that we are taking a Olineman, I would be upset that we've spent so many high picks on a line that is pretty much garbage and has been for years. Some teams never take olinemen early and do just fine, we can't put together a good oline with top draft picks, its crazy at this point. I would think that depending on what we want to do with some of our older LBs that Manti is in play with this pick.....I am leery of him after this bowl game, I know its one bowl game but he has played a cake schedule and there is a huge difference between Olinemen in the SEC or the NFL for that matter and Purdue/Pitt, etc.
I'm going to go ahead and say it- given that the #12 slot is problematic and we'll probably miss out on the top tier of pass rushers, the DBs available at #12 will be most likely be of questionable value and the WRs seem to be of value in the late 1st rd/2nd rd as opposed to the top 12 picks, would it really be all that bad to draft a stud Guard like Warmack, given the need? No one really wants that, especially given the Parcells/Ireland OL track record of spending high picks on OL and our desperate playmaking needs. But the draft board is what it is, as is the #12 slot... I will now wait for the electronic apples, rotten tomatoes and other assorted vegetable and fruit products to metaphorically bombard my head.
I don't see the worth in the idea. I'm not as big a fan of Warmack as everyone else. He's fine and dandy, extremely well coached, balanced, powerful, good frame, etc. But I'm not sure what he's got that a good offensive line coach couldn't give to a guy you find in the 3rd or 4th round. I'm still not sure about Johnthan Banks but I certainly don't see Dee Milliner as questionable at the 12 spot. Nor Cordarrelle Patterson. I think Zeke Ansah would be more questionable than them, IMO. And Dion Jordan though I like would be a question mark as he's making a position switch, which is always a question mark. Sheldon Richardson would be as well. You usually don't see guys that are slated for position switches going as high as people think they're going to go. Still tough to see how a Jarvis Jones figures into the defense. Dion Jordan for that matter as well. And Keke Mingo.
For the life of me I can't get on board with Ansah. Would my stomach turn just a little bit if we took Warmack? Yes. But in my limited opinion he's the real deal. Very powerful, and to use the popular phrase he blocks well on the second level, I think that he moves very well. Good pass pro from what I've seen, good lateral movement and quickness for a powerful man of his size. I'll put it this way- I think that Milliner will be gone by #12. You make a good case for Patterson, that wouldn't be a bad pick imo at #12 but maybe the Bills beat us to the punch. Mingo or Ansah? I'd take Mingo first, but I wouldn't be thrilled with the pick. It depends on how the board falls, but there should be pass rushers, receivers and DBs available in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. If Jake Long bolts, maybe Martin goes to LT and Jerry goes to RT. Who knows. I saw Andy Reid a little while ago on ESPN talking about the importance of drafting for value- same old pablum, but it makes sense. All I'm saying is maybe it's better this year to take value rather than reach and then plug needs with our extra picks. That even rubs me the wrong way a bit this year given our plethora of needs, but I do see Warmack as a very solid player at a position that's been a thorn in our side for the last several years. No one really wants another OL, but from my point of view some good players at our need positions- pass rusher, DB and WR- will likely be available in rds 2 and 3. What would Ozzie Newsome do? I think that if he were in our shoes he would at least consider Warmack and draft for need with the multiple picks that follow.
Can we just say **** the rules and draft Clowney a year early? Sent from my DROID RAZR HD using Tapatalk 2
I didn't have Mike Pouncey as worthwhile at #15 overall and I fully acknowledged he was a better Center prospect than Maurkice and maybe the best one I've evaluated. At least he had unusual qualities for the position in terms of his agility and athleticism. If I didn't even have him as a worthy get for #15 overall you're never going to convince me that a Chance Warmack is worth it. I think Chance Warmack is a draft pick for the lazy or desperate. If you're a competitive team that could go all the way and you need a great guard and you need him right now, you can't wait for your offensive line coach to properly teach a lower rated guy, and you also have no money to buy a free agent...then OK, maybe Chance is your guy. That's not the Dolphins. "Value" as a term can be manipulated in so many ways for any argument. "Value" is exactly what I do not see in a Chance Warmack.
There is no guard, I don't care how good, that presents value to this team at #12 overall. We simply can no longer afford to spend these kinds of resources on non-impact positions, of which Guard is the top of the list. Pouncey was one thing, and as good as he is, his pressence hasn't really improved the team, but taking another interior lineman in the first is just not acceptable. The torches and pitchforks would rightly be out for Ireland (and Philbin quite frankly) in that scenario
The issue at hand imo is the most likely problematic #12 slot. Yes, we have spent a lot of resources on the OL, but how has that worked out so far? Hell, I'd rather have Donald Thomas back personally. How about Evan Mathis? But in all likelihood there will be some very good receivers, pass rushers and DBs in rounds 2 and 3. It's an issue of value- would you rather have Mingo or Sam Montgomery than Warmack? I wouldn't- Dion Jordan yes, those two no. I think that maybe the lazy and inefficient way to go about it is reaching for need- I like Patterson and CK makes a good case, but am I sold on him at #12 as opposed to picking up WR value in the 2nd round? No. And as to Warmack, he looks pretty rock solid to me. And if Jake Long leaves? Again, what are the odds of Jonathan Martin going back to his natural LT position and Jerry sliding to RT, leaving a hole at Guard? We do have five picks in rds 2-4 to address needs. No one that I'm aware of has their hearts set on drafting an OL in the 1st rd- but sometimes, as that infamous band said, you can't always get what you want, and that goes for the NFL draft, too. Get what you need ion Warmack? Not really, but imo maybe you get what you should given the circumstances, a heck of a player where otherwise you might reach and, in the end, get nothing. That being said, I don't mean to be a hypocrite, because part of me says screw it, let's go for a WR and choose the best one we can at #12. I wouldn't even bring up Warmack except that from what I've seen (and I'm certainly no expert) the guy is a rocking good player. Kiper has him at 5 overall, Boomer mentioned that Gil Brandt has him as the #1 overall player, so my eyeballs aside he must be doing something right.
I get what you're saying and I certainly respect gil Brandt, but if a Guard is the ebst player in a draft then it is a terrible draft. Guards simply don't impact the game enough, regardless of how good, to make taking one in the first round worthwhile. I'd take a raw, or lower rated WR any day of the week over a guard because if the WR pans out he is really going to impact the game. The guard will not
well..he just would have invested about 87 picks and 400 million dollars to fix one unit and finally have at least 3 guys that are really good.
The thing is, the draft isn't just the 1st round. I like Damontre Moore quite a bit- will he be there at #12? Doubtful. Maybe a team trades up to #12 to take Barkley, maybe Teo. But the meat of the draft, after the first wave of top notch pass rushers, seems to be 2nd and 3rd rd WRs, the second wave of pass rushers and DBs. I'm not proposing anything revolutionary, just the idea of drafting for quality and value in the 1st round, going more for need in the following rounds. We could fill a need, with some would argue elite quality, at #12 and have a shot at plenty of playmaking sizzle with the next 4 or 5 picks. Is that ideal? No. But it would work for me.
[video=youtube;d9NeqNEApgU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9NeqNEApgU[/video] 1. Beats the attempted second level block by Steen, forces Lacy to cut the ball outside, screwing up the timing and ruining the play. 2. Shoots inside which forces Lacy to bounce outside of his tight end where Zeke Motta has a free lane to the runner, but misses. 3. Steen lunges at Manti's feet but misses, reaches up from the ground and trips him as he tries to scrape over to Lacy. Illegal. Touchdown. Backfield camera shows that Te'o was forced to play the counter but that Lacy opted away from the counter because the OL had ripped such a large hole open on the left side. DT #91 completely blew his gap responsibility. 4. Te'o meets the fullback in the hole and plugs him up nicely giving Lacy nowhere to run. Lacy gains only 3 yards. If you want to stop this play from gaining 3 yards there's nothing more Te'o could've done. You'd have had to get better DL play. 5. MISSED TACKLE. Screen. LB #44 is closest to the screen play but takes a poor angle, losing contain. Te'o was lined up further away from the action than #44 but was still the guy that came closest to getting Lacy down. If #44 had done his job this is a tackle, as Lacy would have had to cut back toward Te'o and wouldn't have been afforded the ability to sprint to the sideline. It's a testament to Manti's speed and range that he very nearly pulled Lacy down for a loss on this play. But without any containment whatsoever, it was too much to ask. One of the few truly missed tackles of Manti's all year. 6. Te'o aligns over the right side B gap. Lacy runs around left end, 5 gaps away. Nuff said. 7. Te'o once again is lined up on the back side of the action, it's a sweep to the opposite side, yet he actually beats his own teammate #44 who is closer to the action. Makes the tackle for very little gain. Shows great range. 8. Coverage. Simply put, the ball went to another guy's coverage responsibility. What's he supposed to do? 9. Once again lined up on the backside not the front side. Aggressively shoots the back side B gap. Ball goes front side around left end, D gap. Again, 5 gaps over. 10. 3rd & 1. Zeke Motta ****ed up. That's all there is to it. Look at the blocking and gap responsibilities. Motta shoots through the gap but misses and Lacy runs right through the hole it created. Lacy comes right at #91 who can't get off the block and instead falls to the turf allowing Lacy to go by him and cut to the right. Chance Warmack gets a clean release, gets plastered onto Te'o and Manti can't get off the block. The free safety comes up in run support and blows the angle. Very nearly a touchdown. 11. 1st & Goal. Bit on the run fake, let Michael Williams get behind him, touchdown. Blown coverage by Te'o. 12. Becoming a theme. Alabama obviously been coached to reach out with their hands and trip his feet on cut blocks. This is the second time it happens. This is a zone play and Chance Warmack tries to get out to Manti's front and cut him. The cut block itself was unsuccessful but he gets a hand on Manti's feet and trips him by the legs. Again, borderline illegal. Doesn't matter. This time #44 does a great job shooting into the backfield unblocked (because blockers on Te'o) and getting tailback down behind line of scrimmage. 13. Zone play, Manti is on the front side. He reads it and aggressively hits the front side hole, but Lacy cuts back to the back side of the blocking, where #55 has lost backside containment. Zeke Motta reads the cutback and aggressively fills the backside but completely misses the tackle. What exactly do people want Te'o to do here? 14. Iso blocking and Chance Warmack gets a clean release out to Te'o who meets him pretty nicely. Lacy will have none of it. He bounces it all the way to the outside where again there's no containment. Zeke Motta once again blows the tackle as he fills aggressively to the line of scrimmage. 15. Pass play. Not Manti's guy. Lacy drops it anyway. 16. Pass play. Again not relevant to Te'o. 17. Reads the front side and gets to that side but I thought he might have hit the wrong gap allowing Lacy to cut back. Te'o recovered though and tackled Lacy for a modest 3 yard gain. 18. Blitz. Met in the hole by Lacy. Really great job in pass pro by Lacy. That was impressive. 19. MISSED TACKLE. McCarron dumps off to Lacy over the middle and Lacy sets Te'o up nicely for this one. Bad angle, allows Lacy to spin out. Missed the open field tackle. According to ESPN, his fourth missed tackle all year. 20. Once again, the play is front side around left-end and he's back side B gap. How is this his bag? 21. He covers his hole perfectly here. The problem? Again, no outside containment. #55 is doing a terrible job keeping contain, the CB to that side is doing even worse. This time when Zeke Motta goes 100 mph to the line to fill the run gap it's not even really his fault that he missed because he hit the right gap and the CB should have been able to keep contain. You lose containment, this happens. Wait, weren't we talking about Manti Te'o? Oh yeah, Manti had absolutely nothing to do with this play. Just like most of these plays... 22. Nice job by Louis Nix getting off the blocks to make a play by Lacy. The blockers let off Nix and went out to Te'o. He wasn't involved in the play nor should he have been. 23. You know how hard it is to stop a 4th & 1 dive play when your DLs are outmatched by Alabama's OLs? I'm not even commenting here. 24. Te'o shoots the front side gap and forces Lacy to cut to the outside of the opposite side where, wonder of wonders, there's no containment. 25. Te'o reads the zone play and shoots the front side to try and tackle Lacy in the backfield or force a cutback to help. Cyrus Kouandjio does a remarkable job seeing Te'o coming and completely reversing his body to lunge and get just enough chip on Manti's legs to prevent the TFL. But he still forced Lacy to stop his backfield momentum and cut to the outside, and as a result Lacy could only gain 3 or 4 yards on this play. 26. Again read the zone and filled aggressively to the backfield. Louis Nix made the play but if he didn't, Te'o was right behind him, literally pushing Nix into the runner. 27. He's reading the counter here. There's a fullbuck cutting across the grain to block the unblocked defensive end #55. Steen has a clean release out to Te'o but he's not up to the task of blocking him. Te'o jumps to the B/C gaps to guard the counter but Lacy just sticks with the front side blocking because it's so wide open. Louis Nix can't get off his block to make a play on the ball as it goes right by him. I mean look at the backfield camera view and tell me how Te'o is supposed to cover so many holes at once.
Here's my synopsis. These are not all of the plays. They're focused on Eddie Lacy. But Eddie Lacy is the one that gets credit for "torching" Manti Te'o which really just amounts to one missed tackle in the open field that made Manti look pretty silly. The rest of this is a whole lot of nothing. You're seeing an Alabama line cream the Notre Dame line into creamed spinach. You're seeing Manti Te'o not only cover his gap responsibilities, but show the superb mobility and range to come out and make plays that his teammates closer to the action should be making but aren't because he's leaving them in his dust. He's not going to get criticized by the NFL for being on the backside B gap while Eddie Lacy hits the front side D gap. You're seeing a LOT of blown containment in this footage, and that has nothing to do with a Manti Te'o. In fact when you sit here and say "Well if Manti is so good how come he doesn't come over from that backside to the front side and get in on the action"...that is actually an example of some of the things that went wrong. He does that, then HE is the one blowing containment. Instead it was primarily #55, #44, #17, #91 and the corners really doing a very poor job of keeping containment or maintaining their gap responsibilities. Zeke Motta was missing tackles all over the place. I don't know how Te'o gets criticized for four, five, seven, nineteen missed tackles or whatever the number is up to nowadays, with no mention of Zeke Motta. I only saw on this particular footage two real bad plays for Te'o. One was the blown tackle in the open field on Lacy who spun right around him and scored the touchdown. The other was when he bit hard on a fake and let the tight end Michael Williams get behind him for a touchdown. Those were the bad plays. Otherwise there were just some nits. Twice he was illegally grabbed and tripped by offensive linemen that were on the ground. The refs need to flag that but he also needs to protect his feet better. Once, (on this tape), he had Chance Warmack out on him with a clean release and just couldn't get off the block and contain Lacy. He needs to do a better job using his hands. And the refs need to do better jobs throwing flags. NOWHERE IN THIS FILM WHATSOEVER is there tape of him "shying away from contact" and/or "playing intimidated". It's not even close. Not. Even. Close.
I'd be happy with any of those 3 guys at 12. All fill a need and all of them are potentially the best at their position. Okay you're convincing me that he isn't overrated. I still don't want him at 12.
Reinebold said to me tonight he's never seen a college OL dominate like that, said great MLBs of the NFL wouldn't have made plays the way they the Tide front were rolling Mondat.
If we did end up picking Te'o at 12, how would he be best used? Do we move to more of a 3-4 front? Do we get trade/cut Dansby or Burnett? Just thinking out loud here, wondering what everybody thinks.
Not saying the guy is Ray Lewis. I was just turned off how one bad night while his DL was being dominated and he was prevented from being able to make plays, did two things which constituted a massive overreaction: 1) Made undecided and uninformed individuals react with one simplistic sentiment, "Pass" 2) Brought out the crows, those being people who silently disagreed with his being rated high and now start crowing loudly about how right they were. It's really easy to disagree with a guy being rated a top 5 talent, especially silently. After all, there are only 5 top 5 talents. Chances are any given one isn't deserving. When they're popular, people stay silent. When there's weakness, they crow. Way of the world. Lots of folks like to sh-t on the top rated players without actually going out on a limb of their own and saying who the top talents really are. Thus, you've maximized your rightness and minimized your wrongness.
And if the WR flames out you have nothing. All I 'm saying is that maybe it's better to take those risks this year in rds 2 and 3, also to bolster the position in FA. This doesn't strike me as a top notch draft class. I never understood all the fuss about Matt Barkley- he strikes me as a very good college QB and a pretty good NFL prospect, but nothing that justifies the pedestal that he was put on last year- people were gaga for this guy. But he was supposed to be the marqueee player in this draft- now where is he? Mid 1st rd pick, 2nd round? Who is the marquee player- Geno Smith? And we're left at what for the 1st pic, Geno Smith, Jarvis Jones or Luke Joeckel? That's what I would call slim pickings. I've been adamant about getting playmakers this year, it's high time after the meat and potatoes drafts of the last 5 years or so. But if I have the choice of spending the 1st rd pick on one of the top rated Guards in the last couple of decades or reaching on a much lower rated player at a more attractive position, I'd at least consider Warmack. It's a tough call, and in a perfect world there would be a playmaker at #12 this year that would make taking another OL out of the question. We'll see what happens, but this draft imo has depth but is weak at the top. We're all just guessing here, I'm thinking WR in rds 2-3. Maybe a WR or 2 will really distinguish themselves at the Senior Bowl and combine, we'll see what happens.
Fair enough. Womack may be the best guard in a decade. But even if he's the best player in the draft, he's not going #1, and shouldn't go #12. Guards simply don't impact the game enough.
It comes down to asset and resource management. I hate the fact that our WR core sucks, but maybe that's a good reason to make getting Greg Jennings or Dwayne Bowe in FA a priority. There's a high bust rate with 1st rd WR's, and they certainly don't impact the game enough- Clyde Duncan, Perry Tuttle in years gone by and plenty in recent years as well. Back in the good old days, when the Miami Dolphins was one of the top organizations in professional sports, we used to pity the Bengals, Cardinals, Saints and Bills of the world that reached for need in the draft all the time. Now we are them. What did Ernie Banks of the Chicago Cubs used to say, "It's a good day for two"? Same thing with WRs in this draft imo- double up, even double up and get your guy in FA, because you never know. But at least consider value at #12. All I know is that when an Alabama game was on tv the last couple of years, Chance Warmack was usually out there destroying some people. I don't know if he's the best player in the draft or the tenth best, but he is a very, very good player.
Even if we filled our WR and TE need completely in free agency, you'd still be better off taking the 4th best pass rusher, or best safety, or 2nd best corner then you would the best guard. I am not suggesting that Womack isn't a good player. He obviously is. But he could be the best guard in the league and he wouldn't have much of an overall impact on our team. What I mean is, even the best guard in the elague is not so exponentially better than Incognito/Jerry that we'd suddenly be averaging 5.0 yards a carry and Tanny would never be sacked. Lines don;t work that way. We have a real life example of this. We went from very average to below average centers to Mike Pouncey, one of, if not the best in the league. And he's made what difference exactly to the offense as a whole? And Center is more important than guard.
That's possible, but it also opens up the possibility for textbook reaching. How good is the 4th best pass rusher? And actually in this draft class I doubt that the 4th best pass rusher will be there at #12 (Jones, Moore, Woerner, Jordan). I like Matt Elam quite a bit, but is he a good enough cover Safety for us to take at #12 as a FS? I don't know. I'm all on board as per satisfying our need for play makers, but the best teams tend to draft the best players in the 1st rd rather than reach for needs. I'd like nothing more than to get a top notch WR, pass rusher or DB at #12, I just don't want to reach for one.
Womack? The only guard named Womack I can think of is Floyd "Pork Chop" Womack, who was in the draft about ten years ago, and played for a couple of teams in the league. Several of us on whatever message board I was frequenting at the time, were hoping we'd draft Pork Chop Womack.
His name is Warmack, not Womack. When you cannot get his name right, it indicates you know very little else about him either. Top of the line guards can darned sure impact the game enough. Does the old adage that you control the trenches you win the game mean nothing anymore? If improving the guard positions allow the incumbent RBs to average 1 more yard a carry, that is not impacting the game? I know Mr Padre likes to say that linemen don't score points, so they aren't impact players, but they do allow the skill position players and greatly assist the skill position players in scoring points.
Warmack, excuse me. Didn't realize you had been appointed spelling police. And it doesn't appear to me that most of the teams left in the playoffs are dominant trench teams. In fact, the lines of NE and GB in particular are nothing to write home about. Lastly, just adding Warmack won't increase our RBs average by a yard. There is more to it than that. The running back can help make his own holes, like Ricky Williams proved.
Actually, I think the Packers are the only team left in the playoffs with a below average line. I know SF and Denver field exceptional lines. Seattle and New England field well above average lines, I believe. Not sure about Atlanta.
Outside of SF, with 2, do any of those other teams have more than 1 first rounder? If we brought back Jake Long and drafted Warmack, that would be 3. Seems like an excessive use of resources on the line to me.
That's a good question. GB has 2 with Bulaga and Derek Sherrod but they have a bad line. Seattle has 2 with Carpenter and Okung. New England has 2 with Mankins and Solder.
Forgot Solder was a 1st rounder. That kind of proves the point though. None of those guys are that great that their performance dwarfs lower round guys. O-line is a position that should be developed for the most part, IMO.
Slight exaggeration on the Packers OL and marginal context of the real issues; Bulaga went down for the season and he was critical and. Hen losing Sherrod was big too. Ted Thompson made a rare swing and a miss on Jeff Saturday but the combination of losing Bulaga and Saturday's struggles really affected their cohesion. Lest we not forget that they've used five different starting combinations since mid season. Evan Dietrich Smith has played very well at center since they benched Saturday, the rookie FA Barclay has played well down the stretch and Josh Sitton remains one of the best guards in all of football. The run game is kicking into life now they have stability and Rodgers has been sacked just 14 times in the last six games.
