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Miguel Cabrera wins Triple Crown, but is he the MVP?

Discussion in 'Other Sports Forum' started by Boik14, Oct 4, 2012.

  1. DonShula84

    DonShula84 Moderator Luxury Box

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    Trout was clearly the best player in baseball, and clearly meant the most to his team. Angels were terrible when the season started, and that changed the moment Trout came up. Tigers making the playoffs from a weaker division doesn't impress me enough for that to make up for what Trut did.

    Miggy is a great hitter. Baseball is more than just hitting, and Trout showed that.

    What Miggy did hasn't been done in 45yrs, what Trout did (and at his age) has never been done.

    Triple Crown is cool, but it never guaranteed someone the MVP in the past, and it shouldn't now. Does he deserve the MVP because Hamilton didn't hit 1 or 2 more HR? At 44 HR hes automatically the MVP, but 42 and suddenly not?
     
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  2. LiferYank

    LiferYank New Member

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    I thought only an epic collapse by Trout could have not had him getting the MVP. I didnt see Miggy getting the HR's needed. Josh fell off the planet for awhile there.

    While Trout had an epic rookie year i think the voters will go out of Miggy for getting the TC and out of "respect"
     
  3. LiferYank

    LiferYank New Member

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    I agree but i dont think the old school voters are going to see it that way. The TC is the TC .. It is going to be damn close though.

    Who would have thought the Angels could have signed Pujols and he would be the 2nd best player on that team... Its amazing to bad their starters really stunk outside of Weaver.
     
  4. LiferYank

    LiferYank New Member

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    If stats didnt matter to fans how can you explain how popular fantasy leagues are? They are stat driven.....
     
  5. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    I said in the other thread it will be quite interesting to see the breakdown for who votes for Triple Crown and who votes for WAR in essence. The old school vs new school. Will be interesting split.
     
  6. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Just thought I'd bump up this thread as the MVP voting is tonight. Either way it's going to be a fun debate with whoever wins.

    I personally think Mike Trout should win simply because I think he had the better season over Cabrera not only with the bat but also with his defense and base running. I do not think simply because Miguel Cabrera won the Triple Crown he should be given the award. Yes it's a nice footnote on his season but it's not the be all end all in the discussion.
     
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  7. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Agreed. Theres a handful of important notes imo that have to be taken in to consideration:

    1. Trout's WAR is one of the single best WAR seasons in the last 50 years. Top 10 actually. Cabrera's WAR season is very good but not nearly on the same level.
    2. Trout was 27.6% of his teams total WAR; Cabrera's was 33%.
    3. The idea that Cabrera should get the award based on his team making the playoffs is idiotic when you consider the Angels had more wins, in a harder division, despite MASSIVE underachievement by their staff aside from Weaver. The Angels were 6-14 in April before Trouts call up and 83-59 the rest of the way
    4. The Triple Crown is some made up sportswriter award. It does not automatically grant you passing "Go", do not collect $200, do not automatically collect your MVP. Raw stats arent to be ignored; on the contrary, I like them. But Trout did have a more complete season. What automatically qualifies BA/RBI/HR as the Triple Crown? What makes RBI more important then Runs? Nothing. Actually Runs are far more important since a player can score only 1x per at bat but will frequently get opportunities to drive in more then 1 run in an AB.
    5. Regardless of this, Cabrera will win because half of the writers dont even know what WAR is.
    EDIT: 6. Cabrera won in OPS 999 to 963. Trout stole 49 bases. Those are basically doubles. So Trout basically wins in OPS as well since the whole idea of slugging is to advance as far as one can before the next batter concludes his at bat.
    The saddest thing was last night on BSPN they had a roundtable discussion about the award with 7 writers. Gammons and 2 others thought Trout should win based on some of things I cited. Billy Ripken, Harold Reynolds and two others basically laughed at the idea of WAR and sabermetrics and said it should be Cabrera simply because of the triple crown.
     
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  8. Samphin

    Samphin Κακό σκυλί ψόφο δεν έχει

    I go for Cabrera on this. Beyond simply being the Triple Crown inner, is team DID become the AL East Champs. I realize that it is a regular season award, but Miggy taking his team to the playoffs and Trout not, should count for something.
     
  9. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Well yeah all of this too.
     
  10. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He didn't, though. Getting to the playoffs is a team effort.
     
  11. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Yessir.
     
  12. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    The Tigers went 88 and 74. The Angels went 89 and 73. Should we give extra credit to Cabrera for being fortunate to playing in one of the weakest divisions in baseball while punishing Trout because he played in a tougher division (where 2 teams that won over 93 games ended up making the playoffs)? Sorry that argument is silly, win/loss records and whether or not teams make the playoffs is more of a function of the team aspect of baseball. The MVP award is about a single player, even says so in the title of the award.
     
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  13. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Congrats to Buster Posey. Hurts to say he was almost a Marlin. Just one pick away.
     
  14. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    Even though the Angels won more games?

    What about the fact that Mike Trout went 81-58 while on the Angels, good for a .587 winning percentage, while Cabrera went 87-74, good for a .540 winning percentage.

    Seems unfair to award Cabrera the MVP, on the grounds of the AL Central being hot dog****
     
  15. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    He never would have been a Marlin.
     
  16. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Why not?
     
  17. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Cabrera won. Boo. In a landslide.
     
  18. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    Never would have paid his signing bonus. Still would have taken Skip.
     
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  19. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    HA. TAKE THAT SPREADSHEET NERDS! YAY RBIs.
     
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  20. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Oh. Yea, this happened when I was like 13, haha. I wasn't familiar with that.
     
  21. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    That was always a given, unfortunately.
     
  22. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    God damn Padre's of the world!
     
  23. Samphin

    Samphin Κακό σκυλί ψόφο δεν έχει

    The Angels finished third in their division. Yes they won more games, but it clearly wasn't enough. And I know people will make the argument that Trout was better defensively (and he was) but les be honest, the MVP is about 98% about hitting. Andwhen it comes to offensive stats (at least ones the vast majority of the voting media still look at), Cabrera tops all of them.

    Yes it is a earthing to get to the playoffs/World Series, but Detroit doesn't sniff the playoffs without Miggy's year. Sorry, it all factors in.

    Trout will win his fair share of awards in his career, but Cabrera should be the 2012 AL MVP.
     
  24. Samphin

    Samphin Κακό σκυλί ψόφο δεν έχει

    Annnnnd, Miggy wins.

    Told ya.
     
  25. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Bottom line, Trout is better than Miguel Cabrera. That makes him MVP. He was more valuable then Miguel Cabrera. He was the best player in baseball last season.

    In my mind, he's the MVP.
     
  26. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    This is faulty logic

    I always knew Cabs was winning. Too many Padres have votes.
     
  27. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    And if the Tigers were in the Angels division they would have finished 4th in that division, behind the Angels. Still don't understand what record has to do with anything or if the team made the playoffs or not. It's an individual award.

    So if Cabrera wasn't on a playoff team he shouldn't be the MVP? If roles were reversed or both player's teams didn't make it to the playoffs who should win?
     
  28. Samphin

    Samphin Κακό σκυλί ψόφο δεν έχει

    And in my mind, the Dolphins are 15x Super Bowl Champs. It doesn't make it true. Miggy was the most valuable player last year, which is what this award is named after. The guy accomplished something that hasn't been done in my lifetime and many others on this board. Led the league in homers, runs batted in (really the only stat that matters to winning games) and average.,he literally did it all at the plate.

    And his team was the best in the AL. Whatever you want to think is fine, but the fact remains that Miggy earned and deserved it.
     
  29. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    More faulty logic. There have been past Triple Crown winners that didn't win MVP awards. Again if Miguel Cabrera had 2 less home runs and didn't win the Triple Crown does that mean he's undeserving then? The Triple Crown argument is weak too.

    And Cabrera's team was the 7th best team in the AL this year.
     
  30. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yea, he won. But the real MVP is Trout. He wasn't more valuable than Trout.

    It would be so funny had he hit 42 homeruns rather than 44. What a stupid reason to give him MVP. If he's not more valuable than another player, how does he deserve MVP over him? He doesn't.
     
  31. Samphin

    Samphin Κακό σκυλί ψόφο δεν έχει

    If Trout's team had made the playoffs, he would be considered more, yes. The school of thought is simply this (how valueable is he if he didn't lead his team to the playoffs?).

    That along with winning the Triple Crown is simply too much to overcome.

    If Miggy's team was in last place, the I think you can make an argument that the TC doesn't mean as much since the team really didn't benefit from it too much. But the fact that the team won and made the playoffs, proves that what he did, made a difference.
     
  32. PhinsRDbest

    PhinsRDbest Transform and Transcend

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    the next dimension
    I will always still wish this guy was in fishstripes
     
  33. Samphin

    Samphin Κακό σκυλί ψόφο δεν έχει

    And I argue that he is. And that is y they play the games, right? He hit 44, not 42. The what if scenario doesn't hold merit at all. They all played the same amount of games (the teams, I mean) and Miggy hit more than anyone else. To start attacking his stats and erasing what he did just isn't right.

    It a like saying if Trout his for 20 points less than he did, the he wouldn't even be in the discussion. It's nonsense. Miggy hit better than everyone else and got his team to the World Series as well as a divisional title. Those are the facts.

    It is the main reason why Braun beat out Kemp last year despite Kemp clearly being the better (and clean) player. Braun got his team to the playoffs.
     
  34. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    How valuable is Cabrera that he was on the 7th best team in the AL then? Again he was fortunate to play in the AL Central, if he was in the AL East or West his team would have been in 4th place in both divisions.

    Sorry the playoff argument is beyond dumb to make. This is an individual award not a team award and I think Justin Verlander had more to do with the Tigers making the playoffs (he even had a higher WAR) than Miguel Cabrera. Plus it's not like Cabrera didn't have other guys in the line up to help him out, he had Prince Fielder and Austin Jackson who both were pretty good this year too.
     
  35. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He didn't get his team to the playoffs. The Tigers got the Tigers to the playoffs. That's not a strong argument.

    I don't think we'll agree here, so agree to disagree.
     
  36. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Add in the fact that Cabrera plays extra games vs the Royals, Twins and Indians (all terrible staffs) while Trout had extra games vs the Rangers, Mariners and A's. The A's and Ranger staffs are pretty solid 1-5 while the Mariners have 2/5ths of a good staff and the rest no worse then the Indians/KC/Minny.

    On what basis did Cabrera figure to be better? Runs? OPS? WAR? The only stats Cabrera actually wins are raw number stats that have shown to have less worth then advanced stats.
     
  37. Samphin

    Samphin Κακό σκυλί ψόφο δεν έχει

    So now we are knocking Cabrera down for playing against the people he was forced to play against? Stop it. And WAR is a good stat, but not one hat baseball writers really look at yet. And Cabrera won in a landslide. Trout wasn't even close.

    And anyone who says that Miggy didn't lead the team to the playoffs is simply not being honest . Yes he had teammates, yes some of his teammates were really, really good, but Miggy led them. And did so while accomplishing things that haven't happened in a half decade. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Some of you think Trout should be MVP and The rest of us happen to be right. :)
     
  38. Samphin

    Samphin Κακό σκυλί ψόφο δεν έχει

    The truth, of course, is somewhere in between. The cool thing to do is disregard the traditional stats and find and invent others to fit your argument. I get that. And some of the newer stats and measurables have merit, but to disregard homers, batting average and runs batted in as something other than significant and important is wrong.

    Miggy won and he deserved to win. And the majority of baseball agrees.
     
  39. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    The problem is average and RBI's are poor measures of worth. It's like saying Alex Smith was an awesome QB last year and deserved the MVP because of how many wins he had, because you look at other stats and realize that there were other factors and measurables available to us that show that while he was good, it wasn't all him.

    Same with RBI's. They're a product of driving guys in. How does one drive someone in? Well, for starters, he needs guys on base. By this logic, we can pretty much discount anyone who plays for Seattle from winning the Triple Crown, since they traditionally have one of the worst OBP's in the league. Ditto for the Astros. So, you have virtually 17 guys eliminated from this "prestigious" award based SOLELY on the fact their teams suck offensively.

    Is that fair? Maybe, I don't know. But it certainly casts a shadow over the mystique of the award some, no? Should Miggy get the MVP because he led the league in a stat that he only achieved because....of the players on his team? That seems a little backwards, no?

    So now ask yourself, if Miggy played on the Mariners, is he still the MVP?
     
  40. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Why not knock Cabrera down for playing against people he was forced to play against? You're doing the exact same thing with Trout. As one of your main reasons why Cabrera should be the MVP is because his team made the playoffs. Yet again fail to see that the Angels actually had the better record while playing against tougher competition. If the Tigers and Angels been in the same divison you wouldn't have an argument.

    And yes it's completely silly to say Cabrera didn't lead the team to the playoffs, the Detroit Tigers made the playoffs NOT Miguel Cabrera. He had to have help from his teammates to get there. Without Justin Verlander do the Tigers make the playoffs? If the answer is no then how could Cabrera carry the team into the playoffs if without Verlander the Tigers wouldn't have made it. And in fact someone can absolutely make the case that Cabrera HURT his team by his awful defense and on the base paths. Defense and base running should absolutely matter in this discussion.

    We're disregarding traditional stats because baseball, like the world, has evolved. We have found better stats to help us judge/measure players. Just like how we now have wireless internet instead of dial up.

    The problem with using batting average and RBI and that there are better stats out there to determine value. OBP is a much better since it measures the percentage of times a player reaches base safely, aka the percentage he doesn't make an out. And RBI is a terrible stat to use because it's dependent on runners getting on base in front of the hitter. Of course Cabrera is going to get more RBI since he bats in the 3rd or 4th spot while Trout leads off and has the weaker hitters in front of him. Again RBI is the function of the "team" which again just shows you the argument of "Cabrera carried his team to the playoffs" is invalid and wrong. If his teammates didn't get on base how could he drive them in?

    If you want to debate Cabrera is the MVP great, let's have a real debate but to do that you or anyone pro Cabrera needs to give us something better than the playoff and Triple Crown argument.
     
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