Mike Mayock: Team speed, not Ryan Tannehill, is the problem with the offense

I'm sorry my friend but you can't teach explosiveness & playmaking ability. You either have it or you don't. Hartline & Bess simply don't have it. They're a pair of unexplosive, non playmaking possession receivers who constrict an offense's potential when having to serve as primary targets. As complimentary pieces they're above average; as a starting duo, however, they're severely deficient.

 

Lloyd doesn't need to be fast when he has decent football speed and outstanding ball skills & physical ability downfield to make him an actual vertical threat..... which Hartline does not. Do I need to post videos of Lloyd's downfield ability to show how dissimilar he and Hartline are with the ball in the air?

 

Size has nothing to do with it. Victor Cruz is smaller than Hartline but makes more plays with the ball in his hands in 1 game than Hartline does in a career.

2 combined TDs doesn't prove anything but that they don't deserve to be starting.

 

.....so then why can he only muster 1 TD from it? How many times does he have to fall down after the catch, not elude 1 open field defender, and not break a weak ankle tackle for you to believe his presence as a starter holds back our scoring potential?

This is football. The play doesn't stop as soon as the receiver catches the ball. If he can't extend a play beyond that then he's a complimentary piece at best, especially when the rules favor the receiver.

 

You read that wrong. I meant an emphasis on it in player acquisition.

 

Don't agree. They are starters.

 

He's not explosive. That's obvious. But he's a starter. He's proven that much. You don't do what he's doing and not be considered a starter. Antonio Brown is highly praised and he's similar to Hartline.

 

Exactly, and that's a great point.
Rice might've timed slow but he was faster with pads on and had very good long speed. When he was at the top of his route he often outpaced the coverage, but that doesn't show up in a 40 time. Ditto for slants and the speed to split defenders and then not get caught from behind. Conversely, every downfield yard Hartline runs is a yard defensive backs have time to recover.

 

Not as a pair they're not.
You can get away with Bess starting in the slot depending on what you have on the outside.
You can get away with Hartline starting depending on what you have as a top target and in the slot.
But you can't get away with both Hartline starting at flanker AND Bess starting in the slot, let alone Bess starting at split end.

Whether or not they have starting ability is entirely dependent upon who the surrounding cast is, which that in and of itself should serve an indication of just how limited they are as starters.

 

Statement from Philbin defending Tannehill after the San Fran game:

 

I can agree with that. Greg Jennings would be ideal.

 

Ideally IMO, they'd need 2 players added so that we wouldn't have to worry about masking their lack of scoring ability in the redzone but could still use them between the 20's to move the chains.
TBH, Hart would see more action than Bess between the 20's b/c he can play all 3 positions at a higher combined level IMO, and b/c he offers an extra dimension + expanded playbook opportunities due to an increased ability to stretch the field from the slot and pull more coverage with him than Bess can. As a starter on the perimeter he doesn't offer that type of threat.
On 3rd & short they can both be on the field due to their ability to gain quick separation.
On 1st down and 2nd & short I wouldn't want Bess in action other than providing breathers b/c otherwise you're taking potential big plays off the field.
In the redzone, Bess would see more action b/c can at least make a few guys miss in space if he has the space to work with. Our current WR-TE group doesn't draw enough coverage <spread out the defense enough> to give Bess enough space to make redzone plays. He's not really a redzone threat but he could definitely take advantage of matchup problems created by better redzone threats around him.

There's things that they're inadequate at, but there are also things they can do quite well. The key is having the surrounding cast capable of putting Bess & Hart only in roles where they're an asset while avoiding ones that hinder, b/c as starters together, not only are they limited but they also limit their surrounding cast.

However, I'm not sure how feasible this all is based on the cost to employ both plus sign a top FA. Between the two, Hartline has more value IMO, and if it came down to it I'd either cut Bess to retain Hartline or structure Hart's contract to let us retain both until letting Bess walk after next year.

 

My goodness, do you know why no one bothers with what coaches have to say?

 

B/c they know more than coaches? lol

 

Coaches, as a policy, lie, lie, lie, lie.

Obfuscate, menti.

You name it, they have no reason at all to say anything at all about what actually happened.

 

So you're saying he's lying by intentionally dogging his receivers? That doesn't make sense.

 

Who is more important in the big picture?

 

I dont see a sincere coach like Philbin scapegoating anyone to make another look better. Doesn't seem like a good way to gain player trust and get your guys to give you 100%.

 

Probably the whole team. The passing stats of Ryan Tannehill mean less to a coach than the W-L stats.

 

Tannehill is struggling (well, it is not like the rest of the team is blooming...sean smith? poor nolan carrole? trusnick? randy starks? our OL? our running backs? our special teams?) and he needs to improve.... but who doesn't in today NFL?! maybe Rodgers or Manning and even them, I am not sure.... sayin he needs to improve is saying nothing, honestly, because in a competitive game like this, everyone has to improve all the time, to react against the adjustment of the other teams and so on...
we just have to see how he develops, there is no shortcut
for now, there are some very goooooood signs, but also some freaking dumb decisions (throwing away on the 4th down, jesus...)... we will have to wait... and for sure, getting him some playmakers (the only one, at the moment, is Reggie Bush), just to see how fun can be when your wr breaks a tackles and runs for a big gain or catghing a simple jump ball in EndZone

 

I'd suggest you actually.

You did just post a few lines above that we only need "depth" at the WR position.
So in essence you are saying the starting WR corp is loaded.

 

What Mayock stated is obvious and it shouldn't take someone such as him suggesting it for people to see that.

The shortcomings of our WR corp. were talked about by many on here prior to the season even starting.
Not worth even debating anymore.

Admittedly there are other issues and Tannehill is part of that discussion. That said, to dismiss that the WR corp missing a true top tier threat and the negative affect that has on a number of elements for the offense is just folly at this point.

 

And yet there isn't a single objective study that illustrates it. It's all theory.

What's "folly" is to be so certain of something that hasn't been researched objectively, and which is unsupported if not controverted by the objective research that actually has been done, but that's par for the course here.

The people here are omniscient beings whose personal theories are gospel, and any differing viewpoint, even if it's supported objectively, is "folly."

 

I disagree. This isn't science, it's football. One cannot control the experiments. Subjective analysis, subjective to ones knowledge and experience, is valid for debate. You just have to be able to defend and explain it. If this wasn't true the draft wouldn't be what it is, and GMs would all be MIT graduates. Also, a posters history matters for me, as far as accuracy in the past, and agenda pushing.

Sent from my SGH-T959V using Tapatalk 2

 

cant we go talk about Chad Henne a non dolphin in one of the 5 threads currently on a Miami Dolphins board.......no okay

Let me try this:

Mike Mayock sucks and I don't care for him


There now this thread is over.....no


But it works for others

 

No, thats actually not the essence of what I said.

 

Good luck finding any poster here, including myself, whom you can trust to tell you anything you can believe with any certainty, regardless of their history or any agendas they may be pushing. You're much better off trusting objective research that's been done in an unbiased manner.

 

This is a ridiculous assertion. Sorry. I know that you wanted Moore to start and hate Tannehill ( you said it.), but it is obvious to everyone that PART of the problem is that we have no dynamic pass catchers.

 

Didnt you say this team should be 11-2 right now? If so, I find Mayock much more credible.

 

Tannehill is not the problem. It is as Mayock says and like our discussions were before the season. We don't have enough speed at the receiver position. Or enough talent. Really you keep Hartline and Bess and dump every other one. There is almost Zero production from any of them. While your at it grab a real stud TE, too.

 

I want to see the analysis. Not “player X sucks, trust me”. I want to see the reasons that they think that player X sucks. All you can really get from stat analysis is trends, and as soon as you do anything but pure stat analysis objectivity is gone. Football is too random. Two quarterbacks can play the same D, but they’ll have different teammates, run different systems, play in different weather, different times of the day, have different people hurt on that D, etc… If you want to say X qb played better than Y, you absolutely have to have some sort of subjective analysis to form a conclusion that is valid. And if you start projecting how someone is going to develop, or what is holding them back…

 

Where have you been?
This is way too reasonable an analysis of the situation.
Thanks

 

He's not?

This is from Sports exchange:

12/10/12 - QB Ryan Tannehill has completed just 30-of-62 passes (48.4 percent) the past two weeks, and he has just eight touchdown passes all season.
12/09/12 - QB Ryan Tannehill completed just 17-of-33 passes (51.5 percent) for 150 yards, a touchdown and a 74.1 passer rating. Tannehill has had a passer rating under 75 in four of his last five games.
12/05/12 - QB Ryan Tannehill had a rough game against New England, completing just 13-of-29 passes and missing a wide open Brian Hartline a couple times on deep passes that could have been easy touchdowns. Tannehill said it wasn't easy watching the tape this week, but he vows to improve. "It's tough when you miss throws you make 99 times out of 100 in practice and even in games," he said. "It's frustrating, but you can't do anything about it, but move on (and) make the throws (the) next time they come up. I was definitely frustrated that night and when I watched the film, but I'm over it now and just ready to make the throws the next time it comes up."
12/05/12 - QB Ryan Tannehill is tied for 30th in passer rating (72.3), 26th in fourth-quarter passer rating (81.8) and 31st on third down (60.2).
12/02/12 - QB Ryan Tannehill's passer rating after 12 games is 72.3. He has just seven touchdown passes against 12 interceptions, plus two rushing touchdowns. His completion percentage Sunday, 44.8 percent, was his second lowest of the season. He hit on just 13 of 29 passes for 186 yards. His accuracy was off all game, as he missed wide-open receivers deep and threw several passes behind his receivers. He completed just 44.4 percent of his passes in a loss to the Jets earlier this year. Overall, he is completing just 57.9 percent of passes this season. Tannehill has played in five straight games since suffering a knee injury.

 

So you post those number means what Mr " we should be 11-2"?

 

posting 2 time the same stats in this thread quoting 2 different people and still another time in another thread(http://www.thephins.com/forums/show...-be-retained&p=1931939&viewfull=1#post1931939) makes the argument stronger and stronger. repetita juvant, for real!

 

Look at the numbers, they are garbage.

You do see that right?

last in the entire league, 30th. Hard to win with those kind of numbers.

We lack speed? He cant hit the players we got now.

I don't want to turn this into a bash THill thread but my goodness, lets be real here.

 

No one is debating that Tannehill is having a rougher year than we all had hoped, but Quarterback-Receiver production is a symbiotic relationship. His stats are a reflection on the production of the receivers as well to a degree. Most of this argument was predicated on the fact that it was all Ryan Tannehill's fault that we were losing despite the fact that he is a rookie quarterback, when really he doesn't have any room for error at all with this corps, something that the other rookies have a wider margin of. This was something that was apparent at the beginning of the year, disappeared in our minds with our string of tough wins (sans Oakland and Jets deux), and has resurfaced again lately.

How can you be surprised, and why are you hanging such unrealistic expectations on him given the circumstances?

EDIT:
Per 'Mando
Apparently, Henne has been keeping tabs on counterpart and replacement Ryan Tannehill. So what does he think of Miami's starting quarterbacK?
"I think he's done a great job for what he's been given," Henne said.

Even Chad Henne can see it :/

 

lets be real you posted numbers with zero context and blame it all on the rookie.