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The Official 2012 Boston Red Sox Thread

Discussion in 'Other Sports Forum' started by Ray Finkle, Feb 17, 2012.

  1. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose....ehhhh - no sleep lost....do the crime, do the time.

    so be it!
     
  2. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    No sleep lost here either but being an absolute jerkoff racist is a much more heinous crime to me than gambling or taking steroids. The HoF is full of guys less than clean morally, criminally or otherwise.
     
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  3. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    I completely agree. The Baseball HOF is a museum, it's not run by MLB. Not having Clemens, Bonds, etc in it for things they did when there weren't any rules against them is stupid. If people want to put that they took PEDs or failed a PED test fine but those guys should absolutely be in.

    There's a MAJOR difference between Jackson/Rose and guys that used PEDs. Gambling on baseball games is against the rules (especially throwing games on purpose), using PEDs (at the time those players were taking them) weren't.

    If you want to eliminate guys in the HOF that took PEDs, you'd have to clear out almost every player from (I'm guessing here) like 1960 to 2006ish then since "greenies" are now considered PEDs too and if a player gets caught uses them he's suspended.

    While we're at it, any one that used cork in their bats, pine tar or any other foreign material on the baseballs, spit balls, etc should be taken out as well. Since that's cheating and is against the rules (and actually in the baseball rule book) too.
     
  4. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    We should blow the Hall of Fame up and start from scratch!
     
  5. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    No reason for that.....they havent screwed anything up so far! Its an amazing place!
     
  6. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Actually, same official amount of proof (meaning zero) was found to show that Shoeless Joe or Pete Rose actually threw a single game or coached for a loss. The evidence revealed that Shoeless took money because he was poor and underpaid by a jackass owner, but his performance in that WS didnt match "throwing a game" and the evidence showed Pete lied about any gambling or gambling on baseball at all - but he never bet against the Reds - he finally admitted he bet on them to win, and bet other MLB games or other sports but he didnt "throw a game" either during the betting as skipper.

    And technically, its been documented that PEDs were against the rules from MLB leadership at the time, and it was proposed in the language to the CBA, but the Players Union voted it down so it was taken out of the collective bargaining deal at that moment in time. However, PEDs (and Cocaine/Marijuana/Speed, etc were banned in the language all steaming from the Pittsburgh Pirates trial) were against US law, so its a fine hair to use as an argument of right or wrong.

    As far as PEDs/Roids in general, yes, with all the "anonymous" testing zero proof shows "beyond being alleged" anything for Bonds or Clemens (and two failed Govt lawsuits to boot) and aside from modern suspensions and failed test since the language was finally agreed to by Players Union, folks like Manny, or Palmeiro, etc (and admitted PEDs taking by the like Canseco, McGwire, Arod, Pettitte, etc) the same amount of proof exists.

    The point is to me, whether is Shoeless Joe, Pete Rose, and for now the voters that keep Bonds, Canseco, McGwire, Clemens, Palmeiro, etc out are all ok by me. It doesnt harm the HoF IMO.

    I wager as older voters are replaced over time by younger ones, some votes may change....but if these characters do not get in until many years down the road via VETERANS COMMITTEE then so be it. Again, not an ounce of sleep will be lost by me. Its just how I feel about the INTEGRITY of the game and the numbers that make it so fun to love.
     
  7. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    Originally Fink asked this.....as it pertained to Bryd...

    how it morphed into an HOF question I am not sure, all I was saying was I think it does help players, and based on their ability the results vary....

    Why else would so many players take it? If it didnt help?
     
  8. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    That's a clown question bro!!! :tongue2:

    Of course PEDs alter the natural state of the human body and its performance/recovery...hence Performance Enhancing Drugs....HGH/Steroids alter the natural state.

    It's all about the INTEGRITY of the record books. Bottomline to me is not HOW MUCH improvement per player, its about any use and cheating the game regardless because any use alters the natural state.

    Suspicion of use is the same as suspicion of betting on or throwing a game. Same result is fine by me.
     
  9. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    the best race the Red Saux have been in all season.:tongue2:
     
  10. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I don't think RF said it didn't help. I think he was questioning how much does it help. Byrd used it and he still sucked.
     
  11. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    :no:10yr career....aided perhaps in the end to hold on, maybe since the beginning, who knows, but he has to live with that...but 10yr career does not the word "SUCK" equal. Taking PEDs does suck!

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2007/12/13/sports/20071213_MITCHELL_FEATURE.html

    How much?, a range for sure (just like nature), just take a look at the list, and you will find lots of players in the Mitchell report that were named and many were hanger ons and non-stars the so-called "dregs of the league" so to speak. PEDs still improved what they would have done without them, still aided them in recovery to put up extra numbers they wouldnt have put up.

    Again, for me, its not about how much, its the fact that it chemically enhances performance/recovery beyond the natural method found in the human body.

    Its cheating the integrity of the game - even if the results are different for all. And Bonds is like the villain in the Hulk movie, that soldier that was already one of the best without the Gamma-Radiation, but what made him the best without it, made him a freak performance wise with it. That's Bonds.

    Maybe another soldier doesnt get the same results.

    Look at the Giambi brothers - both abused - but talent naturally had separated already; the juice just enhanced the difference even more - but both cheated the game....all get something from PEDs, and that's cheating the game.
     
  12. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You pretty much proved his point, lol. Some people use roids and still suck. It improves their numbers but like Ray Finkle said, by just how much?

    I didn't mean to imply Byrd's entire career sucked but this year he did, even with roids.

    As for the integrity of the game, it probably is ruined but to keep Bonds, Clemens and others out of the HOF is wrong. I wouldn't even put an asterisk next to their names.
     
  13. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Actually no, the point is careers and stats are extended by PEDs....its taints the game and the numbers. Thats the point! The extension is the taint....by 1 at bat, by 1 pitch, by 1 year, by 10years...it bloats what should not be bloated.

    As far as HoF, thats up to the BBWAOA voters, and so far so good in my book.
     
  14. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That is true. It does. I don't think it warrants keeping someone out of the Hall of Fame, though.
     
  15. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    How do you know that's not any PED users in the HOF already though? The fact is we just don't know. I'd be surprised if there isn't at least 1 guy that used PEDs already in. It's a slippery slope.
     
  16. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Correct. The thing is we, or anyone, even the players taking them don't truly know how much it really helps. We can't say for sure because Barry Bonds took PEDs it made him hit 15 extra HRs in his career, or made Clemens strike out 100 more guys. It's impossible to know that.
     
  17. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Only 1 game behind Tampa Bay now. Still a lot of season left my friend.
     
  18. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    One needs to look no futher for an example in what Fenway does to ones batting numbers than Salty....
     
  19. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    He didnt do it......the Court found him not guilty.....:shifty:
     
  20. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    One of the biggest under the radar moves Theo made.
     
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  21. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    Ortiz 1 away from 400.......
     
  22. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Quick Red Sox update:

    Now tied for 3rd place, 4th best run differential in baseball, 1.5 games out of a playoff spot.

    Pretty impressive with the team they put out on the field night in and night out. Here's hoping they get Crawford, Ellsbury, Bailey and Buchholz back soon and try and make a run at this thing.

    Oh and John Lackey threw a bullpen yesterday!!!!!
     
  23. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    This just in......

    they are good, and not doing anything we didnt expect them too....

    It isnt like the Sox where going to be bad this year.....
     
  24. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    what am I missing here? More Sox media eating there own?
     
  25. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    http://www.boston.com/sports/columnists/wilbur/2012/06/pool_party.html
     
  26. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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  27. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    Vodka might be the worst thing for your esophagtis problem however...if he was drinking....
     
  28. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    He wasn't and the team gave him the ok to go. This is a bigger non story than Beckett golfing. It was a freaking charity event to boot.
     
  29. GreenMonster

    GreenMonster New Member

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    Who needs those guys with Franklin Morales. I couldn't be more impressed.
     
  30. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    I really won't miss seeing Matsuzaka in a Red Sox uniform next year. Sadly I'd rather watch Lackey.
     
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  31. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    yeah he is brutal....his problem was simple...the guy just nibbled too much...never went after hitters, which is a shame cuz he has the stuff.....he like AJ will go to the NL and do well watch..

    Only in sports, can you blow 100M.....in 5 years lol...
     
  32. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    To be fair to him, he did have 2 good years and did help win a WS title in 2007. It's not my money so I didn't mind the 100 million dollar investment.

    I do wonder just how much money the Sox made off of Matsuzaka due to Japanese ads etc. I know that would never reveal it but would be extremely interesting to see if they made back that money.
     
  33. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    true but I liken that to people getting adjusted to him....once they figured out he nibbles he was pretty easy to beat IMO.....

    he did pitch some good games in the postseason so yeah I agree for that he earned his keep so to speak...

    it is the same with Burnett's Yankee years, everybody dogged that guy, but I never will, he helped them win a title....he just couldnt get past the bright lights of NY....
     
  34. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    I think it was a mix of teams just getting a better scouting report on him as well as the miles on his arm and him getting injuried. The nibbling was a big factor (the biggest) don't get me wrong. At this point in his career he belongs in the NL though.
     
  35. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    Watch Pitt get him and they will have a dominate 1-2 punch....lol....

    If you swing early on Dice-K he has you right where he wants you...

     
  36. GreenMonster

    GreenMonster New Member

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    Josh Reddick and Brandon Moss 28 HR. Red Sox OFs 20 HR

    Tweet from Gammons, that is brutal.

    One game for your life, DiceMan or Lackey. **** Dice or Wakefield next start, give me Wake.
     
  37. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    It's really nice to see both Reddick and Moss, and Lowrie too, do well. Reddick always had power and ability, it was his plate approach that hurt him (and still does). Moss is playing out of his mind right now but still nice to see. I will always root for those guys but they were never in the Sox long term plans so it's nice to see them finally getting an opportunity to play everyday.
     
  38. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    ...
     
  39. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Good riddance. What I thought was going to be a pretty good buy low by Theo ended up being one of his worst signings.
     
  40. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Just when I think I'm out they pull me back in and then go 2 and 5 on a West Coast trip through Seattle and Oakland. Truly a pathetic performance by the offense this week. And as well as Ortiz is playing and as much as I love him he REALLY needs to shut up about contracts and getting paid, it's getting extremely old now especially since this is what the 4th or 5th time he's brought it up this year already.
     
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