Do You Agree With the Trade of Vontae Davis for a 2nd?

Or that I can't quit f*cking with you......

 

LOL. how can you say that?

The only evidence there is so far is that Ireland is terrible at building a roster and his end result is that he is really good at building 6-10 football teams.

 

Mitch Kupchak

 

That is all we have actual proof of at this point. Promises or assurances of better things to come are worth about as much as a popcorn fart.

 

What about him? Oh yeah, he's that guy who was Ty Webb's college roommate that got expelled for night putting with the daughter of the Dean.

 

Because I have some sort of idea what a realistic draft looks like and can put it in context. You cannot.

 

realistic draft? LOL!

you can put it into context and I cannot? This is a riot!

Free Agency and the Trade market doesn't exist. Adding one contributor and possibly 2 in a good year per year, per draft is the way to go. Is that in proper context?

 

Get real. 4 drafts. Not a single playmaker was found. Not a single QB was found. Not a single RB was found. Not a single WR was found. Not a single OL was found outside of the 1st round, where many quality lineman are found. Not a single pass rusher was found. Not a single safety was found. In 4 years, we got a great, but injury prone LT with the first overall pick. A good center that happened to be the only center drafted that high since 1993. Some decent DL in Langford in Odrick, and then a bunch of mediocrity and crap. 3 picks in 4 years that have played up to their draft status and you know what a realistic draft looks like. Ha.

Ireland has been ****ty at everything since he's been here. And the excuses people have for him are laughable.

 

That's a strange(and frequently wrong) way to consider things.

There's legitimate issues with wide receiver that Jeff Ireland is at fault for at this point if he doesn't come up with a trade. There's also Chad Henne not panning out, but for the most part that's a very ignorant way to look at things.

At runningback, have they been bereft of talent when they clearly should have drafted someone ahead of time? Are you claiming Jalen Parmele not working out is a major black mark? Daniel Thomas hasn't distinguished himself but writing him off at this point is silly. Lex Hilliard was a success in his context.

As for offensive line...Who exactly are you holding a candle for here? Donald Thomas was a success. Shawn Murphy was not. Am I missing something?

As for safeties, they don't have great safeties, but they've done reasonably well with who they've drafted and the play hasn't really been bad either.

 

Then I guess nothing more really needs to be said if you consider bums like Lex Hilliard and Donald Thomas success. Clearly in your world, every GM to ever work in the NFL was very good at their job if this is your barometer of success. Carry on then and enjoy 6-10 seasons courtesy of Jeff Ireland being terrific at his job. I will continue to proclaim what a terrible job this guy has done, since all the evidence you could ever need, you know, the actual games being played with low talent rosters, supports such theory.

 

What in your eyes is a successful 6th round pick?

 

A solid backup. A good special teamer or a niche at something else. Donald Thomas was here 2 years, injured the 1st, and sucked the other. Hilliard I guess wasn't so bad since he played ST, but if you're basing talent evaluation and drafting on getting 130 career rushing yards (3.3 ypc) and average ST play, which is surely what you're doing, than every GM to ever hold a job in the NFL was a success.

 

Donald Thomas was pretty much by any definition a solid back-up, and continues to be in the league. Lex Hilliard was reasonably good for a 6th round back-up in 2009, and then was converted to fullback, where he was also reasonably good(and where 2.6 yards a carry isn't that bizarre for a guy mainly getting short-yardage carries as an I-formation fullback)

 

Donald Thomas is precisely one of the reasons I think Ireland is a weak GM with some of the same outdated tendencies as Bill Parcells. He used other picks to move up to spend a 2nd rounder on a plug and play position and a player who has not made a significant impact. The good GMs in this league know high picks on RBs is only a luxury a team with no major holes at the more crucial positions can afford such as QB, Safety, TE, etc.

 

Demarco Murray was drafted in the 3rd round. I know hindsight is 20/20 but you can still fault the strategy. RB is a plug and play position in today's NFL. All that was needed to back up Reggie Bush was an able bodied free agent or a later round guy. RB is the one position you can get by without a lot of depth at since there are always guys to be had on the waiver wire who can come in and perform the job at an acceptable level. But teams won't win without a top 15 QB. Add safety, TE, and WR to the positions that should have been addressed before RB. And thank God Ireland traded up to get another RB again this year while still leaving the cupboards bare at Saftey, TE, and WR. Jeff Ireland prioritizes player needs as if it was still 1985. The same way Bill Parcells does. That's why he should have been wiped away with the rest of the failed regime, IMHO.

 

Its one thing to say the position is fungible, its another to say that you should avoid anyone in the early rounds from that position. Spending a 2nd round pick on a RB doesn't entail some type of antiquated set or priorities. The best teams use early picks on RBs quite often.

 

Are you talking about Daniel Thomas? Donald Thomas was a 6th round pick Guard.

I don't think the standard you are proposing holds any water, or is adhered to in practice. Pretty much every dominant team in the league as of late has had major holes in some aspect or the other. Most of them have drafted a runningback in the 2nd round or higher. Most of them have done so with those holes.

By that measure the Steelers, Chargers, Patriots, Saints, and Eagles all probably using outdated tendencies.

 

Sure they do. And what do the best teams have in common? They already have an established QB and other positions of need addressed; therefore, they can afford the luxury of drafting a talented RB early. Miami hasn't had that luxury for quite some time.

 

Like Cleveland who many considered to have won the Draft Bowl this year?

 

Yes, I meant Daniel Thomas.

And see my response to Stringer. I didn't say it was foolish for any team to draft a RB high. Only foolish for teams with needs at more crucial positions. QB being the biggest. If a team already has a franchise QB that changes everything.

 

Not me. Cleveland and Mike Holmgren are one of the team/GM combinations that I think doesn't get it. Their offense will most likely be abysmal again this year unless Weeden pans out.

 

Yes, and I don't think what you're saying still is what is practiced in reality. As of late, even the best team in the league generally has major issues in some area. Most of them have also drafted a runningback in the second or higher.

It's not like you can really wish a player into existence at a specific position, either. Who should the Dolphins have drafted instead of Daniel Thomas in that position? Looking at the 2011 NFL draft at this point, I don't see anyone who you could have reasonably expected to help the Dolphins at other positions. All the guys who are better contributors than Thomas are pretty much all other running backs.

 

Like I said, Franchise QB is the big one. If you have a franchise QB, but maybe missing a safety...don't think it's a terrible think to draft a RB high. I agree with your second point. If RB is BPA, you can't fault a GM even if QB isn't addressed. But I don't think Daniel Thomas was BPA there. Just my opinion. I think there were at least a couple of WRs who could have helped out there. Not sure about safety or tight end.

And also, maybe you can forgive one year of drafting a RB while ignoring positions of need. But 2 years in a row? If Lamar Miller turns out to be a special player, I guess it's forgivable.

 

I voted no, although it's more by a hair than anything resounding. Quite frankly, I'm more or less neutral on this and will wait to see how it plays out. My instinct tells me this is prime to blow up in our face, but I can see the possibility of addition by subtraction here, no matter how talented Davis is.

 

Franchise QB is a big one, but like I said...you can't spontaneously generate available to you in the draft.

These are the players are the opportunity cost of drafting Daniel Thomas, basically. The next pick taken was Clyde Gates.

Maybe I'm missing someone, but I don't see anyone in those players who filled a need. The best of the wide receivers there I believe was Vincent Brown, who provided a pretty negligible impact. I don't know if we have any evidence that we really missed on anyone at this point in exchange for Daniels.

As for Lamar Miller, I'm not sure a 4th round pick is the point where you can complain about a runningback being too high. There's also a very strong case that he was by far and away the best player available on the board or close to it.

 

Again, this being the excuse for why Jeff Ireland should remain an NFL GM makes my point for me. A 2 year OG who was horrid one year and injured the other and a 3 year third string RB/FB that played ST. This is why Ireland isn't terrible at his job? Really? This is great stuff really. Were you the guy that allowed Matt Millen to remain an NFL GM for 7 years? Because he "hit" on some 6th-7th rounders because they sucked on the field enough to be backups and played some special teams? This stuff is comedy.

 

Hell No.

I had to witness the ****storm that goes for our secondary last year in person. It finally improved gradually towards the end of the year. David was our best last year and this year. He didn't play well last pre season either, and was demoted, just like this year.

He is imature and needs to act like the professional he is getting paid to be, but he has pro bowl talent. No one else on our secondary will be pro bowl.

 

I don't see how this makes your point for you other than you saying it.

Donald Thomas wasn't horrid. He wasn't a liability in any sense that damaged the functionality of the blocking game(the team was reasonably successful in terms of run game and pass protection). The year you claim he was horrible in he graded out at a 0.0 in Pro Football Focus(which is exactly average).

You seem to have forgotten the very nature of the argument some how. I didn't say Lex Hilliard and Donald Thomas are somehow evidence of Ireland's success, you claimed them evidence of failure- And you are wrong.

You can't even justify it under your own stated definition on what a successful 6th round pick is.

 

What are you talking about?
We lost our top 3 running backs after 2010 and were only able to replace one of them (with Reggie Bush, who hadn't yet proved himself to be a load carrier).

We clearly did not ignore a position of need. Plus, there was a run on running backs, so if we passed on Thomas we would've been left with no drafted running back capable of contributing last year, which would've been quite irresponsible.


We had what was roughly considered a COP back on the roster (Bush) and that was it, but you would've rather held out until the 4th round and expected to easily find a starting running back there?
Gates was widely considered a potential 2nd rounder, and if he develops, the 2nd & 4th round combo of Thomas-Gates could prove to be the best WR-RB combo available to us from those 2 rounds.

 

The 2012 draft did in fact address positions of needs, but b/c we didn't have enough high picks to address all the positions of need, namely the one you wanted, Monstblitz, you seem to criticize us as "ignoring positions of need".

QB, biggest need------ addressed in the 1st round
RT, second biggest need---- addressed in the 2nd round (was supposedly good value too).
DE, huge need considering the change to a 4-3 and Misi becoming a SOLB--- addressed in 3rd round
TE, big need in Philbin's offense--- addressed in 3rd round b/c of the talent available & player fit

Not every pick can be for need btw. It's better to take BPA than either overdraft a guy or to force a pick who might not necessarily fit your scheme. It's even better when you can find BPA who fits a need.

You might argue that a 2nd round WR is more important than a starting RT, to which I'd reply: Green Bay's leading receiver had 68 catches last year, where as the RT sees a lot more action. Passes can at least be distributed among WRs, TE, and RBs, where as there's only 1 RT protecting the right side pass rush. And if you think a 3rd or 4th round WR would've immediately stepped in and changed the receiving corps this year, you have another thing coming. By the time one of those mid round receivers are ready to make an impact we can already have signed a 2013 FA WR or traded for a quality one.