Sean Smith and the Dolphins "Far Apart" on contract talks

The question though CK is do you sign him for that type of money when deep in your heart..........you know he's getting cut before it's half over. Or do you make a play for a better CB? Look at the current FA list and think about that contract as the starting point. How many of those guys would you rather target?

Also can we at least dignify that Marshall was brought in here to challenge as a starter. I still to this day highly doubt he was here to be an exclusive nickel. He was here to start at one of the CB spots and slide into nickel downs...but he was definitely pushing Smith or Vontae down (just ended up being the guy we didn't think it would be). Not to mention Marshall/Patterson's contracts are more manageable at half the length term.

Depending on Marshall's back (which is a part of this....really need Miami media to be on this before FA) and the fact Dmitri played alright on the boundary. I think we got #2/#3 locked up. Make a play for a true #1 guy is all I am asking for before settling for a bloated contract for a guy who is a #2 at best.

 

Tell me once again how the NYG last year or the Pats or the the Saints when they had to have two high priced good Cb's? All those teams had 1 and it was 1 better then Smith. Not saying you dont need good corners just that overspending there doesnt seem very prudent right now since its not like we dont have other needs.

 

You really see Derek Cox as that much better?

I'm not sure I do although I suppose I need to take a stronger look at him then. PFF certainly doesn't see him as much if at all better (Cox: -2.5 rating on 776 snaps, Smith: -3.5 on 1068 snaps). Cox allowed 7.5 yards per attempt in his direction this year and 1.6 yards per coverage snap. In my experience, both are bad numbers, especially the latter. Smith allowed 6.5 yards per attempt and 1.1 yards per coverage snap. Both in my experience are good numbers. Especially consider Smith was matched up on the team's top receiver most of the time and was the most likely corner on the field not to be given safety help, and/or to be put in press despite an all out blitz.

 

I don't see why I would cut him halfway through that contract.

As for how many guys I would target in free agency above him...my answer is (truly) three. They are Brent Grimes, Cary Williams and Keenan Lewis. And among them, Grimes is coming off an Achilles tear and even finished the previous year hurt...and he's fairly old too. Here's a list of free agents, ordered by how much I think they're worth when healthy and playing.

Brent Grimes-UFA
Cary Williams-UFA
Keenan Lewis-UFA
Sean Smith-UFA
Chris Houston-UFA
Antoine Cason-UFA
Chris Gamble-UFA
Derek Cox-UFA
Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie-UFA
Rashean Mathis-UFA
Aqib Talib-UFA
Cedric Griffin-UFA
Marcus Trufant-UFA
Quentin Jammer-UFA
Tracy Porter-UFA
E.J. Biggers-UFA
Darius Butler-UFA

 

Why do you "know" he's getting cut before it's half over? I don't understand that line of thinking. Not to mention it's quite possible he's not done ascending as a player.

At some point you have to look at cohesiveness & chemistry and the potentially damaging affect changing things around might have on it. Case in point--- the Eagles. Personally, I'd keep as much of this defense together as possible and simply look to upgrade it via the draft.

 

The Eagles arent a very good example. Just saying, Reid did it to himself hiring an OL coach to be a DC. And then running a wide 9 scheme without a strong interior at DT and MLB. You cant do that and expect not to get killed.

Im not opposed to keeping the D together, I am opposed to paying Sean Smith big money though.

 

He's had 4 INT's in 3 of his 4 seasons (we really need someone who can do that). He's 6-1 so the height is still somewhat there. Has room to grow as he was nicked up for a couple years there which is the risk we'd be taking there. He'd have real strong play and then get nicked up and play poorly. If healthy he's a nice upgrade over Smith.

 

This. Not sure why this goes understated. Obviously Coyle has some faith and trust in Sean to put this much responsibility on his shoulders. Fans oohed and aahed over what Reshad Jones did this year, but much of that wouldn't have happened, IMO, if Sean's coverage didn't provide us the scheme flexibility to do so. If Sean were as bad as fans are trying to make him out to be then much of Reshad's time would've been spent babysitting him over the top IMO.

 

That's the problem. I think what you saw out of Smith this year is his ceiling. This was him being at his best in a contract year and still being highly inconsistent. I just think we can do better for that type of money in free agency. If we sign Smith were still signing the same set of folk who were in the bottom 3rd in the secondary. I'd rather improve on Smith and Clemons...turn this secondary around.

I'm really down on Smith though..........hell I'd try a Tracy Porter reclamation project first before signing Smith to that cash ;p

 

$43 million, $20 million for a guy who isn't a playmaker and had 2 good games? As others mentioned, I'm sure this is just a reporter making a story out of nothing and this is part of negotiating. But if he thinks he's worth that then I'd say let's show him the door. If we do end up losing him, that would pretty much make the 2009 draft a complete fail in terms of building this franchise.

 

I've never really been that impressed with him. I like him but not above Sean Smith. The best I can say about him is he's able to play the slot whereas Smith cannot. He was also hurt a lot last year and missed another 4 games this year as well. You point out that in most years he has about 4 interceptions, although it should be pointed out he had none last year. Well, the last two years Sean Smith had 2 interceptions and IMO I think that's going to be his longer term average. I don't know that I see that big of a difference there between a 2 interception expectation and a 4 interception expectation.

 

Why? He's gotten better every single year in his young career. And when you consider his WR background and his propensity toward interceptions in college, then I think that shows you there's still one area of his game that is likely just going to keep getting better.

 

Never understood the value some placed on him.
He's has not lived up to potential.

There are LB's that turn their head in coverage to make plays on the ball more than Smith does.

Let him walk.

 

If the Dolphins let him walk that's a pretty strong indictment of Jeff Ireland. He drafts corners in the 1st and 2nd round, gets inconsistent play out of them, then jettisons one within 3 years and the other within 4 years.

 

Not commenting on Cox's play but I used to eat lunch with him back in college. Good guy, would love to see him in a Dolphins uniform too. That said I hope we resign Smith.

 

No argument.
2 high investments at one position.
Those guys should be in the midst of paying off with solid play right now.

Big misses

 

Trading one for a 2nd and just not re-signing the other aren't the end of the world.

 

Is NFL.com and ESPN lying to me? They got him at 4 INT's for this year. Or do you mean 2011 when he only played 6 games (hence the medical risk I mentioned earlier as he hasn't finished a full 16 since his rookie year). It's a risk but he's just a flat out better player when the guy is healthy.

Well yah Jeffy's tenure here hasn't exactly been a blessing for the team lol.

Like I said before.............Sean Smith is my new Crowder.

 

Talking about his 0 interceptions in 2011 on 207 coverage snaps.

And the medical risk is all part of it. You can't play well if you can't play.

And I just don't know that I would say he's flat out better than Smith even when he's on the field and healthy.

 

Why is it an indictment in the slightest bit?

Vontae Davis and Sean Smith turned out to be quite reasonable selections, and at very worst produced average results for the rounds they were selected in. The decisions to move on from either of them would not be unreasonable.

 

It might not be "the end of the World" but it is a reason to fire the idiot who was responsible. We need higher standards.

Turning a first round pick and a second round pick, at the same position, into a 2nd round pick is how you go 7-9 every year and have a paper thin roster and no legitimate starters at the position you used a first and a second round pick on. It IS very Wannstedt-ian though. You can not use high draft picks at the same position every 4 years. You use a high draft pick at the position, plug the guy in and have him start a decade. At least good teams do.

 

How many good teams have rosters full of guys that've been there for 10 years?

 

While I understand that No 2s in the NFL get this kind of money...it scares the he'll out of me how he will react getting paid like that. Does he work harder? Does he refine his game? Does he put more time in on the field and in the film room? I am not so confident in him doing many of these things after getting a big contract.

 

No, it's not Wannstedt-ian. It's not even remotely close, and you need to go look at what Dave Wannstedt produced in the draft.

Very few high draft picks result in players being plugged in and starting for a decade. That's not even close to the average result, much less a common result. A minority of players will be continuing to play for the team that drafted them after their rookie contracts expire.

 

And then allow the guy who made those two selections, basically missing on both, be allowed to have another chance to fill those positions with more high draft picks?

Ireland has had a chance to build an offensive line....we are still waiting.

Ireland had a chance to build a secondary....it's possible that the only quality starter he will have given us is Reshad Jones.

How long do we give him?

2008 Draft: We have Jake Long remaining and that is up in the air.

2009 Draft: Sean Smith, Chris Clemons and Brian Hartline (and a 2nd rounder from the Davis trade). All three could walk this offseason. Two are good starts (Smith and Hartline) one is marginal and should be replaced (Clemons).

2010 Draft: Odrick, Misi, Jerry, Jones and Carroll. Decent haul but outside of Reshad Jones, no impact players in sight.

I ignore the 2011 and 2012 drafts because in my opinion, you wait three seasons before passing judgement on a draft pick. Potentially, after using a 1st, 3rd and three 5th round picks on the secondary the only remaining player will be Reshad Jones. You can not have entire draft classes (2008 and potentially 2009) not be the heart of your roster. This where we got into trouble with Wannstedt. You need draft classes from 4-5 years ago to be your foundation, not spread out all over the league.

 

See the above.

You're very confused if you think those players remaining on the roster after rookie contracts expire should be considered the baseline of good drafting.

 

I did not want to turn this thread into an Ireland thread.

All I am saying is you need to expect more. Drafting two corners in rounds 1 and 3 and turning them into a 2nd round pick is not a productive use of resources. If you think it is you and I have different standards.

I compare it to my beloved Boston Bruins. They won a championship in 2011. They did it with their draft picks as key cogs to that machine. You can not burn through draft class after draft class, never adding ANY impact players to speak of and be relied upon to keep doing it. How many mulligans does Ireland get? Exactly how long should we give him before we realize he is not capable of drafting ****ing playmakers? He's had (or been involved in) 5 draft classes and has brought us Reshad Jones and....

 

what exactly IS the baseline for good drafting then?

I always thought it was how many good players you drafted and decided were worth second contracts. The foundation of a franchise are your draft picks and the 3-5 year veterans you drafted. Guess I'm wrong.

 

So who are these good teams full of drafted 10 year playmakers?

 

Using second contracts could actually be the best measure of drafting ability. But I'm not sure why you would limit that to only contracts coming from one team. Drafting a guy and having him get paid elsewhere doesn't make the pick a bad one.

 

I agree. That said, when do we hold Ireland accountable for building a rubbish roster? There are some here who consider him all but untouchable. I think he's earned a pink slip already.

 

But changing philosophies and coaching schemes in between their drafting and their next contract can hurt the numbers, no? Dramatically even.

 

Hardly anyone considers him untouchable. There's only like 4 people on the whole forum (according to a previous poll) who even "like" him. At best, most are indifferent.

 

That's smart GM-ing. I bet Ross loves having his money used this way.

 

I've been thinking along these lines for awhile. At #12 it's about the right talent value spot for the top CBs (Milliner and Banks).

 

I hate the idea of resigning him to a big/long contract. He's far from indispensable.

 

The problem is that we're thin at the position. Marshall was intended to be the third corner, and Patterson is a slot corner who fell into our laps. This year's cornerback class isn't stellar (though the top two guys should both be available at #12 overall) and Smith is arguably the second best corner in free agency.

This is a case where the team should avoid creating a need… though Ireland did that to himself by trading away Davis during Smith's contract year.

 

The average salary for a "#1 CB" excluding rookie contracts is $7,724,053.
The average salary for a "#2 CB" excluding rookie contracts is $4,426,128.
The average salary for a "#3 CB" excluding rookies is $3,895,238.

The salaries I took were based on what a player was expected to play back in August/September... teams like the Lions, Raiders, and Cardinals really lowered the #2 CB average salary because they had Jacob Lacey, Shawntae Spencer, and William Gay penciled in as their starters. Meanwhile the CB #3 number is a little misleading and hard to calculate because only 7 cornerbacks were the designated nickelback but weren't currently on a rookie contract. I will put together all the data I compiled later on in a new thread...

I hope you're happy, DJ.

 

You get into salary cap hell, if you overpay for average NFL talent. Hope we get smart with our cap space.

 

Depends. IF he left because he was so good there was a bidding war. If the player leaves because he's so mediocre then that's a different story.