Karlos Dansby, Reggie Bush talk Vontae Davis trade

I don't believe that, Harbaugh is just that good, our hope is that there are different ways to become a great coach..

 

I'm not saying Harbaugh isn't a good coach, but we're talking about here why he did so well year one.

Then again, I don't think team success in football reverts back to some magical, mystical leadership figure who has exceptionally rare powers of motivation. I think it happens from a culture of winning, the primary ingredient of which is leadership among the players.

 

I don't think Sanders ever had to work hard or really ever did, because he was such a rare natural athlete and football player. He used to play baseball all summer and show up to whatever football team he was on, with no training camp and go out the next day and play the best man coverage the game has ever seen. If football was all that important to him, he'd have never been wasting his time playing baseball, because he was only an average baseball player.

 

The council, is for consulting on cuts . it has nothing to do with trades. No NFL team GM or Coach would stand for player interference on trades that is plain businesss

 

I don't know. Maybe he never becomes an All Pro. But, right now, this summer, heading into the 2012 season he was the best corner back we had. The team was better with him on the roster. This season. That's what matters most to me, and I'd bet that is what matters to the veterans on our roster. Screw this perpetual rebuild we seem to go through every year. Being a fan of the Dolphins seems like that movie Groundhog's Day.
Now, Nolan Carroll moves up to #3 corner, and Quinten Lawrence is now our #4 corner. If you think that's ok, and not a noticeable downgrade from Davis as #3 and Carroll as #4, well, we're just wasting time here talking about it.

 

I am sorry but 99.99% of NFL play makers do not go around head butting women, showing up drunk at practices and calling oput their QBs in the press, etc. Bad apples are just that bad apples . Having said that if Miami did not get 2 draft choices for his sorry arse Vontae would still be here

 

I'm sorry, but it doesn't matter who should've got the foul or even if it should've been offsetting.
What matters is that he couldn't contain himself, and it hurt the team.

You ask what Vontae should've done. He should've done nothing and let Smith keep blocking him so that Smith can draw the flag and hurt his team instead...... and if Smith wants to do it again, let him draw another one.

Had he done that, it would've sent the message that Smith's antics won't work b/c Vontae's mentally tougher than that..... but instead, Vontae sent the message that he can be gotten to, that if you push his buttons enough you can make him crack, which could mean the difference between a punt and a game winning TD.

 

As stat3ed in the press the purpose of the council is to try to help a player that is in trouble , wife, abuse, getting drunk, bveing out of shape , under performing, etc IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TRADING PLAYERS

 

Err ... can I just remind you that VD ( Is it venereal disease?) was not cut but traded?

 

That is sheer and total speculation . Publicly all players backed the deal. loosing a locker room is what the stinking Jets went through last year where you had open fighting between your supposed best receiver and the QB

 

That makes a lot of sense, let me ask you this..

Your a coach, you inherit a team where the most talented players on the team lack leadership, are unprofessional, clownish, and lazy,thats about as backwards as it gets right?, your best players have to set the best example, so what do you do if your a new coach, do you try to change those vets to become who you want and need them to be, or do you cut the mothers .? And start having your Gm truly understand what your looking for.

 

With all due respect, NO NFL team coach Owner or GM would stand for a players council interfering with a trade VD , a very appropiate name IMO, was traded not cut. The "council' had no say on that and they were the first ones to admit it. Finally with all this talk of Philbin being a tyrant, may I ask just who are the other head coaches in the NFL that have authorized a players council? Please name them.

 

yeah either way you are giving up on him, or at least to apoint you are saying what is being offerred is worth more.

 

So you're saying, unlike Vontae, he kept himself physically well trained and prepared when not playing football?

Regardless of what Deion did, he didn't underutilize his talent IMO, and he didn't jeopardize SB opportunities.
Deion was also brought onto SB teams that had a strong, established structure where it's safe to bring in a guy like him. That's the point Shou was making about establishing the culture before bringing in the wildcards so to speak. We haven't established that culture here yet to even make the argument that Vontae is ok for it IMO.

I have to ask, Marve, in your opinion has Vontae done anything from last year through this preseason that demonstrates he's any more mature now that he was as a rookie?

If you're a GM or owner and you're forced to make a decision about Vontae b/c you now have a 2nd & 6th rounder staring you in the face, could you [from a managerial standpoint] feel certain that you'd want to re-sign Vontae in 2 years after watching him show up drunk to practice, show up to camp out of shape despite signing Marshall, and then seeing him demoted in preseason?

 

So you think coaches should have enough juice in their repertoire to be able to change players and make them buy in??, they should be allowed to get rid of players they find incorrectable or overvalued?

 

With all due respect, NO NFL team coach Owner or GM would stand for a players council interfering with a trade VD , a very appropiate name IMO, was traded not cut. The "council' had no say on that and they were the first ones to admit it. Finally with all this talk of Philbin being a tyrant, may I ask just who are the other head coaches in the NFL that have authorized a players council? Please name them.

 

Chris Ivory can play man, the lions need to make an offer..

 

Don Shula's to use your word 'dictatorship' lasted for 3 decades

 

Now we're getting to the real point of the topic..

 

VD was, to put it mildly, an under achiever. You basically got a late first round for him (a second and a 6 that are likely to be very high picks) so the trade is a wash, for a player that had been demoted and whose strong suit is not the zone defense which is going to be the most common defense the Phins are going to be in, this season

 

It's the 4th year.
2009
2010
2011
2012

4




With Sean Smith's light seeming to come on & his accountability meter ascending, I'd be willing to bet he separates himself as the better corner this year.
Therefore, if we're going to pay a decent FA contract amount to either corner, I'm guessing it would be to Smith (who worked hard this offseason) than Vontae, and I simply don't see us paying premium FA money to all 3 corners. That could be upwards of $70M, and I don't see that as a financially wise decision.

 

Sorry, but do you have today's quote in which Karlos was ANYTHING but supportive of the decision? In fact, isn't it clear he said that his job was not to judge personnel decisions but to plain linebacker

 

Taking this all with a grain of salt. Could be worse, could be Jets fans this year.

 

The 'council' is not even effective until after the final cuts, number one and number two there is no way in hell any coach, GM or owner is ever going to give a player's council veto power over a trade

 

First of all, consulting is not a word I'd choose. The players do NOT get a say in who gets cut. The council is a chance for them to find out before a cut and try to help the guy turn it around. It's also a way for Philbin to know the mood of the lockeroom and for the lockeroom to better understand management's thinking.

The agreement was that if a guy was getting in the coaches doghouse, maybe at risk of heading towards being cut, the vets could step in and help the guy out. The clear intention is "before you give up on one of us, please let the players 'big brothers' have a chance to help him out'.

Trade, cut, whatever. Semantics.

The spirit of what the vets are hoping for is clear. They want to be part of a process of helping players who aren;t doing everything the way the organixation wants before it 'gets to that point'. I'd think that if Vontae were acting mature, not drawing flags, showed up in great shape, and was still the #1CB as a result, it's less likely he is traded. So it's still about how that player is showing up for work, and maybe being able to 'reach him' or help his 'light come on'.

Before you trade a guy like Vontae, maybe avail youreself as a coach of the vet council who can help the light come on for him.

It's fair to say it was already too late, and this was a last minute trade.

The other point of the council is that players feel they UNDERSTAND what's happening and buy into managements decisions better if their 'leaders' get told how to break things to the locker room. I mean these guys can be your PR ALLIES instead of hurting you. Why not meet with them, say, "Hey, we traded Vontae. Here's why, and here's how we need you to sell it to the other players and media. Thanks."

Then, if these vets are good soldiers they go do that.

 

I need to know what % do that, so I can formulate my position on this in an informed way since we are going the stats route.

lol.

 

Now wait a minute, if the leaders on your team need to be "activated" by the head coach with regard to a guy with all-pro ability who's been demoted from his starting spot, your leaders aren't functioning very well.

Those guys should've been on the case without any appeal from Philbin.

 

Martin has to work out for Ireland..has to...man that evaluation was bizarre to me.

 

The 'council' is not even effective until after the final cuts, number one and number two there is no way in hell any coach, GM or owner is ever going to give a player's council veto power over a trade

 

Absolutely it's a coaches job to get the most out of his players. I don't think the current staff got enough time with Vontae before he was traded. I think they were in the process of trying to get him to buy in when Ireland got an offer he couldn't refuse.

My guess is as good/bad as anyone's as to how much input Philbin might have on personnel. But if I were the coach I'd have a hard time telling the GM that I cant work with a player, especially a first rounder w/ Vontae's age/talent/contract, when I haven't even coached my first regular season game yet.

You saw our WR's, how could Philbin not be using every ounce of whatever juice he has to get some help at receiver?

 

Man you can't really believe that any NFL team would give a 1 for VD, can you? If you do believe it then we can do business with some land I got over in the Glades
I mean its very 'green'

 

Karlos contract makes him untradeable right now and i do not think there is enough evidence to claim Philbin would cut him

 

Exactly. It's the only rational that makes any sense to me. If Ireland had already decided that he wasn't going to re-sign Vontae then a 2nd & 6th round pick isn't a bad deal. I'm not 100% sold on Sean Smith though. He looks good, I admit. And the way he blew up the toss sweep on 4th and 2 vs Atlanta was erection worthy. But lots of guys have a sudden "awakening" in their contract year. Which means Vontae has a good chance of being in the Pro Bowl next season .

 

precisely!

 

you missed the point completely.

 

What's your point? Neither of those two are examples of irresponsibility, immaturity, unprofessionalism, or distractions to the team; hence their talent doesn't hinder or hold back the team.

Added: If Vontae were as dedicated as Wake, he probably wouldn't have been traded.

 

It's not just about what Vontae does do when he's on the field, but it's also about what he doesn't do...... and what he doesn't do is offer leadership, professionalism, great work ethic [that also serves to influences others to work harder], or hold others accountable for either not giving 100% or poor actions. That's basically means that's one important spot on the team where we're lacking those attributes. So basically, some of you are absolving Vontae of ALL the other positive & winning attributes a player can bring to the table simply b/c Vontae has talent and can play ok on Sundays?


It's funny. In a Super Bowl organization like the Giants, a cornerback who needs an adjusting is grabbed by the team and dumped into an ice bath, but we don't have that type of culture here b/c one of our own talented vets who should be dunking non-conforming youngsters into an ice bath is actually the guy in need of an ice bath himself.

 

I find it interesting and promising that despite the issues which have created an open season environment for dissent behind the veil of anonymity, the issue they continue to NOT gripe about is Ryan Tannehill winning the job. Mike Florio added that in. It didn't come from sources. The sources are griping. But they're not griping about Tannehill being a rookie starter. I think that's pretty interesting.

 

OMG! There's absolutely NO EVIDENCE to state that Philbin has no touch with the players This is BS! The guy has taken football decisions not personal ones. If he had a protruding jaw and his first name was Don you would not even dare to post this

 

I agree, that's often the case, but I firmly don't believe it is with Smith. I mean the guy busted his butt this offseason and even shaved the do b/c he wanted to look the part. I just see Smith as a true competitor who isn't satisfied with just being an ok starter. That's how he seemed at Utah, and that's how he seems now that he's realizing he has to work harder to be as good at this level. Unlike Smith, Vontae didn't seem like that in college, so I'm not sure Davis ever had that in him, and I wouldn't trust that he ever will, at least not enough to turn down a 2nd & 6th.

Personally, I don't think a contract year will be enough of a reason for Vontae to give 100% on and off the field..... but if it were, IMO, one ProBowl year still isn't worth sacrificing a 2nd & 6th for considering he hasn't done anything to show he'll give 100% to his new contract.