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QB Development and Bootleg Band-Aids.

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by His'nBeatYour'n, Sep 12, 2012.

  1. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    Just a food for thought thread.

    Is the lack of bootlegs because QB development is a priority over winning games?

    Batted passes are a known issue for Ryan Tannehill. Sherman surely knew about this before either he and Ryan were Miami Dolphins. The question is, what is the solution?

    The obvious solution on game day would be to call more bootlegs. Get Tannehill away from JJ Watt by having him roll out of the pocket.

    Since athleticism, mobility and throwing on the run are Tannehill's strengths, it is actually surprising that bootlegs weren't a more central part of the overall game plan, regardless of batted balls. Yet Sherman only called 3 bootlegs on Sunday.

    Is Sherman purposely keeping Tannehill from relying on his mobility? Should we be surprised not to see more bootlegs called in response to future batted balls?

    My theory is that Sherman is fully aware of Ryan Tannehill's batted ball issue, but isn't going to put the band-aid solution of bootlegs on a gaping wound. Sherman is content (at least in the early portion of this season) to force Tannehill and the rest of the offense to work through this issue.

    Ryan Tannehill, despite all his ability, poise, confidence, and knowledge of the offense, is still an inexperienced rookie QB. He needs development, so fans should be patient. However, he is also one of 32 starting NFL QBs, and winning is the priority.

    As a fan, are you okay with Sherman possibly sacrificing a drive/points/wins in the name of QB development?
     
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  2. mommabilly

    mommabilly No riders allowed

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    Stop, they were never an issue for Tannehill at ATM. Turner had his college Olineman jump like superman, punch defenders in the stomach like MMA fighters and if that did not work, they held the defenders arms down with invisible rays that paralyzed them. LOL, just kidding. Of course he had this problem in college, its well documented. Hey, I pray the kid does great here, really do but this entire issue of batted balls is entirely on his back, no one elses but his.
     
  3. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    I disagree, I think Tannehill is to blame.
     
  4. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Against Houston the Dolphins ran the ball 19 times and passed it 36 times, despite that they averaged 4.2 yards per rush (which is good) and only 5.4 yards per pass (which is bad).

    I think they're trying to win games.

    As to the question about bootlegs, I think running bootlegs, when your running game is performing so well, is more consistent with developing a QB than with winning games.

    What's not consistent with prioritizing a QB's development over winning games is emptying the backfield and going five wide, which the Dolphins were clearly not reluctant to do.
     
  5. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    :headscratch:
     
  6. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    I think your entire point boils down to "passing the football = trying to win games" And I disagree, because it is the QB they are trying to develop.

    How does running a bootleg, which is a known strength of Tannehill's, develop Tannehill? Developing means working on weaknesses, not hiding behind strengths.
     
  7. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    sarcasm [sahr-kaz-uh m]

    —noun

    1. harsh or bitter derision or irony. 2. a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark: a review full of sarcasms.
     
  8. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Then what would be evidence for you of prioritizing the QB's development over winning?

    Because it would be part of a gameplan that emphasizes using the running game to set up the pass. A bootleg is a play that works much better if your running game is working. It's a play-action pass.

    It sounds like we're probably going to disagree in the end, and that's fine. My take on it is that if your priority is developing a QB, you keep the offense balanced between the run and the pass no matter what the scoreboard says, so that you don't put too much of the game on the QB's shoulders. If your priority is winning, you pass more than you run because the scoreboard says you need to.
     
  9. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    More or less, but do think he should move around a bit more but think I don't want to see some of the stuff they did with Henne done with Tannehill, roll right, half field reads etc.

    This will mean losses and dreadful offense until he learns how to play..:woot:
     
  10. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Pretty much the ratio from the preseason, then again we played from behind in the 2nd half and pretty much had to pass the ball.
     
  11. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    You provided my evidence. Dolphins were running well, yet only 3 bootlegs.

    It seems that you define developing a QB as strictly protecting the QB. I define it as forcing them to address their weaknesses.
     
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  12. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    been asking this question all day..

    I...don't...get....it..

    To constrict a qb to the pocket who has great abilities with the football on the move, in the name of development, just doesn't sounded right...It's almost so obviously dumb, there must of been a reason..

    The kid forgot about a lot of stuff that he's good at in that game, and I don't know why..
     
  13. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    It sounds like I'm talking about mental development, and you're talking about physical development.
     
  14. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    It was his first NFL game. Might have been a little overwhelming.
     
  15. Bpk

    Bpk Premium Member Luxury Box

    I think His'N hit the nail on the head and makes a great point.

    I totally support Sherman and Philbin prioritizing Tannehill making Ryan address his flaws.

    I support it so long as it doesn't become likely to destroy his confidence if he struggles too much.

    Challenge him and support him. Not just one or the other.
     
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  16. CitizenSnips

    CitizenSnips hmm.

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    He's obviously athletic...so not moving him around at all? Sure seems fishy.
     
  17. FinNasty

    FinNasty Alabama don’t want this... Staff Member Club Member

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    I think you should design your offense around what he does best so that both he and the rest of the team can have early success. It's not like you can run a bootleg play every snap anyway so you still have to work on and will develop pocket passing anyway. But in my opinion having success early is very critical for both the rookie's confidence and the team's confidence in the rookie.

    If the proposed scenario is really true, I'll be really disappointed...
     
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  18. gandalfin

    gandalfin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think the Texans defense was guarding against the bootleg. That may be why there was so much success running up the middle. They were willing to give that up because they didn't want Tannehill to hurt them outside the pocket.
     
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  19. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    It's not Sherman's call. If that's what happened, then Sherman is doing what his GM and his head coach tell him to do.
     
  20. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    You get a prize.
     
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  21. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    The Dolphins called some bootlegs in the game but it became apparent that the Texans defensive ends were looking for it. On the one, Ryan had to make a really incredible stop and sidearm throw just to get the ball out and prevent getting pummeled for a huge loss. Lucky for us, Ryan's target was the one receiver on roster (not sure about this particular skill for Brian Hartline) that can adjust on the ball in the air even on quick passes where he only just gets his head turned around.

    I see this bootleg thing becoming sort of a lightning rod for criticism of the way the game was called, but I don't see anything wrong with what they did there. The real problem that gets your goat if you're a coach is that the Texans defensive ends weren't necessarily even "selling out" to prevent those boot legs, they were just hyper aware of them and playing them with fantastic technique. It PROBABLY has something to do with the offense they practice against every day. Just sayin.
     
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  22. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    Development is not just working on weaknesses. It's working on weaknesses but also taking advantage of your strengths. not sure why this is an either-or issue. calling a few bootlegs per game to increase our chance of success and boost Tannehill's confidence can only be a good thing.
     
  23. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Those weren't college players who were batting those balls down. They were NFL starters on a good team. The kid is raw, but he isn't stupid, and he'll be coached. This was his first NFL game. He'll get used to what NFL players can do and adjust accordingly to eliminate problems in his play. To me, that's a big part of what development is.
     
  24. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    Sherman calls the plays on game day. Sherman knows Tannehill, and his shortcomings, better than Ireland or Philbin. That is why I focus on Sherman. QB development is a collective effort, but I don't see Sherman waiting on Ireland and Philbin to direct him on how to develop a QB.
     
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  25. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    How is that? Physical development would be off the field, in the weight room. Not on game day.
     
  26. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    Obviously.

    Development is improving, leaning on strengths gives Tannehill the confidence to keep working on weaknesses, yes. It is not an either-or issue, but leaning on strengths to boost confidence is not the same as leaning on strengths to win games. I simply argue that we're going to sometimes see plays called that service Tannehill's development more than they serve just winning. This is what you get when you start a rookie.
     
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  27. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    Thanks CK. I certainly considered that possibility. I didn't have the time to go back and review those 3 bootlegs, and didn't want to falsely credit the Texans. I recall the one play you describe from the first half, before the batted balls turned the game upside down. When were the other two called? How successful were they?

    I'm defending the lack of bootlegs. However, if Sherman was trying to succeed rather than develop, I'd say a bootleg well defended that Tannehill shows the ability to improvise on is a better call than another a 3 step drop that gets tipped and intercepted twice.
     
  28. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I don't think so. If you're going to run into the problem they ran into on that bootleg where Tannehill just barely got the ball off sidearm (with poor accuracy) to Davone Bess, you walk away from that play knowing A) You just got lucky and B) You should probably not call that play that much.

    Ryan Tannehill's legs are available to him ANY TIME. It's up to HIM to use them. Extend the play. It's something he had a terrible feel for in college and it's still a work in progress, obviously. But he'll sit back there acting like he's a one-dimensional player as if the throwaway or the check down is his only option when the coverage is well aligned. It's not the only option. Think back to that play in the scrimmage when he outran Derrick Shelby to the perimeter and threw a beautiful strike to Fasano in the end zone over a linebacker's head. He can do that and he should do it more often. They need to work on getting him to think of that as part of his process.
     
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  29. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    By "physical development" I mean the development of the way he plays the game physically, e.g., adjusting his velocity, adjusting his release point, looking off safeties, etc., as opposed to mental things such as confidence and leadership.
     
  30. shouright

    shouright Banned

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    Right, but when the play calls for a three-step drop and a quick pass, how much extension of the play is available in terms of what the receivers are doing with their routes? I suspect at this point Tannehill is being coached to get the ball out quickly and hit the open guy on those plays, not to turn what's supposed to be a quick, short pass into something totally different.

    It's analogous to Reggie Bush's dancing around behind the line versus making one cut and heading upfield for whatever gain is there. I suspect at this point in Tannehill's development they don't want him doing a whole lot of dancing around behind the line. They probably want him to pull the trigger on those three-step drop passes and get whatever is there, or throw the ball away if there's nothing.
     
  31. His'nBeatYour'n

    His'nBeatYour'n Glass Ceiling Repairman

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    Makes sense now.
     
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  32. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Another reason to get him on the move in inordinate fashion...not constricted.
     
  33. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think designing a gameplan to develop the qb over trying to win with the Qb strengths is the wrong way to go.

    You get him doing the things that are eventually going to help you win games, from the get.

    Have him on the move to protect passing lanes and his weakness of batted balls.

    It keeps defenders from teeing off and Directing pressure to a spot in the pocket..

    He's really freakin good on the run.

    It's good to keep the defense guessing..

    It can help you win games.

    You develop his whole repertoire from the beginning.
     
  34. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yes, this is my fear, that the athletic Qb Is being coached not to, or simply does not have the instinct yet.
     
  35. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I understand what some are saying, we know Sherman is cognizant of getting Tannehill some confidence early, we've seen him call plays to cater to that confidence in the preseason in hard knocks..

    I just disagree with the method of him keeping him in the pocket to develop.
     
  36. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    From what I've seen, it's never been part of his instincts. And maybe it never will be. But you'd hope it is.
     
  37. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    If something is an "obvious remedy", then its obvious to the defense as well. I don't think bootlegs are going to be very effective, simply because its an obvious remedy here.
     
  38. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    So were looking at a stand-up pocket passer Moreso for the future?.

    I thinke he's a Qb with athleticism but doesn't transition to it very well from the pocket, fair?

    Pissass, I finally get some athleticism in a qb and he doesn't know how to use it..lol.

    I realize he's inexperienced, these things will get better.
     

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