For those curious here are the six times I think Tannehill threw a TD to Hartline: #1. Oakland. About a play before Tannehill ran in his bootleg TD. Tannehill faces a surprise 8 man coverage and scrambles right to create a passing lane with Hartline, throws to him on the front pylon, Hartline can't hang onto the football as the corner recovers and gets physical with him. If you want to be a dynamic receiver you make this play. #2. Jets. The forever-debated play where some believe Tannehill missed Bess on the opposite field as he scrambled right. Tannehill scrambles out, creates a passing lane to Hartline as he begins a scramble drill, throws the ball perfectly and Hartline drops it. #3. Jets. Overtime. Hartline gets open on the double move but the next gear just isn't there when it comes to running under the football. You can see it on the replay. Tannehill throws really an excellent pass considering its 46 yards thru the air with low trajectory to make sure the speedy Cromartie can't recover on the play (he is faster than Hartline, after all), but because he had no next gear Hartline has to dive on what should have been a long, game-winning touchdown. #4. Cardinals. A little earlier in the game Tannehill throws a deep one to Hartline in stride and he had open space in front of him but he gets caught from behind and limited to just a big gain. #5. Cardinals. Might have even been on this same drive, just before Jorvorskie Lane's touchdown. Tannehill throws the ball to Hartline ove the middle and the guy is one yard shy of the end zone but lacks the strength and explosiveness to lunge for that extra yard. A guy like Hakeem Nicks, that is a touchdown. #6. Cardinals. The 80 yard touchdown. This time Hartline made good, barely, almost caught from behind on the play. There might even be more of these. I'm just saying of the guy wants to be a dynamic player, i.e. a starter, he needs to be able to make good on this kind of stuff. Hartline's day was great but I felt it was more a subset of Tannehill's great day, to be honest.
I've seen what Cruz can do with the ball in his hand... or in his general vicinity for that matter, and it's stuff that Bess & Hartline couldn't dream of. Defenses don't focus on double teaming him b/c of Eli; they're two separate entities, so please don't disrespect Cruz's ability just b/c he wasn't a high draft pick b/c if the draft were redone tomorrow he'd be a first rounder.
To be fair, if defenses showed Hartline and Bess the same respect they show Julio Jones & Roddy White, Maclin & Jackson, or Cruz & Nicks, the production we see would likely be significantly different.
I have ZERO issues with Harty and Bess as our starters, it's the dreck standing in line behind them that is the issue. Our play calling at certain times on offense and defense is beginning to concern me. Sherman can go from genius to Wannstedt in the blink of an eye.
By the way, Brian Hartline leads the league in receiving. Say what you will, but that's impressive. Especially since he missed all of camp and preseason.
I'm saying he's a playmaker and would still make plays, just as he did verse the Jets when he caught only 3 passes but one of them went for 99 yards and a touchdown ALL BECAUSE OF CRUZ, not Eli. Stop trying to make it seem like the QB has total control of what the receiver does once the ball leaves his hand.
Let's reverse this, shall we. Tannehill had an outstanding day and threw for 431 yards. How many TDs resulted from that great QB play? That's what I thought.
The guy is tearing it up. Depth is such an issue though. We need two more legitimate NFL receivers on this roster, right now.
It is. Absolutely no one is denying both him and Bess are good at what they do. And what they do is move the chains between the 20s and be solid route runners and pass catchers in traffic. However, they both have limitations, and if you cannot get complete WRs that can do what Bess and Heartline do, and also what they cannot do, then you at least have to find other WRs that compliment both of their skills with something different. Or TEs for that matter.
One more thing that isn't being talked about that really pissed me off. The missed pass interference call against Bess inside the 5 before Carpenter missed the kick. Sean Smith got called for one earlier int he game that wasn't nearly as bad as that one. Changed the momentum of the game. Bring back the replacement refs.
That's definitely impressive. Now we just need someone who can make plays with the ball in his hands and score in the redzone so that all those yards don't go for nothing. Hartline is a GREAT possession receiver, but we still need to put points on the board.
And, as the saying goes, if your aunt had balls, she'd be your uncle. What's the point of your statement, besides some bizarre attempt at an insinuation? If Marshall were racking up the same volume stats as Hartline, and our scoring situation was still the same, I would still have the same response. Make all those yards mean something by scoring. Don't just rack up yards for the sake of racking up yards. It's really curious to me how you seem to think that every player on this team is at least good enough. No, most receivers in the league aren't Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald types who do everything at an elite or near-elite level. They don't have to be. They just have to be appreciable improvements over what's currently on the roster. There are many WRs out there who are appreciably better at something than both Hartline and Bess while being just as good, or at least not appreciably worse, at almost everything else. Dwayne Bowe is a good example, which is why his name is batted around constantly here (that, and he's a free agent after this season).
So tell me, is the following TD on Eli Manning..... or Victor Cruz? [video=youtube;gCP83KkcQ-A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCP83KkcQ-A[/video] I'm so tired of this crap. Please stop trivializing the WR position as if they do nothing but catch perfect throws by the QB and with all of them possessing the same ability to both catch the ball in traffic and make plays after the catch.
Weren't you complaining bc we got rid of Marshall and couldn't match his production? Well.. lol @ racking up yards for the sake of racking up yards. That whole trying to win thing, ya know?
Their production was fine, the problem was behind those two we had nothing at all. I'd much rather see Matthews or Armstrong play then Bad Luck Legedu. I do have to chuckle that Hartline set a receiving record, and some are sour graping it..that is rather funny really.
How about this TD? Was it Victor Cruz or Eli Manning? [video=youtube;2CnlLoOCC3o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CnlLoOCC3o[/video] I can do this all night.... and I'll probably keep doing it.
How about this one that killed Miami? Manning or Cruz? [video=youtube;0X4sbE5NPaU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X4sbE5NPaU[/video]
or this 99 yarder, did Eli make the move and run it 90+ yards after the catch... or was it Cruz? [video=youtube;Ek5Zyzn3Avw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ek5Zyzn3Avw[/video] Should I keep going, KB?
I definitely did complain that we got rid of Brandon Marshall, not just because we got rid of him but because we lost value on the trade in the process. What does that have to do with Hartline or Bess? Both can be improved upon. Hartline did not suddenly morph into a top player at his position, though he's certainly someone we should keep going forward. Years of watching Dolphins games should tell you that volume stats are meaningless. You can rack up 400+ yards of offense, outgaining the opponent in the process, and lose quite handily. That happens every week. In fact, you just watched a game where it happened: the Dolphins had 480 total yards of offense, while the Cardinals had 297. So, yeah, when someone says "X receiver/rusher/quarterback/team had Y number of yards", it doesn't convey any meaning. There's nothing important associated with that information. Outside of fantasy football, anyway.
.... and this 74 yard TD verse Dallas? Was this Eli or Cruz? [video=youtube;uAwjie7GdkI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAwjie7GdkI[/video]
Was it our fault he killed his value with downgraded play and stupid incidents? How often do teams get better value than what they originally paid for when trading a player? Bess and Hartline replaced the production that you and others were claiming we would lose w/Marshall gone. Not at all. The only time when you could really throw stats out is in complete garbage time.
It was mostly Eli Manning that recognized that the coverage gave Cruz the opportunity to make the play, and the throw that put Cruz into position to make the play. A wide receiver is absolutely nothing without the quarterback. I've already given the links to cold hard football facts that detail the limited impact even the greatest wide receivers make as a whole. Still it gets ignored, because there are those of you that see the flashy plays and think that it has more than a minimal impact on the outcome of the game. Wide receivers simply do not make teams better, no matter how much Michael Irvin tries to convince you otherwise.
I think the concept of "respect" as it applies to how players are defended is pretty heavily overrated. Most of those guys aren't seeing many true, designed double-teams, and a lot of the time even really good players are going to be seriously hindered when such a thing does occur. There is a pretty meaningful trade-off there and it's neither a cure-all or a band-aid for a pretty good receiver. A lot of time when teams decided to bracket cover Brandon Marshall in Miami, he wasn't doing much anything.
Oh wait, there's Hakeem Nicks, too. Did Nicks catch this crucial TD vs GB in the playoffs.... or did Eli Manning catch it? [video=youtube;G4Sx_XGe1yY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4Sx_XGe1yY[/video]
Exactly, what separates Cruz is his ability after the catch something Hartline and Bess distinctly lack. Also, Nicks and Barden play across from Cruz much of the time...we dont have anyone with that size. You need height at WR , guys that can go up and make a play on a ball and break tackles. Cruz had 5 plays over 65 yards last year....2nd best ever. Thats because he doesnt go down on first contact and makes guys miss.
Thank you for posting!!!! Everyone should take the time to read what you wrote. These arguments of having a #1 Fitzgerald WR are completely overrated. QB play is the most essential factor in this equation!!!! Look at what Marino did during his career. Please don't say Duper or Clayton were true #1 wrs because they were not elite wrs. They had great stats because of great coaching, great offensive schemes and Dan the Man! Irving Fryer was an excellent wr but he was not elite when he came to Miami. This team will have an explosive offense IF Tannehill can develop into an elite QB and Philbin can coach. Otherwise we're just spinning our wheels with these circular arguments. I'm not saying having a great WR wouldn't be great but having Pro Bowl elite talent at every offensive skill position is not possible with the NFL cap. The days of having a Montana, Rice, Taylor, Craig are over.
Larry Fitzgerald makes Kolb better. Calvin Johnson makes Stafford better. Randy Moss made Culpepper look good. Andre Johnson makes Shaub look better. Green Bay just has a ****ton of WRs and a HoF QB. I think Bob Griese would say Paul Warfield made him better, but he needs to sober up.
Dont give me that crap. It was an EASY quick pass to Cruz... who in turn did ALL THE REST. Stop with this nonsense, please. The WR makes the QB just as much as the receiver makes the QB. As soon as you understand this, the better off you'll be, with all due respect. I've yet to see you address what happened to Peyton Manning in 2010 when he had a terrible stretch of play when half his starters were injured.
Did Nicks throw the ball to himself? Quick. Tell me why Larry Fitzgerald has not made Kevin Kolb into a franchise quarterback?
Yeah. That stretch of play in 2010 by Manning had nothing to do with the cervical radiculopathy going down his throwing arm that zapped most of his arm strength. If the receiver makes the quarterback, then why isn't Kevin Kolb a better quarterback because of Larry Fitzgerald? The only nonsense here is this idea that wide receivers make much of an impact at all. Again, I ask what impact did Brandon Marshall have on the Miami Dolphins? Because this is the exact same thought process that lead to Miami overpaying to get him in the first place.
Thank you. You and I both know it's not rocket science. It doesn't take a football genius to see what kind of special things a guy like Cruz or Nicks can do when the ball is in the air, and then again when it's in their hands. Special players make special plays. Period. Most of if not all of the Cruz/Nicks TDs I listed were game-changers that NY went on to win b/c of. I just can't see how someone can give all the credit to the QB as if every WR is somehow created equal. It boggles my mind.
Larry Fitzgerald is a big part of why the Cardinals have won 11 of their last 13 games despite not having a franchise quarterback.
I think you're about 99% right. A great WR does make a team better but it's blown out of proportion. A great QB can make a mediocre wr look great.
