Dave Hyde's take on Bill Polian's Team Building Plan

2 teams.

This has nothing to do with Ireland's record. His draft record for the past few years blows worse than almost anyone else's, including ireland.

The only saving grace he has is that he didn't make those picks, but his kid did...and even that shows questionable judgment, because if true his kid is awful.

 

But why let actual facts stop people from over inflating his accomplishments in yet another exasperating attempt to vilify Ireland?

 

I didn't say he stopped paying attention. He took a big step back, as in Chris Polian was actually the GM. And this being his son, he tried to let his son spread his wings a bit. I would say he did so to the chagrin of Colts fans but they got Andrew Luck out of the whole deal so they're probably tickled pink about it.

And if Chris Polian comes with Bill Polian, to me that's a deal breaker. I wouldn't even continue the conversation.

 

If we're turning this into a who is going to be the next GM conversation then I think Nick Caserio is pretty much the rock star of the group of candidates. I'm not saying I'm a buyer, but he's the one with the resume.

The attractiveness to me is that he's been part of every level of the Patriots organization, not just the front office but also the coaching staff. He's worked with secret football research guy Ernie Adams up in the booth, he's worked as the WRs Coach, he's run the personnel department, and he's run some pretty great drafts over the last few years. Scott Pioli left in 2009 and I believe Nick Caserio was the primary guy running the drafts from then on. He's picked Pat Chung (2nd), Sebastian Vollmer (2nd), Myron Pryor (6th), Julian Edelman (7th), Devin McCourty (1st), Rob Gronkowski (2nd), Brandon Spikes (2nd), Aaron Hernandez (4th), Zoltan Mesko (5th), Brandon Deaderick (7th), Nate Solder (1st), Ras-I Dowling (2nd), Stevan Ridley (3rd), Marcus Cannon (5th), and now fresh draft picks like Chandler Jones (1st), Dont'a Hightower (1st) and Tavon Wilson (2nd) are already making impacts in the first week of their rookie seasons.

I think that's a hell of a drafting record. I like that he's witnessed first hand what you can do when you're willing to take advantage of fools who are willing to give you a 2nd in a future year for a 3rd this year, or even sometimes a 1st in a future year for a 2nd this year.

 

I'm not sure I'm all about giving Bill Polian credit for Carolina going to the Super Bowl like 6 years after he left. Let's be honest about that.

But I'm all for giving him credit for taking an expansion team and building them up to where they reached the NFC Championship in the team's second year of existence. To me, that's a hell of a feat. Especially when you consider he did it with Dom Capers as his Head Coach. When Jacksonville did the same thing, it was with future multiple Super Bowl winner Tom Coughlin as Head Coach.

 

I didn't mean to imply you said that.

My point was that Bill had to see the horrible job his son was doing. That means he either agreed with his son or didn't care. Either way, those aren't the things I want in a GM.

 

Is Tavon Wilson the rookie who everyone thought was a late rounder and criticized Belly for taking so early?

 

When i first clicked on the thread and read the article i have to admit my first impression was that i can forgive Polian for the Colts bad year and i would welcome him to be our next GM.
Then after reading some posted facts, i have changed my mind. His recent draft record was horrible! And if its true that he took a step back and let his son run the show and didn't step back in to keep his son from ruining the team, I don't want someone that would make that kind of a decision and not realize it was a bad decision and "put the brakes" on that idea.
I believe everyone deserves a 2nd chance, specially after having success in the past and failing in very recent history. But anyone that i would even remotely consider to give a second chance would have to:
1. Clearly explain what went wrong during their failure
2. Take responsibility for their actions
3. Promise to never make the same mistakes again.
4. Show me your plan for the future and why you think that plan is successful.
Even if all that criteria is met, and i buy into your plan, i would have to have no better option to give you that second chance!
With all that being said, I would like to know more than Polian's draft history like:
1. trades
2. UDFA signings
3. FA signings
4. Players he chose to give a new deal to.
5. Players he chose not to resign, and who he tried to replace them with
6. Salary cap situations
7. Coaches he has hired and fired.
8. And regarding his drafts, what were his teams needs? I can forgive a GM for missing on draft picks as long as he tried to address the teams needs.
9. What moves has he made to try to obtain solid depth and/or replacements for players that he knew would not be on the team for long. And were his moves for depth and/or replacement players made while there were unmet needs or were these moves for depth and/or replacements made while there wasn't many needs?
I don't expect anyone to do all this research but i would need all that resesrch before i think whether or not a person would be a good GM for our team.
If anyone is wondering...I might make this statement as a signature to all my posts:
"I am realistically incapable of good research until i get internet service at my house. The only way I can currently get on this forum is through a cheap pre-paid phone that I am on right now. This phone will not tell me what website I am on, there is no address bar unless i go to my home page. And this phone will not allow me to copy and paste. Please don't ask me for a link, or expect me to do any research!! LOL"
I think I might try to figure out how to add that to all my post if that's even possible to do on this phone and on the mobile website.
Any way, I would have to have all that research on any canidate to have a good opinion of who would succeed as a GM of this current team in our current situation. And I would need to know if any canidate had success turning a bad team into a good team or if they inherited a good team and succefully didn't make them worse. Any tie breaker would go to a person that inherited a bad team and made them better. The second best thing would be a track record of not making a team get worse.
Here are the main things i would want from our current GM or future GM:
1. Have at least 3 difference makers from each draft. I prefer that to mean starters, but would even be happy if all 3 "difference makers" were on special teams, as long as all 3 were filled needs at depth and/or future replacements.
2. Realize our needs and try to meet them through the draft AND free agency. Not just one or the other. Specially never neither. I prefer both at the same positions of need if that is possible. But i would be happy if just one or the other is done for each need.
3. Don't get rid of talent unless you have an immediate replacement that is equal or better. Have a very good reason that would greatly benefit us like draft picks and a "now replacement" before even considering saying good bye to current talent. Even if the picks and "now replacement" aren't part of the same deal, have another deal ready before pulling the trigger on a deal that leaves your team with less talent and hope of getting better through a future draft, and no immediate talented replacement.
4. Reward players that deserve it when the salary cap allows you to do so.
5. Find a "diamond in the rough" every now and then through late picks or UDFA.
6. Get "on the same page" with the head coach. I don't care if this need is met by the GM buying into what the Head Coach wants and/or needs or if the GM gets the Head Coach to buy into his plans. To me the only thing that matters is the fact that they are "on the same page" even if I don't agree with the page they are on, or if the plan isn"t working, I would rather have comfort knowing a GM and HC succeed or fail together without hindering one or another.
7. Realize your mistakes, take responsibilty, and attempt to fix mistakes. Every GM will have mistakes but I am more concerned if a GM is capable of realizing it and doing something about it. I prefer one that doesn't try the same thing and expect different results. But i would want a GM that at least tries to fix problems even if he isn't successful at solving a certain problem as long as he keeps trying, but tries different ways.
For the record, none of the lists i have made are in order of importance. And I believe Jeff Ireland has done some things that i like and some things I hate. I am encouraged that he has made some steps in the right direction

 

I mean, I can't be teh only one who doesn't see the luster in a guy who's teams made it to 0 super bowls and lost...0 superbowls...right? Let's try playoffs...

I can't be the only guy who doesn't see the luster in a guy who's teams made it to 1 playoff game...oh...nope, wait we're blaming those first years on Parcells...0 playoff games...right?

I can't be the only guy who doesn't see the luster in a guy who's built teams that have had 0 winning seasons right?

 

I just hope when we replace Ireland we actually go out and get a true up and coming guy whose ready to go. No more retreads, lackeys and guys far past their prime.

 

Pretty simple, easy, and pertinent question I asked before in regards to people supporting the idea of Bill Polian.

Look at this and tell me the last time he had a good draft:

http://www.fftoday.com/nfl/drafttracker.php?o=by_team&TeamID=9001

Bad drafting started long before Polian started getting grand ideas about what is and is not an inheritable trait.

 

For the record, here is my current stance on Polian and Ireland.
I believe Polian was a successful GM with the Bills and Panthers but failed to be a successful GM in his most recent history with the Colts.
Any dispute on whether or not he was Successful with the Colts could be reasonable and successfully argued that his success came as a result of 2 people: Tony Dungy and Peyton Manning. Peyton Manning played in such a way that no longer having Tony Dungy wasn't a big of an issue as it truly was, but there is no doubt That Tony Dungy was A reason for their success and Peyton Manning was a bigger reason for their success. The "proof is in the pudding" of their 2-14 record. I find it hard to believe that one or 2 people can make the difference in a great team and one of the worse teams but that seems to be a proven fact IMO on that team. In Polian's defense, having a "Peyton Manning" makes it hard to realize the rest of your team is that bad, but not impossible to see. The cold hard truth is that was Polian's responsibility to see and know and he failed at it.
What i can't defend on Polian his his horrible drafts and whether or not it was him or his son either way reflects on a mistake that was not corrected which is one trait that i hate in a GM. I don't care if GM's make mistakes, they're expected to as long as they are human. What I strongly care about is a GM's ability to recognize a mistake and whether or not they try to fix it. And if there initial way of trying to fix a mistake consistently doesn't work, are they capable of trying a different way?
That last statement brings me to Jeff Ireland. When I talk about recognizing a mistake and not only trying to fix it, but changing your ways of fixing it if your ways don't work. Here is some examples where i am both mad and happy with Jeff Ireland.
When it comes to recognizing mistakes i am relatively happy with Ireland in most cases not all. Recently, as evidenced in Hard Knocks episodes I like how he didn't force the team to deal with players that he had high hopes for in the last draft, but were clearly mistakes. That is one piece of evidence that makes me happy with the fact that Ireland is capable of realizing mistakes. He obviously realized that every former starting QB since he was here was a mistake because they are either no longer at the team or no longer starting. I think during Ireland's entire time as GM on our team is full of proof that he realizes mistakes, even more so after Parcells took a lesser role and after Parcells left. That leads me to believe that Ireland is his own person and IMO more of a likeable GM when it comes to knowing that he progressively realizes mistakes. Kudo's to him for that but the other part of the equation is what a GM does to fix mistakes and if his ways don't work is that GM willing to try something different.
The first part of the next part of that equation is does he try to fix mistakes or just get rid of his mistakes. I believe in most cases he tries to fix his mistakes which I am happy about (not the results, the fact that he tries). The most important problem of our team was the QB position. That's definitely one that he has tried to fix. One that he has not tried to fix is the WR position. Sure any name can be throwed out to say he has tried to fix the WR position but I mean really try. There's much more proof that he really tried to fix the QB position. He has failed to fix it but really tried through FA, and 2nd round picks and maybe even trades unless that was our last GM. But there is no evidence of really Trying to fix the WR pposition. case and point on some reasons i am happy with Ireland and mad at him. I am happy with him realizing almost all problems, i am happy that he tried hard at the QB position and mad that he didn't really Try to fix the WR position. Even though he didn't solve the QB position I am at least happy that he attempted to. I wish he was more consistent in trying to solve every obvious need as he is consistent with identifying mistakes and problems.
This brings me to the last part of the equation. If his attempts to fix a mistake don't work will he not only keep trying but realize the way he has tried isn't working and requires a different way to try? I have issues with him on this matter until recently. He finally tried a different way to fix his QB mistakes and/or QB problem. I use and/or because some things are problems he inherited and some things are his mistakes that have been realized but not fixed and in some cases not even tried to be fixed. when it comes to his way of trying that hasn't worked i am mad at him for trying the same way and/or taking too long to try a new way to fix a problem. Like he kept trying to fix the QB problem but kept trying the same way and took to long to try something new until he finally used a 1st round pick. I am happy about that but mad that it took so long to try a different and IMO the right way.
In a nutshell I give him an A+ for identifying problems and mistakes throughout his entire time as our GM.
I give him a C for trying to fix problems. (if i broke it down to certain tries to fix certain problems i would give him an A+ in certain situations and an F in others) IMO that relates to a C for trying the same wrong way but atleast trying. I am grading the TRYING not the success or failure of his TRYING.
And last but not least for his entire time here I give him an F for trying something new after realizing the way he was trying didn't work.

 

White space is your friend.

 

Research? What's that?

Along with fist bumps, we should also have something in here that allows members to assign a level of validity to a post, like on a 1 to 10 scale. A one would be something based completely on opinion, whereas a 10 would be something totally supported by objective evidence.

So go ahead and fist bump away when someone shares your opinion or states something you agree with, but realize it's opinion only and not objective.

 

It's highly unlikely that Nick Caserio is actually making those picks, for one.

Secondly, Scott Pioli should for damn sure be scaring you off of trying to take his replacement. If not, there's pretty much that every single underling hired out of the Patriots organization has been a failure.

 

What you'd arrive at IMO if you did a systematic investigation of these "all powerful GM-like figures" is the realization that the presence or absence of a franchise quarterback totally drives the bus on the perceptions of their expertise or the lack thereof.

 

added to my last post, He definitely gets an A+ for one different attempt to fix one problem that hasn't been fixed by his same way that hasn't worked. Of course I am speaking of drafting Tannehill. But overall since that is the only example i can think of where he finally tried something new i have to give him an F on this subject overall. But its encouraging to see a step in the right direction. Now i would be extremely happy with him if he applied something new to all our problems that he has not fixed but has tried. I would be extremely happy if he tried to fix all problems. And i couldn't be more extremely happy than i already am with his ability to recognize problems and mistakes. Some GM's are not capable of recognizing problems like Ireland does. Some GM's don't add the Trying factor like Ireland does in most cases. And some GM's are not capable of trying something new like Ireland finally did by drafting Tannehill. So like I originally said in this thread and others I am not extremely against Ireland and I am not extremely for him either. I am happy and mad at Ireland depending on what subject we are talking about. And i am encouraged by some things he has recently done to take a step in the right direction. But i am also discouraged by recent steps in the wrong direction. Like not addressing some problems and not only that but IMO has created un necessary problems with no immediate fix just a chance to get better in a future draft. If he does less of that, keeps at least identifying problems, more trying to fix every problem he identifies, and more trying something new in a much more timely manner, He would be perfect. LOL But he isn't perfect, no one is.

 

If anything you're trying to overinflate his success by giving him credit for a super bowl appearance 6 years after he left the franchise. REALLY? And to be fair, I don't think anyone is attempting to diminish Polian's success. Certainly not to defend Ireland. You're the one who's making a coorelation between the two when the only one that exists is they're both football GMs. But you just keep making **** up anyway without doing the research so there's no point in trying to illustrate to you where you're wrong.

 

When presented with evidence that Irelands track record for hit and miss are virtually even with most GMs in the league, you ignore it. You consistently blame him for things that are not his job. When pressed to provide examples of his great failures relative to the mean level of success in the NFL you've balked on that too. I've seen you dismiss the fact that Parcells ran those first few drafts when it's convenient and then, as in this post, accept it when it's convenient.

I get that you want to win, and that you're discouraged by the Dolphins performance.

You'll most likely have one of two responses to this. Either you'll tell me you don't care what I have to say, which is not true otherwise you wouldn't have replied to my post in the first place, or you'll call me an Ireland homer with rose tinted glasses etc, which is also not true as I have layed blame at Ireland's feet multiple times.

This whole "anti-ireland, pro-ireland" is silly. It's as though if you're "anti-Ireland" you cant, or wont, even acknowledge that he's done some good things. It has to be 100% negative 100% of the time and that's just ludicrous. It's almost as bad as the republicans vs democrats.

 

That's what i don't understand is the HELD opinions. I understand having a strong opinion about something and making a post about it, but when research is done and facts are stated I don't undertand how anyone can hold and opinion when the research and facts clearly prove an opinion wrong. In my first post in this thread i admitted about an initial strong opinion that Polian would be good for this team, but i also admitted that when presented with the research and facts, i changed my opinion. Is that so hard for anyone and everyone to do? The only reason why someone wouldn't do that is PRIDE! To add to that, which is probably the same thing as pride, is someone that feels they are always right no matter what and a bad and wrong belief that going against what they first thought paints them as a person that is a wishy-washy person that can't make up their mind about anything or everything. Its much more respectable to change your mind if research and facts proves an opinion wrong. Its even more respectable to wiegh all the facts before stating an opinion but I can't fault anyone for that.

 

Because feelings are more powerful than intellect. If you feel you need a scapegoat to blame all this on and to make you feel hopeful about the future (i.e., if the scapegoat is removed, the team will start to do well), those feelings can override any intellectual evidence to the contrary.

 

THIS x ONE MILLION

 

Again, it just amazes me that an ardent Ireland defender such as yourself is knocking another GM for "what have you done for me lately".

The irony.

Also, I never said I wanted Polian. Would I take him over Ireland? LOL HELL YES

 

But yet, you won't answer when the last time Polian had a good draft.

 

What does Scott Pioli have to do with Nick Caserio? Funny how when Pioli left the organization suddenly their drafts take a wild upward turn in effectiveness.

The coaches all come out of there thinking they know everything and are the incarnation of Bill Belichick and then they suddenly find out that they're not. But as for the front office folks, the ones that are actually involved in the Patriots organization, which ones are you speaking about? Thomas Dimitroff? He's been wildly successful in Atlanta. Seriously, what other front office guys have spun out of New England that should scare you?

 

Yup. He played 40+ snaps this weekend and played pretty well. Doesn't mean he's good. But at the very least, it suggests he's not necessarily the horrible bust people predicted.

 

What does the performance of the guy who previously held a position have to do with the next guy who held the position? Who knows! That's such a wild tangent, I don't know how I could have possibly thought of bringing it up!

Scott Pioli has been awful. Thomas Dimitroff has been pretty solid, but once again, we're at the point where the performance of the team has wildly inflated a GM's status. If you're trying to treat him as light years better than Jeff Ireland, you're delusional.

 

So... the performance of the players the GM acquires shouldn't reflect upon him?

Suddenly your defense of Ireland becomes much clearer.

 

Sure it should, but you can't say one GM is bad without showing objectively and systematically why he's significantly worse than any other.

 

This is gonna sound bad but, who gives a ****? His teams were Super Bowl contenders every year. If Jeff Ireland built a team like that, I wouldn't be worried about his drafts. I don't care how a team is built well, as long as it's just that. I wouldn't be crying about poor drafts in New England if I were a Pats fan, either.

 

So much this.

 

I'm not knocking or praising Ireland for the "what have you done for me lately" b/c the "what have you done for me lately" is still in massive limbo with a huge chunk of the team and coaching staff in TBD mode due to their newness and inexperience...... but what I have seen the past few years is at least better than what Polian has done in the recent past. That's not saying a whole heck of a lot, but it's a start.

 

Wait..what?

 

Tom Brady has been to 5 Super Bowls and Peyton Manning to 2 BECAUSE the Colts were built poorly.

 

I don't think that's a fair standard to be held up to, IMO.

 

How is it not?

 

Look, when you have long-term starters at a given position like the Colts have had, you're probably gonna take some chances on luxury picks/areas of need. Not to mention the Colts had a low 1st Round pick for how many years? I'm not saying Polian was a MASTER or the best GM of all-time, but to look at the teams success during his tenure and say they weren't great is silly. What does it say that they didn't have great drafts in recent years and the team was STILL a viable Super Bowl contender?

Wins and losses. That's what you're ultimately judged by in the NFL, for right or wrong. So looking at Polian's record, what can we conclude?

 

You can point to everything from philosophy to win-loss record to percentage of acquired players who remained on the team and contributed at the level expected to... well, I can keep going, but this is already a massive run-on sentence.

Building a run-oriented roster when victory depends on efficient passing is probably not a good way to go about your job as a GM.