1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

"Only" $36 million in salary cap space in 2013?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ckparrothead, Jan 9, 2013.

  1. DevilFin13

    DevilFin13 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    9,713
    6,282
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    I may have phrased that in a less than ideal manner. But the passing game is so much more important than the running game that it's just very hard to for a running back to be good enough to make a huge difference. As great as Peterson was the Vikings were only a good offense. 14th in points scored is good. But if that's all a great season from a RB gets you then I'm not going to worry about investing much in that position, except maybe if you can pass the ball really well and stop the pass really well.
     
  2. DevilFin13

    DevilFin13 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    9,713
    6,282
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    I think it's less about the relationship between the running game and points/wins. Though that's part of it. In regard to Bush it's about replacement value. I'm not sure Lamar Miller can't replace a lot of the value Bush brings for a lower cost.
     
  3. WhiteIbanez

    WhiteIbanez Megamediocremaniacal

    2,155
    837
    0
    Aug 10, 2012
    You need to look at running back production and leadership that will be lost. The scales are being tested as we speak.
     
  4. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

    40,533
    33,035
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    He practically single handily took that team to the playoffs.

    I would gladly take Adrian Peterson and pay that man his money.

    Still need a good team. Peyton Manning only one won superbowl and that was when he had a good team. yes the team was 2-14 without him and 10-6 with him, however still lost in the first round of the playoffs like Peterson.
     
    unluckyluciano likes this.
  5. Springveldt

    Springveldt Season Ticket Holder

    So if we end up paying Smith 7M, Marshal 5M and Patterson 4.5M we would be around the average for the CB position.
     
  6. Springveldt

    Springveldt Season Ticket Holder

    Less picks as well since the Vontae coupla picks became pick.
     
  7. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You

    23,388
    16,296
    113
    Nov 22, 2007
    Denver, CO
    Not really. The numbers are skewed honestly. Only 6 teams have CB3s on non-rookie contracts.

    There are CB2s playing for vet minimum to skew their numbers; same with CB1. I would say the ceiling for a CB1 is $12m, the ceiling for a CB2 is $8m, and the ceiling for a CB3 is $5.5m.

    I still think we should re-sign Smith and draft Milliner/Banks but I've discussed this a number of times.
     
    Springveldt likes this.
  8. oakelmpine

    oakelmpine New Member

    3,328
    339
    0
    Oct 16, 2012
    This is not normal if you are a competent GM.
     
  9. Perfectville_USA

    Perfectville_USA Mr Perfect

    607
    302
    0
    Dec 27, 2012
    Syracuse NY
    We can do one or two things this offseason...

    1. Be smart build through the draft. Do not overspend on other teams free agents, do NOT try and build Rome in one day.

    2. Spend every penny of our cap space. Hope we can fix every single hole on the team this offseason. [CB, WR, TE, Pass Rusher, OL & DT] Then contend for a Super Bowl. Even though in truth, we are in the 2nd year of our rebuilding phase.
     
  10. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    I agree with the sentiment that the Dolphins should not feel pressure to spend all of the money. Cap space can be shifted off into the future, easily.

    One thing to note though is the team can't keep shifting cap space off into the future because there will reach a point where they have to spend it, and one could easily argue there isn't enough value in the free agent market to justify spending such large gobs of money.

    The team IS going through a crisis right now. Attendance is at a dramatic low. Now local television ratings are starting to be affected strongly. The fans after 10 years of poor results are tired of spending exorbitent amounts of money for the right to support a team that sucks pretty much any given year. This is the reality the team faces.

    Nobody is saying they're not allowed to be smart with their money. Nobody. But they don't have enough talent to really compete and they need to find ways to add it. Not every free agent is actually worth a lot of money. But some are. And some are worth more than they're asking. The Dolphins need to find the premium talents that are worth paying. Essentially, fans are just asking for results before they continue to invest in the team.
     
    schmolioot and Perfectville_USA like this.
  11. Perfectville_USA

    Perfectville_USA Mr Perfect

    607
    302
    0
    Dec 27, 2012
    Syracuse NY
    I can see Ireland blowing every dollar of our cap space, then us going into salary cap hell. [just like the Jets are in now] It's my worst nightmare, to be honest. [to see him overspend on average NFL talent]
     
  12. Stitches

    Stitches ThePhin's Biggest Killjoy Luxury Box

    53,148
    31,935
    113
    Nov 23, 2007
    Katy, TX
    That's what happens in FA for the most part.

    And I severely doubt Ireland will put us in salary cap hell (like the Jets are) even if he used up all our space.
     
  13. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    They don't necessarily have to spend it.
     
  14. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

    9,767
    3,436
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    North of the Border
    Except that we would be giving a #2 CB #1 money.
     
  15. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

    40,533
    33,035
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    Isn't #1 money $10 million or more?
     
  16. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    There's been nothing in Ireland's history here to suggest he'd put us in cap hell.
     
  17. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

    85,620
    51,681
    113
    Dec 3, 2007
    Could it be that the difference between the $36m vs the $56m to $60m space that one particular writer has thrown out there is that he's adding Jake's contract twice? Double counting.... deuces... :shifty:
     
  18. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    Team is answerable to a salary cap floor, and that floor is significantly raised as per the new CBA.
     
    PhinGeneral likes this.
  19. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    For a guy that is a free agent, yes. Maybe more like $9 million or $10 million, but yes.
     
  20. Springveldt

    Springveldt Season Ticket Holder

    In your opinion.

    I happen to think Smith is a #1 CB as I don't believe there are 32 CB's better than him. Just my opinion though.
     
  21. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

    40,533
    33,035
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    So hypothetically $7 million dollars a year is a little bit of a hometown discount.
     
  22. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    To me it's borderline #1/#2 money for a guy that is in fact borderline #1/#2.

    For example, Cortland Finnegan and Jason McCourty were both on the Titans together. Finnegan was the #1, and McCourty was the #2. That much was clear. Finnegan was a free agent and got $10 million a year from the Rams, and McCourty got $7 million from the Titans. Sean Smith's contract offer is modeled directly off McCourty's contract, if reports are to be believed.
     
  23. PhinGeneral

    PhinGeneral PC Texas A&M, Bro Club Member

    9,802
    7,239
    113
    Jan 4, 2008
    Swamps of Jersey
    I believe under the new CBA they'll have to have spent 89% of their cap by the end of 2016.
     
  24. ChrisKo

    ChrisKo Season Ticket Holder

    3,304
    2,590
    113
    Nov 28, 2007
    Desert
    Actually, that's not true. I believe the per-team 99% cash floor starts this year and is on a 4 year term. So 2013-2016 each team must have a cap floor of 99% and if they fail to meet that, the league has to pay the difference to the players.
     
  25. ChrisKo

    ChrisKo Season Ticket Holder

    3,304
    2,590
    113
    Nov 28, 2007
    Desert
    Correct, except it's 99%.
     
  26. PhinGeneral

    PhinGeneral PC Texas A&M, Bro Club Member

    9,802
    7,239
    113
    Jan 4, 2008
    Swamps of Jersey
    99% sounds too high. Are you sure?

    Edit: I found this-
    Salary Cap Floor

    Haven't found anything regarding the "Cash Floor", but 99% would make sense. My understanding, though, is that you don't necessarily have to spend 89% this year, but rather it must be 89% in totality for the next 4 years. I'll see what kind of clarification I can get on that.
     
  27. GridIronKing34

    GridIronKing34 Silently Judging You

    23,388
    16,296
    113
    Nov 22, 2007
    Denver, CO
    Not really. I have said the average numbers are skewed every time I post them but people seem to overlook that statement. $7M-12M is #1 CB money, $5M-8M is #2 CB money, and $3.5M-$5.5M is #3 CB money. The average has guys taking the vet minimum at the end of their careers which really brings down the average.
     
  28. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

    38,949
    20,033
    113
    Nov 28, 2007
    Pembroke Pines, FL
    I'm saying there is no statistic that I am aware of that correlates rushing proficiency with consistent winning, certainly not in the way net YPA and passer rating and turnover margin are correlated. Thus it's impossible for me to "[believe] a statistic says more than it really does" because I'm saying I haven't seen said statistic. You and GMJohnson have not demonstrated the statistic you claim that I'm misinterpreting.

    My stance on rushing and passing and correlation to victory is pretty well known, and there was a period of many months where myself, rafael, and shouright all posted pretty solid numbers on our similar positions. You at the time seemed to agree with those posts, and I recall you having a similar reaction as myself when Joe Philbin talked in his introductory press conference about passing YPA as an important stat.

    I'm not saying this at all, especially the part about "sum of rushing yardage". There's a current thread in the Club Level where I'm saying that volume stats including yardage don't indicate anything. I've been opposed to "sum yardage", as you put it, as a measure of anything--including quality--for quite a few years now.

    What I'm saying is that I have not seen a rushing statistic that correlates rushing proficiency of any kind and winning. That's not to say it doesn't exist. I'm saying I haven't seen it, and it certainly isn't being demonstrated in this thread. I'm therefore not going to agree with the original point that started this discussion chain, that RB is important because of the amount of touches that position racks up, because there is no information that this is actually in any way important.

    And again, that is not an argument against the entire concept of rushing. That's an argument that maybe RB isn't quite as important as was originally asserted.
     
  29. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    You say there's no information showing that it is in any way important. This is just not true. There's 50 years of industry ground level data and experience from people that have more direct experience with the sport than you or I will ever have, all saying the same thing in one way or another, that running the ball is important. You're going to disagree with this on the basis of an hypothesis (that rushing success measures should correlate statistically with winning, if running the football were truly important), for which you admittedly have zero evidence.

    I don't see that.
     
  30. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    This in my opinion is a great synopsis and helps explain the disagreement over 89% versus 99%.

    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/07/25/the-cba-in-a-nutshell/

     
    ChrisKo and PhinGeneral like this.
  31. Mexphin

    Mexphin Well-Known Member

    1,172
    176
    63
    May 6, 2012
    Ensenada, Mexico
    Why to Mexico??? We have a lot of those mangers in our soccer teams.
     
  32. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

    38,949
    20,033
    113
    Nov 28, 2007
    Pembroke Pines, FL
    Again, I'm not arguing against the concept of rushing. You seem to think I am--not sure why the 50 years of industry data and experience would be relevant otherwise. And if you think I admitted to having zero evidence, I'm not sure how closely you read the post you quoted.

    Given that there is a large amount of data correlating passing efficiency with winning, data which has been posted by myself and others in the past, why isn't similar data about rushing being posted? At this point I could say you have admitted you have zero evidence, and I would be just as correct about your posts as you are about mine.

    Measure the RB by what he does when he touches the ball, not by how often he touches the ball. That's it.

    That could be the root of it. And I would easily side with John Clayton as having more understanding of the CBA than Armando Salguero. But when every Dolphins beat writer gives a cap space number in the same neighborhood, numbers arrived at independently, then that sways me back over.

    We'll see when the 2013 cap is announced, I suppose.
     
  33. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    This is yet again unproven hypothesis, that higher correlation statistics make something more important. Where's the evidence? You're using the hypothesis as evidence of itself.

    I agree. Whoever argued against that is making a poor point. Which bloke did that, so I know who to jeer?
     
  34. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    This is correct. Teams have to spend 89% of the cap. But spending only 89% leaves $13M in savings. Certainly thats quite the chunk of money in this context, its essentially a "franchise" caliber player.
     
  35. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    Compared with the $46 million that the Dolphins have in space right now or the $55 million that some other teams have?

    You're cutting an awful fine point if you disagree with my assertion that the problem with continuing to shove cap space into the future is you eventually have to spend it to catch up with the floor, and you're disagreeing on the basis of being able to operate with up to $13 million under the salary cap. At that point I'd say you're just being argumentative.
     
  36. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with your assertion. I was simply saying that while the team has $46M in space, that doesn't mean they have to spend that much. If you're consistently $13M under the cap, thats a lot of money over time.

    IIRC, Miami had an internal cap a couple of years back. I just think that there is a lot more consideration in regards to spending aside from salary cap circumstances.
     
  37. DevilFin13

    DevilFin13 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    9,713
    6,282
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    They were 14th in points allowed, same as their offense. He "carried" them to being a good offense, not great. And that's with an incredible season for a RB. The team still had to play defense, and was good at doing so.

    Compare this year's team with their 09 team that had Favre and won 12 games. That team was 22nd in rushing yards per attempt. But because of Favre playing great they were 2nd in points scored with 29 per game, compared to this year where they scored 24 per game despite Peterson gaining 1.6 yards more per carry than he did in 09. The fact that they could score 5 more points per game with Peterson being just above average compared to him being great is what I was getting at when I talked about value.

    I think this also speaks to what Ck and Desides are talking about. In regard to that discussion, this has guided my thinking. There's also this.
     
  38. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

    40,533
    33,035
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    Farve is greater than Ponder. Your comparision of a running back is comparing a team with a great QB/Great runningback and pretty bad QB/Great runningback.

    I will admit 100% of the time that having a great quarterback/Great runningback is the better scenerio.
     
  39. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    Its obvious that passing efficiency has a much greater effect on winning than running efficiency. But that doesn't mean that rushing is completely irrelevant. All things considered, passing should take priority. You obviously a team would be better with Adrian Peterson than an average RB. Ultimately this is a game of resource allocation though, so it becomes a matter of deciding how to best allocate the limited resources you have. How much better does Peterson make your team, and how much is that difference worth?
     
    P h i N s A N i T y likes this.
  40. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    Brian Burke also does some good stuff about the value of RBs, which is pertinent here I believe:

    http://www.advancednflstats.com/2012/03/paying-free-agent-rbs.html

     

Share This Page