How the Vontae Davis trade went down

Reading this PFT post it makes it sound like we may get two 6th Rder's and the 2nd? Am I reading this correctly?

And the Colts could lose both their sixth-round pick (conditionally a part of the Davis trade) and their seventh-round pick (conditionally a part of their trade earlier this month with the Eagles).

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...or-next-years-draft-colts-adding-players-now/

Not sure what the conditions are but if we get three picks that would be a shocker.

 

The only reason I used Vernon as a measuring stick is because the complaints Dolphin fans had/have about Vontae are the same one 49er fans had about Vernon. To me that makes it more valid. They were both athletically gifted but mentally slower to adapt to the game. Im betting that Vontae ends up the CB equivalent of Vernon. I dont take it as you being a dick....everyone has an opinion. Thats why its a message board and not a GM office.

Im not as firmly in the anti-Ireland camp as I once was. He actually had a good offseason imo by getting RID of Marshall and by drafting Tannehill. He recognized problems and addressed them. But now he takes a guy who isnt a problem (more like a minor inconvenience) and flips him for a 2nd rounder depsite the fact the player has been good for the first few years and has shown flashes of being excellent. Yes Vontae has battled consistency issues but so do a lot of young players. The ability cant be taught.

I said he has an elite skillset not elite speed. His speed is very good, not great. His hands are good. His tackling is excellent. His positioning and technique are very good. He doesnt commit a lot of penalties (hardly any actually) and he has a decent feel for the game. His only problem is consistency from game to game. One game he looks elite, the next he looks good enough then next so so. But what gave me hope for Vontae is that he usually played up to the level of competition. Some players play well vs bad players or teams. If you have talent sometimes its harder to get up for lesser competition. However you can get up for a big assignment or game but if you dont have the talent it probably wont matter.

 

Or as the GM Ireland knew that a 5th or 6th wasn't good enough even if Philbin didn't think VD was the right fit. Maybe Coyle had a say in this also?

There are always going to be disagreements between GM's and HC's. The GM gets the final word, but a good GM will listen to the HC because the HC knows what type of players are needed for their scheme.

What I see from this trade is that the Dolphins now have the power to do a lot of things and fill a lot of holes. We needed better DB's when VD was here. We need better WR's. We need depth at a few other positions. It seems Tannehill may have been the right pick although it's too early to tell. Just like it's too early to tell if the VD trade was good or bad. After Ireland and Company have spent their 2 2nd rounders, 2 3rd rounders, 2 (potentially) 6th rounders then and only then can the Marshall and VD trade be critiqued.

 

I'm sorry it is just not a valid measuring stick. If it is, then could I say Vontae will probably commit murder like his other brother?

 

They are saying the word "both" to refer to the 6th to us and the 7th to Philly. They are going to lose "both" of those picks.

 

I say the fact they even offered just a six its telling how stupid our GM is thought of in the football world.

 

Then getting that sixth plus a second would be more telling that he isn't stupid....right?

Or are nickel CB's generally low balled?

 

Youre comparing apples to oranges, Im comparing apples to apples. Im talking about things from a football perspective and youre talking about things from a life perspective. Vontae has done nothing to prove he is a criminal and he doesnt have any kind of serious criminal past. He does however share similarities in performance with Vernon through their first few years in the league. So it is a valid measuring stick. Maybe you dont agree with it but to me its very valid. Blood lines mean a lot in sports.

 

I'm sorry but you aren't. You are comparing brothers. More times than not brothers are apples and oranges. Again for all you know Vontae is much more like his criminal brother. Do you have brothers?

Bloodlines are important when trying to decide physical talent, not when trying to decide behavior.

 

And all that amounted to how many wins for them?

Where's the other young talent? No more Garcon, Collie is Trent Green, Wayne is older and not quite as good as he was, Fleener hasn't done dick and their running game is non-existent.

 

Im not trying to decide physical talent or behavior. Im trying to place a time line on the application of physical talent. In Vernon's case that was really late in year 4. Im betting thats about the same timeline Vontae follows. That would mean we sold low.

 

You just value his "flashes of being excellent" a lot more than I do. I say a 2nd for an inconsistent player who lacks the professional mentality that he needs to go to the next level is a pretty nice haul.

Like I said before, if he continued to go downhill in to the season, we'd be left with very little value in him.

 

Very true.

Both my brother and I were great athletes growing up.

He's been in and out of jail more times than I can remember. He's a drug addict who lives paycheck to paycheck (when he has a job), hits his wife and the list of bad behavior goes on and on.

I, OTOH, am successful, happily married, never spent an hour in jail or been arrested, and have never even tried a cigarette.

Both of us were raised in the same household by our parents. So, I agree that you can't judge a person's behavior by their brother's.

 

That is behavior. His talent is there, he isn't applying himself properly. You are assuming he will based on that his brother did.

 

If you go by PFF ratings:
2011 Davis was the 43rd corner with a rating of 0.5, and Marshall was the 51st corner with a rating of -1.2. Smith was the 105th corner with a rating of -15.1
2010, Davis was 11th with a rating of +9.0, Smith was 9th with a rating of +11.0 and Marshall was 99th with a rating of -13.7
2009, Davis and Smith were 27th and 28th with ratings of +4.6 and +4.5. Marshall was 67th at -2.3

 

Yes, but the reason that you're betting that is completely ridiculous, imo.

Let's hurry up and sign all 3 of Gronkowski's brothers while we're at it.

 

You can have young talent or a proven track record. You don't get to have it both ways.

 

If you consider that VD was drafted at 25th and we more than likely just got a 30 something pick and a 6th rounder for him after he has yet to "shine" shows that we got good value. Now, it's not like the Colts were robbed. However, I'd say that the odds are in the Dolphins favor on who got the better deal. I don't see VD living up to his hype.

 

I am assuming he will based on what he has done. His career patterns his brother. First few years were filled with inconsistency because the brain was behind the body at times.

Have Gronkowski's brothers shown nearly as much promise? No. Your comparison is nothing more then trolling.

 

Point is they don't have very much to assume they win a decent amount of games this season.

 

People continue to neglect the fact that Indy trotted Curtis Painter out there week after week.

There's a difference between having bad QB play and having a QB play not worthy of the Lingerie football league. It wasn't a coincidence that the team as a whole looked exponentially better when Dan Orlovsky came in, who at least played at a CFL level.

 

And Vontae hasn't shown nearly as much promise as Vernon so from my perspective your comparison is fluff.

 

In this case I thought his sarcasm was obvious as hell.

 

Painter's offensive weapons were also superior to what Luck will have to work with this season, imo.

 

Davis has darned good speed as corners go. He was our fastest corner.

 

Contrary to popular belief, I think Ireland understands that his job is to procure talent to serve the needs and wishes of the coaching staff. If the coaching staff doesn't like a player and makes it clear that they won't play him, it does no good to keep the guy on the roster. I don't think they made it clear they wouldn't play Vontae, but I think it was clear they wouldn't start him and were running out of patience with him. Getting a 2nd rounder and a 6th is a decent return for a nickel corner and are more versatile "chips" for filling other needs. I think his pure talent level is higher, but he hasn't shown that he is likely to become a reliable consistent player.

 

I've been on record as saying I hated the trade, because it weakens the team at a position that was not that strong to begin with. Plus, if Ireland is still our GM next year, I don't have much confidence in him getting equal or greater value in the 2013 second round. Also, unless we do in fact make a trade before the season, we get nothing in return for a whole year.

I re-watched the Atlanta game this morning, and thought that Marshall had a rough outing. Other than that interference by Vontae, he had a pretty good game. (That blatant interference didn't help Vontae's cause, however.)

I will say this. If, and it is a big if, Philbin wanted, or even was okay to sign off on this trade, then I feel somewhat better about it because right now I have a lot more confidence in Joe Philbin than I do in Jeff Ireland. Phlibin is really tougher than his mannerism belies IMO, and he may realize he has some political capital right now. The owner, the staff, the media, and even the fans are on Philbin's side for the most part, so he may be willing to use this capital while he has the chance, to move forward his agenda.

 

Coyle was able to get some good production out of Pacman Jones and if we compare off field baggage, Davis has a briefcase and Jones has a steamer trunk. I just find it hard to believe that Coyle expressed enough negativity toward Davis that it had any role in his being traded.

 

Larry Fitzgerald without Kurt Warner is much less of a threat than with Kurt Warner.

Curtis Painter was the main reason the Colts were as bad as they were last year. His inabilities caused the rest of the team to coast through the season. And Indy's management and FO let it happen. They knew Andrew Luck was at the end of the line.

 

really? The sarcasm detector I own barely registered. It does have a 5 for your post though.

 

I agree with all your analysis of the Colts and they are closer to being a playoff team right now than Miami is, IMO.

 

Not really accurate. Yea, for AZ's situation absolutely but their whole offense revolves (or is supposed to) around Fitz.

For Indy, they lose Garcon, Tamme, and Clark.

I don't see guys like Fleener and Brazil making up for that in their first seasons.

Still no running game.

 

I just have no idea how people can think that other than for overrating Luck. Not that Luck won't be great, but it's his first year and the rest of his team is considerably worse than ours, imo.

Your sig though

 

Rams, Dolphins, Cardinals and Browns. The only teams I think will have worse record than the Colts.

 

Wow, that was a solid 7.