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Does this change your opinion of Jeff Ireland? it does for me...maybe.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Section126, Dec 17, 2012.

  1. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I didn't assume it was Philbin's call, nor does it matter. We were discussing your premise that chemistry was more important to Philbin than talent.

    I don;t know why you're getting upset about this.
     
  2. jinx

    jinx Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like he trusts his general manager to make the right decision.

    The implication that Philbin was the driving force behind the Marshall trade is absurd to me. That's the only thing I'm disputing here. Personally I believe Ireland would have traded Marshall no matter who the coach was.
     
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  3. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    The funny thing about that 72 team is, Mercury Morris could've been considered a Brandon Marshall type player. Morris actually kicked over a table because he was pissed about not getting enough carries.
     
  4. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Yes you did.

    See?

    I'm getting upset, because you flip flop. First you say there's no such thing as chemistry, then you say there is, then you go back and say there wasn't. Then you say Philbin made the call, then you say you didn't say that.

    I shouldn't be upset, its my own fault that I'd expect a little honesty on this forum.
     
  5. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    It also sounds like he trusts his own decision as well.

    Why is it absurd? There is enough evidence to put Philbin behind the move. There is also enough to say he was just behind it and Ireland was behind the move. Heck there is enough to say Ross is behind the move.

    It is not like there is enough to say one is certain.
     
  6. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Thanks for the quote. That's a pretty clear indication from Philbin himself that he doesn't feel ownership of that decision. He's not second guessing it, but it wasn't his decision either.

    I think there's a difference between assent and origination when it comes to these decisions. Most people will consent to many things, especially things that are actually and very literally the purview of someone else, that they would not have originated themselves.
     
  7. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    FinD did that??? :sidelol: :sidelol:
     
  8. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    What is absurd about the notion that Philbin was the driving force behind the Marshall trade? Putting aside the fact that multiple reporters reported that, is there anything whatsoever about the guy who picks up candy wrappers during practice, comments on untied shoes, worries about the language and content of player joking in the locker room, wanted to get rid of Chad Johnson, etc. that would make you think he would like Brandon Marshall? What is absurd to me is the suggestion that within a few months of hiring Philbin largely to shore up the offense, Ireland traded away the team's most prominent offensive player against Philbin's will and yet there has not been a single report of any conflict over that decision.
     
  9. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    Nonsense. When asked at the time what the football reasons were for trading Marshall, Philbin said "We thought it was in the best interests of the football team moving forward." "We" clearly means himself, as well as others.
     
  10. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Intentional transfiguration and misrepresentation of a person's argument. Not surprised.
     
  11. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That second quote was in response to you, accepting the premise that Philbin wanted MArshall gone.

    And it doesn't matter anyway when it comes to this discussion of chemistry.

    Your original post that started all this was about Philbin valuing chemistry more than talent as a rookie HC. It had nothing to do with, nor does it matter, who pushed more for the Marshall trade.

    So I don't think I've flip flopped. I've maintained from the beggining that I don't believe in "chemistry" as you defined it through the 72 team anecdote.
     
  12. slickj101

    slickj101 Is Water

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    Don't be ridiculous. Don't you see that Ireland hired Philbin and decided to great him with a donkeypunch by trading away his best WR without poor Joe even knowing or having a say?

    Clearly any rational person would see that as the most likely scenario.
     
  13. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yep. Back in the old Finheaven days.

    But that's not even the point and I don't even care. I'm sure if you went back I defended Wanny at some point and I certainly liked the Cameron hire at the time, and I advocated for Parcells. So whatever, but let's not have pots calling kettles black here.
     
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  14. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    It's always interesting when the best argument people can come up with is to be flat out dishonest. Guess that's just the way it goes.
     
  15. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    So, we are to believe that Ireland does not have autonomy on personnel? He has to also carry out the whims and fancies of Ross? Could this have just been Ross trying to make things seem better to the media?
     
  16. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    You defended Wanny?

    BLASTPHEMER!
     
  17. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    It could be Steve Ross merely saying what Ireland had decided already which was that they'd be cutting Marshall if they couldn't trade him.
     
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  18. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    That was beautifully passive aggressive.

    The only thing that would be more passive aggressive is if it was a note on someone's fridge
     
  19. jinx

    jinx Well-Known Member

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    I guess I just have a hard time believing Philbin went to Ireland and said "I can't stomach Brandon Marshall in my locker room but lets give Chad Johnson a shot." BTW, no one has ever said Philbin didn't want Marshall traded. As has been documented, he generally cedes those decisions to the personnel people, just like he did with the Davis trade.

    Multiple reporters reported that Philbin wanted Marshall out?
     
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  20. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I agree, but I thought it was pretty low for him to refer to you as the lawyer who is never right on this forum.
     
  21. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    As a practical matter, Philbin either agreed with the move or he didn't. It's simply not credible that he would have been ambivalent about Brandon Marshall and whether he should be on the team. When asked at the time the reasons for it he said "we" felt it was in the best interests of the team going forward. When asked later if he had "any regrets" he said "not really." multiple reporters reported that the trade was made at Philbin's request. No evidence exists to indicate that it was done at Ireland's initiative or that Philbin disagreed with it in any way, shape or form.

    If you're uncomfortable with my choice of words, I will amend it for you to say: "What is absurd to me is the suggestion that within a few months of hiring Philbin largely to shore up the offense, Ireland traded away the team's most prominent offensive player on his own initiative and without Philbin's agreement and yet there has not been a single report of any conflict over that decision.
     
  22. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    That's nothing.

    In Shula's book, he writes that Jake Scott (The MVP of the SB) told him to go "**** himself" during a meeting, and called him "unimportant."

    Jim Mandich used to tell stories of Jake Scott LOUDLY remarking how much he didn't respect the HC (Shula).
     
  23. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Very true. It could be. It just seems what often starts out here as someone's speculation, eventually evolves into historical facts.
     
  24. jinx

    jinx Well-Known Member

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    IIRC, during his interview tour before the draft, Ireland said they had no plans to cut Marshall.

    So yeah, your last sentence.
     
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  25. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    I guess if Philbin would have taken over the 73 or 74 Dolphins team he'd have wanted Scott and Morris traded, because they were bad for team chemistry. :wink2:
     
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  26. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Hand crafted with care.
     
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  27. jinx

    jinx Well-Known Member

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    Link?
     
  28. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    That's a MORE factual representation of jinx's stated, explicitly-written opinion on the matter, but still an incomplete one. You're still implying that jinx said that the trade was made without Philbin's agreement. That is false.
     
  29. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    Multiple reporters who follow the team pretty closely, including Dave Hyde and Barry Jackson, reported that Philbin wanted Marshall to be traded and didn't see him as a good fit here.


    Dave Hyde reported that Philbin was the one who wanted Marshall traded:

    http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/20...826-1_1_philbin-vontae-davis-brandon-marshall

    Barry Jackson similarly reported that Philbin didn't see Marshall as a good fit.



    http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/14/2691697/miami-dolphins-trade-receiver.html#storylink=cpy


    Philbin's statements at the time also make that fairly clear, although he was not explicit about i, as do the circumstances. I think it is fairly clear that Brandon Marshall would not have been a subject Philbin was ambivalent about. If he wanted Marshall here and Ireland traded him out from under Philbin against Philbin's knowledge or wishes, we certainly would have heard about it. We do know that Philbin and Ireland work together and discuss major personnel moves. We know Philbin said he doesn't believe you need to have a No. 1 receiver. We know that the team was planning, or at least thinking, about drafting a first round QB and that Marshall can be very hard on QBs. We know that Philbin is a bit "prudish" for lack of a better term and is extremely concerned about appearances and how the players conduct themselves in public and in the locker room. I think it all paints a reasonably clear picture that Philbin would not have been a big Brandon Marshall fan.

    Do you know of any facts, or even speculation, to suggest that Philbin liked Marshall, wanted Marshall, or was even the slightest bit unhappy or displeased about the trade?
     
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  30. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Eh, whatever. I don't fancy myself a football expert. Just a fan.

    If he questioned my competency at my actual job I'd be pissed.
     
  31. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    It appears you are being facetious, but I think that may well have been the case. Nobody knows.
     
  32. Section126

    Section126 We are better than you. Luxury Box

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    they don't exist. But I am sure that somebody will post those two pieces of Hyde and Jackson speculating and attributing the decision to Philbin. it's what always happens.
     
  33. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    You make some good points. For some reason though, Lovie Smith and Mike Tice are able to deal with Marshall. Under their leadership, he's had his best season as a pro. Which makes me wonder, just a little since it's early, whether Philbin was the best choice we could have made?
    Seems like any player with some personality quirks, he doesn't want to deal with them. Just get rid of them and get some more former Eagle Scouts. I am really kind of surprised he kept Richie Incognito around. He'll be gone next year though.
     
  34. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Being fully honest (that one's for you, Dupree), I acknowledge that we have two seemingly contradictory statements from Joe Philbin. In one he clearly identified himself along with others as the decision makers on the Brandon Marshall trade. He used the word "we". But in the other he clearly separated himself as someone that could be in a position to second guess the decision makers on the Brandon Marshall trade. It's contradictory.

    Personally I'm not that interested in the "we" comment. By default in a "one voice" organization (which the Dolphins have explicitly stated they are) the head coach is expected to always refer in first person plural or singular about decisions made. Talking about how so-and-so, not him, made X decision is an opening for the press to sow the perception of rift. It's not a smart thing to do and the Dolphins have stated they have a "one voice" approach, most recently with Karlos Dansby when he expressed his displeasure at OchoCinco getting cut.

    What's actually interesting (and telling) to me is that whether by accident, slip of the tongue, or on purpose, Philbin temporarily broke from that convention by talking about himself being in position to potentially second guess a decision which wasn't really his. That's more interesting and telling to me.
     
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  35. jinx

    jinx Well-Known Member

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    No, but that's not what I'm arguing. I'm saying Jeff Ireland was moving on from Brandon Marshall regardless of who the new coach was, and it's likely he laid out his reasons to Philbin and he supported his decision.
     
  36. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Me too, which makes me think less of his being hired.
     
  37. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    When you have an actual point to make, please let me know.

    What jinx said is that the implication that Philbin was the driving force behind the Marshall trade was "absurd." Not just that he isn't convinced of it or hasn't seen enough evidence of it, but that it is "absurd." the definition of "absurd" is "ridiculously unreasonable, unsound or incongruous" or "having no rational or orderly relationship to human life." If it is credible that Philbin agreed with and supported the trade, the "possibility" that he was the driving force behind it would hardly be "absurd."
     
  38. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    IMO, of course. Jeff Ireland's boss is Stephen Ross. Its only logical to believe that if Ross tells him to do something, that he'll oblige.

    What exactly would be the motivation for Ireland to do that? The two biggest negatives about Marshall were the fact that he was difficult in the locker-room, and his price tag. But neither of those really affect Jeff Ireland. He doesn't have to coach or pay Marshall. I can see the motivation for Ireland to trade Marshall, because that gives him draft picks. But cut him? Doesn't add up to me.

    IMO the likely scenario is that A) coaches didn't like dealing with Marshall the two years he was in Miami, and B) a lot of the coaches they interviewed was apprehensive of taking on Marshall. Once Stephen Ross discovered that Brandon Marshall wasn't necessarily welcomed by coaches, he likely asked why he's paying so much for this guy, and decided it would be a no-brainer. He could make a move that would save him money without pissing off his coaching staff. Its pretty rare where an owner can save money without giving his coach the impression that he's sacrificing the team for the sake of his wallet.
     
  39. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    But what is the basis for that argument? Any links, quotes, etc?

    Trading away one of the team's most talented and popular players is a big decision and one that IMO few GMs are likely to do without the HC's consent and agreement.
     
  40. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Exactly.
     

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