And why would I care who was on the 2008 team? It's irrelevant. We're are talking about today, not years ago. New coach, new system, different players..seriously? Lol!!!
My original post & point is Tanny is not the problem and he lacks talent around him. This isn't news. Ireland is on the hot seat and should be.
The point is that the 2008 team went 11-5 with no better talent around a QB who had a 97 QB rating as opposed to the 70 rating Tannehill has currently. In other words, your argument is that the team is struggling because the talent around Tannehill is lacking, whereas the 2008 team was proof that considerably better QB play could make a team reach the playoffs with similar (if not worse) talent elsewhere on the roster. It's a pretty simple point. The QB is a rookie, and he has a 70 QB rating, as rookie QBs typically do. Why that isn't the "default" explanation for the team's struggles I have no idea. Instead that explanation is discarded in favor of the more convoluted and less parsimonious argument that Tannehill is doing fine, despite the objective evidence that he's playing like a typical rookie QB, and the talent around him is to blame.
How can a player who plays the most important position on a team, whose performance is more strongly correlated with winning than that of any other player on a team, who's playing like rookies at his position typically do, not be the problem, i.e., a cause of the team's current difficulties? Come on. This is getting insane IMO. It's entirely possible that the rest of the roster needs to be upgraded as well, but to say that "Tanny is not the problem" decimates anyone's credibility IMO. This is a rookie QB we're talking about!
What was the topic..? ...No, he's not the sole problem....he doesn't have the talent around him.This isn't even a question to debate. My original post was in response to the thread... "My concern with Ryan Tannehill." I said he doesn't have an effective offensive line, has below average WR's that cannot get separation & (cannot stretch the field) and now the QB is playing with a short field and a non existent running game as defenses have made adjustments. The inability to stretch the field at WR causes many problems for the offensive line too. When teams can stack the line of scrimmage, it causes schematic confusion for the blocking assignments and one of the biggest reasons that the Offensive line is being abused. The reason Tannehill doesn't have the talent around, when Miami drafts so high year after year...IMO is because of Jeff Ireland's inability to be an effective GM. Comparing to the 2008 Team is a WASTE of time and not addressing the topic. The original posters concerns about Ryan Tannehill.
So how did Chad Pennington go 11-5 and make the playoffs with largely the same level of talent, and perhaps even worse talent at the offensive skilled positions? Chad Pennington had Ted Ginn (now an afterthought on offense in San Francisco), Greg Camarillo (currently with four receptions for the Saints), the same Anthony Fasano we have now, only with fewer years of development as a player under his belt, Ronnie Brown, who was nowhere near the threat Reggie Bush is to take it the distance on any play, and an offensive line that's largely similar in terms of overall talent? Was David Martin the difference? I suspect the difference was that Chad Pennington was a seasoned, very good QB who knew how to handle whatever was thrown at him by NFL defenses, and he made the talent around him better, which Ryan Tannehill is not yet ready to do.
That is the point though… IF Tannehill was a better leader DCarp wouldnt be missing all these FG's. Do you ever remember Venetari <sp> missing clutch FG's when he was with the PATs? Nope, and that was because Brady IS A LEADER! <eye roll>
Ok, you can keep going off topic...I'll stop replying after this so we can move on. The topic is, " Concerns with Ryan Tannehill," not what would a veteran QB do with this team vs a Rookie. Tannehill is the future, but he needs more talent around him....period. I don't think anyone in the NFL would say, maybe Miami just needs to get a veteran QB, cause the talents there for Miami. Lol.
there is no doubt that THill is part of the problem right now. He has to play better… but I can forgive a rookie QB's mistakes… if he is still making the same mistakes this time next year then we have a problem.
I'm forgiving his mistakes, too, but I'm certainly under no impression that he'd be playing unlike a typical rookie if he had better talent around him. He might be playing better, but he'd still be playing like a rookie.
What I am seeing from THill is what I was expecting. He has shown… made some great plays and he has stunk it up at times. That is what being a rookie QB in the NFL is about for the most part. I dont like the fact he is still locking on to receivers.. he needs to get past that.
Here was your original reply to the topic: Since then I've responded repeatedly to the idea that you presented that I bolded above, and you have yet to address it. But now you're done, so there.
you can talk ratings and 2008 and 11 wins, BUT what was that offense doing before the gimmick was brought in? jack.freakin.squat and when that gimmick offense got shutdown in the playoffs what happened? jack.freakin.squat once the wildcat got exposed and shutdown by a good defense, pennington did nothing in that playoff game. while 2008 was neat and i have NO issues with pennington, don't kid yourself. that offense SUCKED before the wildcat and sucked when it got shutdown against baltimore..and let's not forget the most important factor in that season: no tom brady.
Tedd Ginn, even if he didn't play Stella could stretch the field, current WRs cant. Camarillo was a more used and probably better player 4yrs ago and Saints have very good WRs in front of him on the roster. Ronnie Brown 4yrs ago would get an extra few yds after first contact, Bush is different type of player. Fasano is used more to block than he was 4yrs ago. I dont see your points as being valid.
what does it matter if you can stretch the field if you are a terrible wide receiver? Marlon Moore does run a 4.4.
That's my point this team is bad, and they do the best they can but **** is ****. What is killing the offense is the lack of running game, without it we are exposed, slow receivers that don't create separation and a weak OL, even Jake Long is playing like ****. This team is as bad as we thought it was and has no depth. Sunday I saw how good is Luck when he has no running game and Sanchez looked like a solid QB with the running game working and of course one with solid D and the other with 59 points scored on them.
You missing the point here Shou. We are talking about the 2012 Miami Dolphins, not the 2008 Miami Dolphins. The 2008 Miami Dolphins had Ronnie and Ricky relatively healthy, sprung the wildcat on the league, while having one of the weakest schedules that year. The only winning teams we beat were the Jets and the Pats. Brady was out, the Jets were trying an old, injured and unmotivated Farve, and the Bills were still going with Edwards. 2008 Chad Pennington would have trouble running the team this year. Hell, in 2008 we had what, one 3rd down conversion of 8 yards or longer? Pennington could do nothing that year without a legitimate run threat. Chad would have been a horrible fit for this offense, he couldn’t make the deep out throws needed, was far too fragile and not athletic enough to rollout, etc…
Back on topic, I watched a bunch of fourth quarters of Ryan's college Ames and I stand by my concern that he doesn't come through often enough when his team needs him late in games. A couple bad endings... Oklahoma and LSU cotton bowl really stood out.
Im not sure...how ....anyone can argue that having more weapons on offense...wouldnt help Tannehill as a rookie. If we had....Mike Wallace on the outside...would teams line up different on defense against us? If we had....Ron Gronkowski at TE...would teams like up different against us? If we had....Brian Buluga at RT..might we run more to the right side of the line then we currently do? Of course...having more playmakers would only help Tannehill....it certainly wouldnt hurt him.
So then why are we blaming this season on a lack of talent, versus 1) a tougher schedule, 2) the absence of a gimmick (i.e., the Wildcat), and 3) the relative strengths of our divisional foes?
Talent is the one thing you listed that can be controlled. The schedule is what it is, and it's not like college were they control the scheduling. Gimmicks don't work much, that's why they're called gimmicks. Finally, we cannot control our divisional foes.
Meh. I give up. lol. This is now a thread about the talent surrounding Tannehill. For the record, I think the rook makes the talent look worse and the talent makes the rook look worse. There. That clear things up?
So when we do well, it's due to circumstances beyond our control, and when we do poorly, it's due to talent.
Go back and check. The thread became about the talent surrounding Tannehill starting with reply number one. If you're going to point out something negative about Ryan Tannehill these days, expect it to be quickly attributed to his surrounding cast by a bevy of people. I saw the same thing happen with Chris Chambers and Chad Henne, and it was the source of endless debates. The problem is, as far as I can see, the forum has never been right in making this kind of attribution. There has never been a player who has been thought to be only a supporting cast away from being great, and who later became great once he obtained that supporting cast.
Here is my main concern with Tannheill 1 He at best, is mediocre 2 Do you really think he would be a starting QB for any other team in the NFL. No, teams with QB injuries now do not count. 3 If his former HC in college was not employed by the Dolphins do you honestly believe he would be the starting QB or even selected. 4 His long ball blows 5 He is about as mobil as a phone booth bolted down in 2 corners. 6 At best, he is OK. Beyond that there ain't much to write home about other then he was so good in college he helped get his HC fired and not allowed to even coach in the bowl game. 7 See all of the above. By no means am I related or a friend so I will say this. Moore should be the starter and should have been since the first game. The NFL pundits all could proclaim its great throwing a rookie into the firs but if this season goes south, the same guys will proclaim throwing the rookie into the fire was not a good idea.
Your statement, not mine. You seem to be fond of sweeping generalizations, or at least trying to turn anyone's posts who disagrees with you into them.
I agree, which is why the talent surrounding Tannehill isn't an unreasonable topic for this thread. Off the top of my head, Ricky Williams.
Chris Chambers and Chad Henne never became part of a great surrounding cast. Chris Chambers was too old by the time he went to the Chargers and then had marital problems and Henne is not nearly done with his career to even prove that false. Josh Freeman has looked a lot better this season with a better supporting cast. Steve Young is the poster child of having a better supporting cast. Mike Vick is another player who did play better once he got a better supporting cast.
This forum has never thought with unanimity as far as I know. But if you think no one was optimistic about Ricky before he got here... then how about Farve? Jets he sucked and was washed up, to one of the his best years on the vikings the following year.
What I'm getting at is, when have the people in this forum's estimations of who needed a supporting cast to become great ever been proven correct? In my recollection, never, yet we persist in thinking we know who is only a supporting cast away (i.e., Tannehill).
It certainly starts with Tannehill. He needs to develop. He needs to take in everything he's seeing each and every week, watch film, and use that brain of his to process that information in order to get better. We know he has the brain, or at least we think we know he has that brain. I hope he has it. He needs to make the in-game adjustments himself. See and feel how the defense is adjusting to him and adapt. But he's not there yet. He's not even close. But I think he has the ability to get there. It's his intelligence that leads me to believe this. However, even when he was playing at or above an average NFL QB level sometime between weeks 4-7, we still had trouble running the ball. And that tells me that the OL, more specifically, RG, LG, RT, and FB need to do a better job. At least help put the rookie in better situations. A 2nd and 6 rather than a constant 2nd and 9 or 12.
Well, we know of several QB's who've played well with a great supporting cast, then played horribly without one. Hell, the Dolphins even traded 2nd Round picks for a couple of them in AJ Feeley and Daunte Culpepper. There are quite a few examples. Matt Cassel? Kevin Kolb? So, if there are QB's who've played well in a certain system with superior talent, why can't the opposite be true? Why can't it be that the talent (or lack thereof) is hindering a QB, in this case Tannehill's, production and development?
I think it's a pretty damn good argument that the qb changes team dynamics moreso than a surrounding cast,when you can take a 1 and 15 roster, change the Qb, and all of a sudden your 11 and 5 with a division title.. My Tannehill concern is that he looks lethargic as hell in the pocket when the kid has e athleticism to play receiver at a big time college program. The instincts are not firing at this point, it's all arm..it's driving me freakin nuts.
-Matt Cassel's best season was in KC, not his season in NE. -Daunte Culpepper had ups and downs throughout his career, but they weren't correlated with the talent on his team. He looked plenty bad at times in Minnesota when he had Randy Moss. -AJ Feeley had a 75 passer rating in the season before coming to Miami. -Kevin Kolb has been the same in Arizona - maybe even better - than he was in Philadelphia.
Tom Brady went from game manager clutch performer to one of the best seasons ever. You saw how woefully inadequate his receivers were, in the game against Indianapolis, when he was throwing to Reche Caldwell. His #1 receiver.
