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Philbin and the "PASS" he is getting

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by 2socks, Dec 13, 2012.

  1. 2socks

    2socks Rebuilding Since 1973

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    There are numerous threads on this board about several different topics and one that few if any seem to be talking about.

    We are 5-8 . If Sparano was coach this place would be a mad house with fire The Coach , and the typical everyday Fire Ireland. For some reason Joe Philbin and his staff are free from criticism's and analysis.

    Why???
     
  2. PhinGeneral

    PhinGeneral PC Texas A&M, Bro Club Member

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    Because it's his first year.and he needs time to implement his system and shape.the roster accordingly
     
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  3. byroan

    byroan Giggity Staff Member Administrator Luxury Box

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    He's a rookie coach.

    He's light years ahead of Sparano when it comes to clock management.
     
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  4. CrunchTime

    CrunchTime Administrator Retired Administrator

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    Sparano also was given a break by fans because they gave him a chance to prove himself .After he proved he was not up to the task the fans turned on him .Unfortunately he was allowed to coach one year too many.

    Philbin will be given a couple of years to prove himself.He has done enough to avoid the Cam Cameron effect so he will be given more space to be able to get the kind of players he wants and to implement the kind of team he wants.
     
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  5. Patssuck

    Patssuck Well-Known Member

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    Um, because this roster has very few playmakers. Because we are changing both our offense and defense. Because Sparano had 3 losing seasons in a row.
     
  6. Hurricane

    Hurricane Guest

    I don't know. He's not a likable guy from where I'm sitting, so there's that. The jury is still out on his coaching ability.
     
  7. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    Look Ireland, we're going to need you to go and fire yourself, ok?
     
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  8. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    Rookie HC...he didnt pull a Cam Cam....do you really think a rookie Head Coach is going to be flamed and ran out of town after his first season while theres still a chance to pull a .500 record (which would be amazing tbh) with one of the worst starting rosters in the history of the world????????? Wow... Now i've seen and heard everything this season......raw-ish rookie QB.... with a roster near completely devoid of playmaking talent outside of, dare I say 4 positions.... meanwhile trying to completely change our teams offensive philosphy .... on a team known for being mediocre for atleast a decade....it is the elementry school level math question equivalent of an obvious to-be-expected bad season in the NFL. The fact that this team has won more than 2 or 3 games is impressive.

    But what can I say, several people hate just to hate. He will be here 2 more years at a minimum, i'm sure. Personally unless he proves otherwise, I think the guy is great.

    edit: tl;dr simplified: Yes- Rookie HC + Rookie QB + Obvious lack of playmaking talent = Pass
     
  9. Patssuck

    Patssuck Well-Known Member

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    And?
     
  10. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    False premise. Philbin is not getting a free pass. This team is much better coached than the Sparano squads. There's some sporadic complaining about Philbin or some of the assistant coaches, like how Kevin Coyle kept Wake off the field during the Patriots' final drive. But you can basically go down the roster, look at each player, and say they're playing at least a little bit better than they were last year.

    That improvement isn't enough, however, because the talent level isn't high enough.
     
  11. DevilFin13

    DevilFin13 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I prefer to question things he has more direct control over than our record. Like; why are we 14th in rush attempts despite the fact that we are 21st in rushing yards per attempt? If the answer is something like "protect Tanny", the follow up question would be; why isn't the line performing better, is this a problem with coaching or talent/skill?
     
  12. krypto

    krypto Banned

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    It's all hypocritical. People here give Philbin a pass because he's "rookie coach" yet these same people will bash Ryan Tannehill.....

    Sent from my LT30at using Tapatalk 2
     
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  13. BlameItOnTheHenne

    BlameItOnTheHenne Taking a poop

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    1st year HC w/ a rookie QB and they were in the playoff race up until last week. He's doing very well with what he has been given.
     
  14. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    How incompetent would this organization look hiring a rookie head coach and firing him after one year? You must have some level of patience when hiring a rookie head coach unless he ****s the bed or fails forward fastest.

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. Hiruma78

    Hiruma78 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    I think he gets a pass because most of the fans despised the coaching skills of Sparano... I am not saying they were right, but I think Philbin, to many eyes, is looking good just comparing to the FieldGoalHero/ClockManagementStar/FistPumpMaster/OffensiveLineGuru Tony Sparano

    besides, unless a coach is CamCameron bad, I guess 2 years are almost guaranteed..if at the end of the next year there won'ìt be clearly general improvemente with the team I think there is a good possibility that he will be canned

    (and as little note, I think that Sherman is being criticized...just not at a Dan Henning level, but here&in other forums I read many accusing Sherman to be the true problem (but the hate for the OffensiveC is apparently quite common, reading some other teams fans board, in the all NFL)
     
  16. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    The second person to be blamed after a loss is the OC. The first are always the refs collectively. The HC can be second sometimes, but that usually entails doing something boneheaded.
     
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  17. Serpico Jones

    Serpico Jones Well-Known Member

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    If his team loses on Sunday things are going to get very ugly for Philbin moving forward.
     
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  18. Hurricane

    Hurricane Guest

    Good post.

    Being likable is a desired trait when your job is to lead a group of 53 men, mostly delinquents, in addition to a full staff.
     
  19. Shamboubou

    Shamboubou Well-Known Member

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    The product on the field shows a lack of talent more than a lack of coaching for the most part. I want to see him with his chosen talent.
     
  20. dolfan32323

    dolfan32323 ty xphinfanx

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    He has time management skills, for starters.

    I can't emphasize how amazing it is not to have Morano on the sideline burning timeouts and mismanaging the clock like it's going out of style.
     
  21. FanMarino

    FanMarino Season Ticket Holder

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    Likeability doesn't come into it for me right now. His job is getting the team into a winning one. One season isn't going to put me off him.
     
  22. finsincebirth

    finsincebirth Well-Known Member

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    Not really. It's better to be respected than liked, and that goes beyond being a head coach. Many job interviews will ask you if it's better for a manager to be respected or like. If you exist to far too the likable continuum then you are less likely to get a response out of your employees when you need to crack down and be a tough ***. To far to the respected and you may struggle in the interpersonal aspect of leading and that can cause problems as well. Ideally you want to be a mix of liked and respected but if you have to lean to one side it's being respected. There are plenty of coaches in the past that were probably not liked by their players, but were successful because they were respected. In fact I would argue that the foundation of the "hardass coach" archetype is based off a stronger desire for respect than likability.
     
  23. Fineas

    Fineas Club Member Luxury Box

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    I'm not particularly convinced that the team is much better coached than the Sparano teams. It certainly doesn't look better coached than Sparano's first season. Compared to last year as a whole (keeping in mind that Sparano wasn't here at the end), penalties and penalty yards are up a little, boneheaded plays seem to be up a little, turnovers are up a little, clock management has been nothing special, etc. I also don't think it's true that all or most players are playing better than last year. Long, Incognito, Bush, Fasano, Clay, Soliai (about the same), Odrick (about the same) and Sean Smith (about the same; maybe a little better) come to mind as guys who are not playing better than last year.
     
  24. Patssuck

    Patssuck Well-Known Member

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    Do you know him personally or something? Also many successful head coaches are anything but likable.
     
  25. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Staff Member Club Member

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    A few reasons. First... we're we supposed to be better than 5-8? No, we wern't. In fact, many didn't expect us to even win 5 games all season. So, IMO, his team is over achieving and he is doing a good. If we were 5-8 but were supposed to be a playoff front runner, that would be different.

    Also, Sparano would have been killed for going 5-8 b/c it would have been his 5th year here. By that point, as a HC you should have been able to mold a better team than that. Philbin is just getting started, has implemented new schemes on both sides of the ball, and is starting a rookie QB. Some may be holding him to the playoffs or bust standard.. but I think most reasonable fans realize it doesn't work that way...
     
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  26. Hurricane

    Hurricane Guest

    There's a grey area between the poles where the great coaches lie.

    No coach will ever approach Vince Lombardi's legacy, but he was the perfect example.
     
  27. Hurricane

    Hurricane Guest

    Yes, I do. Tom Clements is my father-in-law. I've had the privilege of being on the sidelines of Lambeau Field numerous times, and I can tell you that a good portion of the Packers hated Joe and routinely went over his head to McCarthy. Mike liked him, and that's why he stayed on board for as long as he did, but things fell apart after the divisional round....when our HC job opened up, Mike and Joe mutually agreed that it was the best path for him to take, for everyone involved....except us. We were left with ego-inflated rook.
     
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  28. Hiruma78

    Hiruma78 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    really? this is very interesting (when you say packers, do you mean coach or players or both?) anyway, do you know why hated? because he is a j*****s or just an obsessive with precision coach or some other reason?
     
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  29. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Is being likable to you a desired trait when your job is to lead a group of 53 men, mostly delinquents, in addition to a full staff?

    Because they all seem to love the guy.
     
  30. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I call bull****.
     
  31. Hurricane

    Hurricane Guest

    Lol it was just sarcasm--the part where I revealed such disappeared. Apologies.
     
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  32. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    I was no Sparano supporter, but the fact is that in his rookie season as a HC in the NFL, he took the Dolphins to the playoffs with a 11-5 regular season. This after inheriting a team which was 1-15 the previous season.

    Philbin inherited a team which went 6-10 last year, but was 6-3 over their last nine games. The team was said by many on here, to have plenty of talent and the losing records from 2009 through 2011 were blamed on Sparano's poor coaching.

    This years team has scored less points per game and given up more points on defense than the 2011 team did through 13 games. I think this team has a severe lack of talent, but I also question if Philbin will turn out to be a quality NFL HC. I wanted Fisher for the job and I think that in a few years, many people will realize that Fisher is a better HC than Philbin. It would not surprise me if the Dolphins aren't searching for a new HC in another few years.

    If the only good thing that you can say about Philbin, in comparison to Sparano, is that he has better clock management. I think it is right to be concerned about his ability as an NFL head coach.
     
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  33. Hiruma78

    Hiruma78 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    damn, I really hoped/believed you had some inside-infos, shame on me, :smackhead: :sidelol:

    better this way, though, it would have bee4n discouraging if they all hated him and wanted him out
     
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  34. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    So... you're pointing out that the team is not as talented as some on here have pointed out, yet you are saying the team should have won more games because some on here have pointed out the team has plenty of talent. Am I the only one that is confused by your argument?

    And i think just because byroan has only listed one postiive in comparison of Philbin to Sparano that doesn't mean it's the ONLY difference.
     
  35. finsincebirth

    finsincebirth Well-Known Member

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    Please tell me you didn't really compare Philbin's first year to Sparano's? The logic behind that is so flawed that it is ridiculous.
     
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  36. ToddPhin

    ToddPhin Premium Member Luxury Box Club Member

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    Wrong
    Let me fix it.
     
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  37. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    WHy?
     
  38. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I don't give Joe Philbin a free pass.

    I think it's a valid topic of discussion though because on a purely theoretical/hypothetical basis, there's always this assumption that a new coach "needs time" to establish his system and get the team running the way he wants it to, but I'm wondering how valid that is for a couple of reasons. It's not that I'm trying to question whether the earth revolves around the sun all the sudden, but I do think it's a topic that merits discussion especially in certain circumstances.

    CLEARLY we could come up with plenty of examples where a new staff came in and made a big impact immediately. There are at least 36 of them, as a matter of fact, with varying degrees of overall success with their teams.

    *We have a good example of that ourselves in 2008. From 1-15 to 11-5.

    *Similarly Mike Smith in Atlanta takes a 4-12 Falcons team and turns them into an 11-5 team, which got Smith Co-Coach of the Year along with Tony Sparano if I remember correctly.

    *Jim Harbaugh takes hold of the 6-10 San Francisco 49ers and turns them into a 13-3 juggernaut in his first year.

    *Though Ken Whisenhunt is probably on the outs he did take a 5-11 Cardinals team and turn them into an 8-8 team in that first year, and the NFC Champion the following year.

    *Rex Ryan took over a 9-7 team and brought them to a 9-7 record so that looks the same but the fact of the matter is he brought that 9-7 team to the AFC Championship Game.

    *John Harbaugh took a 5-11 team and turned them into a 11-5 team.

    *John Fox took over a 4-12 Broncos team and turned them into an 8-8 team.

    *For that matter, John Fox took over a 1-15 Carolina Panthers disaster and brought them to 7-9 in the next year.

    *Mike McCarthy took over a 4-12 team from Mike Sherman and turned them into an 8-8 team.

    *Gary Kubiak may not have achieved having a 'great' or even 'good' team in his first year but he took over a team that was 2-14 and improved them to 6-10 the following year.

    *Marvin Lewis took over a 2-14 Bengals disaster and immediately turned them into an 8-8 team. Though the Bengals are commonly laughed at through the years, since that 8-8 turnaround rookie year, Lewis' Bengals are 0.486 with 3 playoff appearances and possibly another one this year. It's not overly impressive but consider that in the five years prior the Bengals were a ridiculous 0.238 team.

    *Tony Dungy took over a 6-10 Indianapolis Colts club and turned them into 10-6 playoff team.

    *While we're on the subject of the Colts, the combination of Chuck Pagano and Bruce Arians have taken a 2-14 Colts team and turned them into a 9-4 team.

    *Jon Gruden took over a 9-7 playoff team from Tony Dungy and improved them to 12-4, winning the Super Bowl in the process.

    *And while we're on the subject of Gruden, he took a 4-12 Raiders team and improved them to 8-8 in the following year.

    *Marty Schottenheimer took over a Chiefs team that was 4-11-1 and turned them into an 8-7-1 team the following year.

    *Sticking with Martyball, he took over a 5-11 San Diego Chargers team and turned them into an 8-8 team his first year there.

    *Denny Green generally considered to be a success in Minnesota, took over a 8-8 team and improved them to 11-5 in his first year.

    *Bill Parcells is largely considered a success at several spots. He took over 2-14 Patriots team and achieved a 5-11 improvement in his first year there.

    *He then took over a 1-15 Jets team and improved them to 9-7 in his first year in New York.

    *He then took over a 5-11 team from Dave Campo in Dallas and turned them into a 10-6 playoff team in his first year there.

    *His disciple Sean Payton took over a 3-13 New Orleans Saints team and led them to a 10-6 record with a playoff berth in his first year.

    *Tom Coughlin's improvement in his first year with the Giants was only modest, but it was still there. He took over a 4-12 team and brought them to 6-10. Then brought them two Super Bowls.

    *Similarly modest but measurable improvement from Andy Reid in Philadelphia, from 3-13 to 5-11.

    *Mike Tomlin took over an 8-8 Pittsburgh Steelers in Bill Cowher's last year as a coach and turned them into a 10-6 playoff team the following year.

    *For that matter, Bill Cowher took over a 7-9 team in Chuck Noll's final year as a coach and immediately turned them around into a 11-5 playoff team.

    *Here's a case of setting the bar extremely high yet still achieving improvement. In George Seifert's final year in San Fran he led a 12-4 team that went to the divisional round of the playoffs. He was fired for it. Steve Mariucci took over and led them to a 13-3 record with a playoff bye and an appearance in the NFC Championship Game.

    *I think Pete Carroll is considered a success in Seattle (he should be). He took over a 5-11 team and brought them to a 7-9 record WITH a division title and playoff berth in his first year there.

    *Still on the subject of the Seahawks, it may be modest improvement but Mike Holmgren took over an 8-8 non playoff team from Dennis Erickson and brought them to a 9-7 record with a playoff appearance his first year there. They lost to the Dolphins. Dan Marino versus Jon Kitna, whadya gonna do.

    *Just this year, Jeff Fisher takes over a 2-14 St. Louis Rams and has them at .500 with a 6-6-1 record.

    *Speaking of Jeff Fisher, he took over a 2-14 club from Jack Pardee and brought them to a more respectable 7-9 the following year.

    *Modest improvement from Joe Gibbs as he took over a 5-11 club from Steve Spurrier and brought them to a 6-10 record before going to the playoffs in 2 out of his final 3 seasons as a head coach.

    *For that matter Gibbs also achieved modest improvement when he took over the Redskins from the previously mentioned Pardee, bringing them from 6-10 to 8-8.

    *Probably the last successful coach the Bills have had since Marv Levy (who himself took over a 4-12 club and led them to a 7-8 record the next year) is Wade Phillips, who took over a 6-10 team from Levy and turned it around into a 10-6 record his first year. He went 11-5 and then 8-8 the following two years, and was fired.

    *Similarly poor Wade took over Bill Parcells' 9-7 Dallas Cowboys that got tossed out of the wildcard round and turned them into a 13-3 juggernaut...that also got tossed out of the first round of the playoffs. Still, that's marked improvement.


    On the other hand, I can only find 11 coaches who had successful runs with their team who did not get immediate improvement out of them.

    *Lovie Smith took over a 7-9 Chicago Bears team from Dick Jauron. He only led them to a 5-11 record the following year. Since then he's 74-51 with a Super Bowl appearance and a separate NFC Championship Game appearance.

    *Jack Del Rio took over a 6-10 unit from Tom Coughlin and led them to a 5-11 record. Though Del Rio has since been fired and Coughlin has since won two Super Bowls with the Giants, Del Rio did amass a respectable 40-24 record over the 4 years proceeding that 5-11 rookie year.

    *Since I mentioned Tony Dungy with the Colts I should probably mention that when he was with the Buccaneers he took over 7-9 Sam Wyche team and turned in a 6-10 year in his rookie year. The rest of Dungy's career is history, obviously.

    *Dick Vermeil is largely considered a success with the Kansas City Chiefs, but he took over a 7-9 team and went 6-10 with them in his first year with that particular team.

    *Marty Schottenheimer only got one year to prove his worth in Washington, but took over an 8-8 team that stayed at 8-8 in his one year. He was fired for it.

    *Dick Vermeil took over a 6-10 St. Louis Rams and only led them to a 5-11 record in his first year back in coaching after a long layoff. He actually went 4-12 the next year too, but then won the Super Bowl in his third year.

    *You want to talk about setting the bar a little too high? Try being Mike Martz and taking over a 13-3 Super Bowl Champion and trying to improve on that. Not really possible. He went 10-6 with an early playoff exit.

    *Since we're going pretty far back, Jimmy Johnson took over a 3-13 Dallas Cowboys from Tom Landry and only achieved 1-15 that first year.

    *And when he took over the 9-7 Dolphins, he only achieved an 8-8 record the following year.

    *If you go waaaay back, Bill Parcells took over a 4-5 Giants in the strike year of 1982 and only achieved 3-12-1 in the following year.

    *Probably the best example of patience paying off is Bill Belichick's taking over a 9-7 team from Pete Carroll and only bringing home a 6-10 record in his first year.

    So I think it's fair to beg the question if Joe Philbin only goes 6-10 or even 5-11...what are we supposed to think of him? When only ~25% of the coaches above failed to achieve improvement in their first years, I think it's something you have to pay attention to.

    Remember the bill of goods that we were sold heading into the season. This was not a 6-10 team in 2011. The record said 6-10 but it wasn't a 6-10 team, we were told. Ireland had put together a roster of good players but the coaching wasn't there. Now, as we fast approach 6-10 again, I'm wondering how that story is going to be amended.
     
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  39. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    I think people's emotions are clouding judgement because I do not see how this team is coached any better than under Sparano.

    The offense isn't running more smoothly. You can say at this point of last season that the offense was running better under Sparano. At least Miami beat the bad teams instead of losing to both Buffalo and Tennesee. They killed Kansas City instead of being killed by the Titans.

    The defense was doing better as well. They had a rush of turnovers toward the end of the season.

    As the 2012 season has gone on the offense has not looked any better since the beginning of the season and the defense has been decently steady, however has gotten worse with turnovers. In fact I would say the defense has gotten worse because at the beginning of the season they were one of the better pass rating defenses, run stopping defenses and 3rd down defenses. Now they are either bad or in the middle of the road.

    Other than less questionable time outs, which the 49ers have tons of and they are well coached, I don't see much coaching improvement over Sparano.
     
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  40. Paul 13

    Paul 13 Chaotic Neutral & Unstable Genius Staff Member

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    CK, I think you could have saved yourself a lot of time if you had limited your post to only rookie head coaches. That's certainly a big difference in my mind between a rookie head coach and a head coach who is on at least his second go around (where the expectations are inherently higher).
     

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