Hartline's Zona receptions. Follow the White Guy. (images of every catch)

I think we're the target of a sinister plot. Everyone knows we can run the ball and that's our best chance to be successful and that our WRs suck, these guys, they're just ****ing with us...

 

You're not putting it into perspective. If the others were overreacting in a positive way, then you are overreacting in a negative way.

 

On this one I'm going to disagree with you. Hartline was well covered on this play. I think you assume too much when you say that Hartline was open with back shoulder leverage to where if the throw is on the back shoulder it's a touchdown. I'm in the midst of my own All 22 breakdown of the whole game and I've watched this one quite a bit. Peterson gets his head around early and spots the ball in the air very early. The separation you're highlighting in that particular still frame is due entirely to Peterson's tracking of the ball in the air. He had clearly seen the football and accelerated his pace vertically it to try and intercept it in the air. Hartline was playing the receiver more than the football trying to get the back shoulder leverage you mention.

I agree it was a bad throw by Tannehill (albeit a good read), however you said that if the throw was better it's probably a touchdown and based on what I've seen from the way Peterson was moving and tracking the football on the play, I really don't think so. I think he was comfortable, not at all pressed, and he had this play.

I do agree with you on the comeback on Peterson. That was just a superb job by Brian Hartline. As you say, Tannehill even hesitated a beat too long on the play, Hartline had just done a really good job creating the separation. But to the point Todd is trying to make, Adrian Wilson had deep half responsibility on the play, yet clearly had zero interest in helping Peterson defend Hartline. The lack of respect ended up misplaced, as the ball was completed. In fact, that was a theme of the whole game. Lack of respect for Hartline ended up being very inadvisable, as he killed them the whole game...but there was a noted lack of respect nonetheless, IMO.

 

LOL.

+1 for calling him Todd.

 

Now I'm overreacting? I haven't even stated a case one way or the other.

He came through when they took our run game away from us. What more do you want?

 

I don't think the turnovers were connected. Well, one was...the one where Hartline tripped on the corner's foot and fell on his break.

 

so and because it was blown coverage it doesn't count ? blown coverage...you know the offense called a play that confused the defense.....blown coverage you know ?

i cant believe why everything we did has to be put under a microscope, just don't give this team any credit....anything we did was because of the other team sucked at defending it....UNREAL !!!

 

Because you've gone to a really huge length to tell us something we already know.......but in doing so your treating Hartline like he's a scrub who shouldn't even be the #3 or #4 WR. You've given him a complete lack of respect. You've invented this thing like were all treating Hartline like he's a top 5 WR which we aren't. People are just happy about his performance which was a darn good one. Your actually underestimating him much more so then anyone around here overestimating him...and that's why your getting this reaction.

Edit: FYI even without his big game based on the 3 prior games Hartline was on pace for 1077 yards.

 

Threw 41 times in the fourth quarter?

Only one game was Miami's ground game effective enough to score points.

 

That question does not cover the whole picture though. Of course one would hope to have more scores than one per 250 yards. But, as was mentioned, on the Lane 1 yd run, Hartline actually contributed as much or more to that score than Lane, by the yards gained on the drive and especially the catch and run that took the ball to the 1 yd line on the prior play. Had he made the catch and did like the old Hartline would often do in past seasons and just get on the ground right away, it results in a FG attempt. Perhaps this is largely due to RT putting the pass in a better place for a rac opportunity than Henne or Moore did.

2 TDs and 2 FGs = 4 scores, so 4 scoring drives. Even a 1 play 80 yard drive is still a scoring drive.

 

Thank you Mr Obvious. Of course the team is going to break down every play. Even I know that. Philbin himself said right off the bat when he spoke to the media after the game that you can't expect to win much when you are minus in turnovers. Words to that effect anyway.

When it is a -2 it lessens the odds even more than a -1. If I were to hazard a guess, I'd guess having a negative TO ratio on the road is even more a recipe for losing than it is at home.

As for being prepared for what AZ did to us, I'm pretty sure wasn't a surprise, since they didn't do much differently in their 3 previous games. It wasn't some grand deviation they came up with just for Miami as opposed to what they used against Seattle, New England and Philly.

 

We scored the most points against their defense so far this season. Seattle:16, Pats: 18, Philly: 6.
From week 9 on last season, the most points the Cards allowed were 23 points, on two occasions. They were 7-2 in that stretch, losing to 2 playoff teams, and with the 4 wins this season are now 11-2 over their last 13 games. We handled their D about as well as anyone in that stretch.
It's been since Nov 7, 2010 that they allowed more than 431 yards passing in a game.

 

And you're blaming all that on Hartline, rather than a rookie QB?

Do you think Arizona chose to take away Bush because Hartline isn't adequate, or because we have a rookie throwing the ball?

 

I prefer "Captain" Obvious .

I agree with you on the turnovers, which is why I'm not excited about The Hitman, Tanne, and their franchise record stat lines. We have a rookie QB, a young and inexperienced right side of the OL, a dearth of talent at receiver, RBs who struggle in protection, etc. We should not be passing the ball 46 times in a game, especially a game we're in control of throughout.

Our best bet is to establish the run and stick with it, passing when we want to, not b/c the defense is forcing us to. That didn't happen last week and it bit us in the ***. To be fair, it's not all on the WRs, the blitz pickups were shaky all game long. AZ wasn't sending more guys than we could block, but they were confusing our protections and getting free runners to the QB. The Tanne fumble and the OT INT were both caused by free runners on plays where we had enough blockers to pick all of the blitzers. Tanne was looking to hit The Hitman on a fade vs bump and run with 0 safety help but he gets blindsided, the ball flutters and it's picked off. Game over. On the fumble, I'd like to think that either Pouncey or Incognito should pick up the A-gap shooter, it's an incredibly difficult block for a FB to make in that spot, especially with a guy as quick as Washington. Overall we had 4 TO's on about 50 called pass plays, 5 if you count Wilson's overturned pick. That's 8-10% TOs on pass plays. I don't care how many yards you put up thru the air, if you're turning it over every 10 snaps then you're failing.

Moving forward, we need to do a better job of picking up the blitz. The good news is that when we know who to block our guys do a good job for the most part (lookin at u JMart). We just need to do a better job vs the exotic stuff. More screens, more blitz beaters, yhat's on the coaching staff. A couple guys who can take a quick pass, break a tackle and run for 40 yards would solve all of this sh^t real quick. That's on the GM.

 

Both, and more. In addition to QB and WR, our OL struggles with protection and our backs seem to have a vendetta vs their QB on some plays.

 

Well at least the needle is moving considering in the other thread you said that the WR group as a whole needs upgrading (agreed)...including Hartline (not agreed). At least your acknowledging he can be a decent #2 ;p

 

Which also makes a very important point....how important quality receivers are!!!! Creating the cushion while having to play defender sometimes can save Tanne's butt.

 

wow this quite the biased thread for some reason... WRs get their yards however they get them, sometimes off coverage, sometimes press coverage, sometimes busted coverage, etc...

AJ Green had a 70 something yarder on a trick play pass from another WR, does he not get any credit? Why are people looking to discount Hartline's day? even take away the 80 yard TD on "busted coverage" and he had over 170... just enjoy it people, jesus

 

Anyone figure out why almost every one of the plays highlighted is against zone coverage???

 

This isn't putting anything into perspective. This is the opposite of perspective. One way to put this into perspective would be to do this for every single receiver. Unfortunately thats likely too cumbersome and subjective of a task to provide an accurate perspective.

Or you could take advantage of the primary benefit of statistics - putting things into perspective.

 

Since run attempts tend to be tied to whether you're winning the game by a good margin or not, 47 passes to 31 runs in a tight contest...I dunno, not something I'm going to complain TOO much about.

The point I would make about Hartline in this game is just that the safeties clearly didn't expect him to be able to do what he did, the corners didn't expect him to be able to do what he did, and they all paid for that. You catch for 250 yards and a TD then you did things pretty well.

If you want to be a real #1 type of receiver then I think you have to be able to do what he did despite the corners and safeties eye balling you. We haven't seen that yet. There's going to be games like the Jets and Texans games where he's only relevant on like one play in the game, and then there are going to be games like the Raiders and Cardinals games where the defense seriously underestimates him and he goes off on them. But the key in that is the quarterback who can throw some awful pretty looking passes and make great decisions all game long.

 

I don't think that signifies respect because the corners bit aggressively on underneath fakes from that cushion. Case in point the 57 yard play of his off the double move. The corner, believe it was William Gay, played off him but it had nothing to do with respecting Brian Hartline's deep capabilities because he was sitting on the potential short route and bit very hard when Hartline faked the out. That was how Hartline got so wide open vertically.

To William Gay's credit, he was obviously at least a little bit wrong to not respect Hartline's deep capabilities on the play, but not all the way wrong. Hartline caught the ball in stride and with most receivers that's a 64 yard touchdown but with Brian Hartline he was caught from behind 7 yards shy of the end zone. It's one of the plays I highlighted as ones where even though Hartline is good, he serially refuses to show the kind of explosiveness that finishes plays off with a score. We very nearly had to settle for a FG on that drive after Tannehill was sacked on a roll-out play (poor block by Jeron Mastrud). But then you had the curious decision by Jamell Fleming to loaf around as the Dolphins ran a simple curl/flat concept and Tannehill completed an easy one under the umbrella for a first down at the 1 yard. That would be 1 yard shy of the end zone by the way, where other more explosive and solidly built receivers would probably not have been stopped shy of it.

That's OK, Jorvorski Lane gladly picked up Brian Hartline's money on the next play. One reason I like Mike Tomlin as a coach is he's willing to be brutally honest with a player. One time I saw him mic'd up and a similar thing happened where a receiver showed no strength and couldn't punch that extra yard. As he came off the field Tomlin pulled him aside and said hey, you stand here right next to me and we're going to watch Rashard Mendenhall pick up your money. And he did, he made the receiver stand there and watch the RB punch in the 1 yard score.

 

To me, this is why you put Anthony Armstrong into games, he can break Cover 2 and defenses know this.

That opens up the underneath stuff for Bline/Bess

 

It absolutely shows respect for his ability to get off the LOS.

Either way, I'm not sure its necessarily a valid point. I haven't watched the game enough to say how much he get jammed. The statement I made was just based off the examples here. It wasn't conclusive, unfortunately.

Sure, but whats important in this context is accurately quantifying how valuable Hartline's contributions were to Lane's TD.

 

I think it'll be fine if he plays an average game under those conditions, as long as the offense can make the opposing team pay with the running game.

What would be a problem is if we had such little talent at WR that 1) nobody had to focus on it at all, which would stifle the running game, or 2) when teams did focus on it, it was shut down completely. I don't think either of those is going on here.

If Hartline continues to be the deep threat he's been so far this year, I'm interested to see how things take shape when Jabar Gaffney is able to step into the possession role, with Bess's moving to the slot in 3 WR sets. I think that will further dissuade teams from selling out against the run, since Gaffney is the type who can get open and catch the ball reliably and move the chains on you all day long, which is what we don't currently have behind Hartline and Bess.

 

Well if it was indeed both, I don't think they believe Hartline is inadequate anymore. Do you?

 

^^this. All this hard work to trivialize what we've got.

 

All I know is there was a time we had Ricky and Ronnie with some halfway decent TE's (Fasano/Martin) and a solid QB (Pennington) and we didn't have a WR go off anywhere near like Hartline did. So I can't buy the excuse that they were loading up on Bush.

 

I thought he was an Eskimo.

 

In the extremist-world, a man who proposes moderation appears the extremist.

 

CK can you say if you're noticing Tannehill consistently delivering balls a hair late?

It's a tendency Simon pointed out per-draft. Now I'm seeing it crop up with many of Ryan's incompletions and some INTs and missed TD opportunities.