James Jones Trade Rumors: Packers WR On The Block

We didn't dump anyone because of Naanee. We cut Moye, but odds were against him making it regardless of Chad. If Naanee makes the 53 and none of BJ, Matthews or Fuller make the roster or PS, then we can accurately say we cut a prospect for Naanee.

 

I'm so sick of hearing about those guys and praying (not hoping at this point, imo) one develops. How many years has it been now?

 

I don't know that "win now" is the right characterization, but I don't think it's particularly good roster development.

What they need is a game-breaking quality wide receiver. It's unlikely they find one at this point, and even more unlikely Jones is it. They do need depth, but that's a short-term need, and picking up another #2-#3 quality wide receiver when you've already got a host of those and are seemingly moving to an all-down 2-TE team which would eat up a lot of the #3/#4 wide receiver snaps on the roster. Pushing a guy further down the roster than his talent deserves isn't a good thing when you're not able to pay him a pittance.

Maybe if Bess is on the outs, like you think. I don't really agree with that, though.

 

That's news to me. Where's this host of #2/#3 players you speak of? I see only Brian Hartline and Davone Bess. And the chances are pretty decent that, as holdovers from a different offense, one of those two won't fit in exactly the manner that the new coaches want. Whether it's Davone Bess or Brian Hartline that doesn't end up fitting, doesn't matter. The chances are pretty good one of them doesn't.

Legedu Naanee is a waste of roster space. Chad OchoCinco is here one year and probably shouldn't even be here for that much. Rishard Matthews and B.J. Cunningham are 6th and 7th round picks, developmental players. Jeff Fuller isn't even that, he's a UDFA.

You say we have a "host" of James Jones caliber players, but I see a maximum of two of those types of players manifesting by 2013.

I don't understand why we should be acting like we're allergic to talent at the wide receiver position.

You say "bad roster development". I think you've got way too narrow a view on that. James Jones is a guy that Joe Philbin helped develop in Green Bay. Wouldn't bringing him to Miami then represent "good" roster development? Taking advantage of the talent of a guy that you drafted and developed?

 

Ginn has made tough catches (not many, mind you) in the past but that does not make him reliable... I'm just saying how your "proof" of a highlight reel makes Jones a reliable pass catcher is bull****, plain and simple.

If we acquire Jones for a 6th round pick or less, I'd be fine with it... I just think that Jones' numbers are inflated in the Green Bay offense and they wouldn't transfer to Miami unless he managed to secure a starting role.

However if you are going to say that Jones' hands are as good as Bess' hands... then you are sadly mistaken.

 

If you're familiar with James Jones as a football player and you've watched him any amount then you know that he is a guy that pulls in really tough catches more than you'd expect, but at the same time a guy that drops a lot more easy ones than you'd expect.

 

Exactly sums up James Jones perfectly. In that regard he isn't a lot different than how Chris Chambers was for us.

 

Chad Ochocinco, regardless of you liking him or not has been signed to fill that role.

Regardless of their actual role, a #2 TE directly competes with a #3 WR in terms of snaps. Michael Egnew doubly so because he's for most intents and purposes an actual wide receiver. Charles Clay may be on the field in some circumstances where he's not competing with a wide receiver for snap count, but it's doubly so. Philbin was just recently talking about the possibility of them running a solid amount of 3 tight end sets.

There's a very good chance Miami is looking at a snap count range in the mold of what the Patriots have had the last two years where a #3(much less a #4) receiver isn't going to get a tremendous amount of snaps by design. That looks very much like the future investment into the team.

I don't buy the "chances are" argument either. Hartline is pretty much out of the running, they're trying to resign him now and clearly like him. I don't think there's a very good argument Bess doesn't fit, either.

 

J Jones is not somebody I see with much upside to his game. He falls into the "who cares/so what" realm for me, I wouldn't be offering any draft picks for him that's for sure. If he gets released that's different, but I'm still not sure I would be calling him as a FA either.

 

I've liked James Jones for a while. People are obsessed with drops. Look at the league leaders in drops every year, and tell me you wouldn't take any of those guys over our best guy right now.

 

How many times do I have to say that I never said he's reliable. I guess at least one more. That wasn't a highlight reel btw, that was only the great catches he made last year w/his "terrible hands."

He makes a lot of catches that only Bess could make. I don't see Bess going up for jump balls and pulling them in like Jones does either.

 

Last season the top 6 in drops were Roddy White, Brandon Marshall, Greg Little, Wes Welker, Victor Cruz and Dwayne Bowe. FWIW.

 

For ONE year. He's 34 years old and playing on a one year veteran's minimum contract laced with incentives. And that's supposed to stop you from looking at acquiring a 28 year old that you've had a hand in developing for the last 5 years?

Point being? This TEs unit isn't as talented as the Green Bay unit and Joe Philbin found plenty of use for James Jones even with Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, Randall Cobb and Donald Driver on the roster at the receiver position.

Until they sign Hartline to that contract then there's zero reason whatsoever to consider him "out of the running". He is currently schedule to be a free agent in 2013. Whether you buy the Davone Bess argument or not, we're not going to have a better idea of whether he fits until we see him play in the offense. Same with Hartline. But James Jones has played in a similar offense and Philbin knows how he fits.

 

The last two seasons Jones has caught 100 passes and dropped 14 more. That's a drop for every 7.14 catches. Roddy White over the same time period is at 8.69x. Brandon Marshall was at 6.19x over 2010-2011. Wes Welker was at 8.07x over the two years. Victor Cruz was at 7.92x however that's just 2011 because he didn't catch anything in 2010. Greg Little was at 4.36x, and again that's just 2011 because he wasn't in the NFL in 2010. Dwayne Bowe is at 8.50x for the two years.

Larry Fitzgerald is the most ridiculous I've seen with only 6 drops in 170 catches 2010-2011 which equates to 28.33x. DeSean Jackson is probably the droppiest of the guys considered to be excellent receivers, having dropped a ball for every 5.10 catches in 2010 and 2011.

Chad OchoCinco dropped one for every 9.22 catches over 2010 and 2011. Brian Hartline dropped one for every 7.09 catches in 2010 and 2011. Davone Bess dropped one for every 11.91 catches.

 

Holy effing **** balls!!!!!

He is not a man, but a god.

 

Thanks CK. That makes it very clear. To me, Jones is close enough to most of those guys that drops is not something I worry about much if we got him. Unless the asking price is ridiculous I can't see the downside of getting him. I think he'd be a starter for us, and post his best season to date in 2012.

 

Hartline will produce this year and has far better hands imo....we don't need him unless it's on the low. We have WR that have the ability to do great things in this offense. They just need the chance to step up and show what they can do. I don't recall Bess or Hartline being targeted that much in the past so I'm excited to see them play this year

 

What do you think the cost would be? We have 2 3rd's next year. So I'd offer up a 4th. The key question is whether with more opportunity can he be that guy?

 

I personally like looking at yards per attempt and yards per pass snap, targets per pass snap, stuff like that.

Consistently the past two years, Jordy Nelson and Greg Jennings have averaged about 20% target rate on targets per pass snap. James Jones was only at 15% this year, with both Jordy Nelson and Greg Jennings established ahead of him. Toss in Jermichael Finley as he was healthy and he had a good 17% target rate. As a result, Jones averaged 1.72 yards per pass snap. That's 651 yards and 7 TDs on 376 pass snaps, on 56 targets.

But the thing is, he was averaging 11.625 yards per target. If he'd been targeted at 20% like a starter in that offense, at that rate you're looking at a 52 catch, 874 yard and 9 TD season...and that's still at only 376 pass snaps. If he had the 535 pass snaps that Brandon Marshall had, you're projecting more like a 75 catch, 1244 yard, 13 TD season.

That's not saying that is exactly what James Jones would have done in Miami, I'm just saying that's how well he performed there in Green Bay in 2011. A guy can have that kind of season for real one place, get traded to another team, and play like crap. It can and has happened.

I'm just trying to contextualize exactly how good James Jones was in 2011, considering he was like #3 or #4 down the list of receiving options on any given pass play.

You just have to see beyond the drops he had in 2011. I tend not to care when you've got more touchdowns (7) than drops (6). I think that's something we can all agree on, no?

 

Your misinterpreting pretty much everything going on here... or just twisting my words. I included Nanee in the castoff category. That is all. Said we can't dump more prospects for another Ocho or Nanee. (Referring to Jones) Jones is just another role player, better than the two I mentioned no doubt, but far more costly than scrapping them up.

Like mentioned, we aren't in a win now stage. Giving up picks for a guy who might contribute and make the offense a tiny bit better for a few years is counter productive. That goes against the grain of how we've operated.. "He's only 28 and he was only the 3rd or 4th option in their offense and he can magically get better without the all-world QB, yadda yadda" Yall aren't exactly winning me over with those arguments. I'd much prefer we give our young players the reps. Egnew,Miller, and the WRs have potential to be just as effective or more so. Bush is no slouch out of the backfield himself. If your looking for a play maker, why Jones ? Sure Philbin knows him well, so what ? Doesn't mean he's going to improve his play just because he's a starter. Same player.

As for Moye....The odds sure are against him now that he never got a fair chance.... but that's a different story.

 

Yes, James isn't much more of a long-term fix. At the end of the day you've still got to find a better roster, or and demote James or another talented level below where they can be properly utilized.

No, they've got Jermichael Finley and a bunch of guys who are not very good. They've got less of a reason to utilize 2-TE sets than we do.

The fact that they want to resign him suggests they think he's a guy who will work. If somehow they fail to resign him, that doesn't change that.

 

Maybe I am misinterpreting you, but I am not intending to twist your words.

You said:

I do not agree with that. I do not agree that James Jones is more of the same of either Naanee or Johnson. I also would not lump Naanee and Johnson together either. Johnson was recently, as in a couple years ago, a fairly productive #1 receiver. Can he rediscover his lost mojo? Who knows? Probably not, but it isn't out of the question. It would not be all that surprising if he came close to his 2010 stat line, 67 catches for about 12 ypc and 4 TDs. Naanee has never been much more than a #4, marginal #3 WR on any team he's played for. IMO, he has nowhere near the talent of James Jones. IMO, the latter is still young and would represent a definite upgrade of our WR corps, and well worth a 5, 6, or 7th round pick. If trading for Jones meant cutting one of the 3 rookies, I'd be disappointed, but defer to the superior knowledge on the player that Philbin has. There is a fairly reasonable chance that trading for Jones would mean cutting Naanee. I'd guess Hogan as the most likely, or possibly Marlon Moore. None of those choices would severely upset me. IMO, if we trade for Jones this month, he has as likely a chance to become a starter for us as any WR we've got.

 

All being pretty much average at best at this point is what I'm getting at.... I did say I'd take Jones over the 2 new vets we have. But It'll cost us ! I don't think it's likely to be worth it. What i take from the Ocho signing is that these young guys won't be ready to contribute, which is really unfortunate with Gates. And with it looking more and more every day that Tannehill will play this season.... we had to get him something to work with and take attention away from Hartline. I mentioned earlier that If we are still looking for help at WR that I'm holding out hope that Santana Moss gets cut. Ultimately, I think we can be competitive but arent serious contenders in 2012, so I'd rather we force feed guys like Hartline, Bush, Bess, Fasano etc. and see what they're worth to us.

 

I have to disagree with this statement. Crabtree and Quarless could start just about anywhere and be very good. DJ Williams is nothing to sneeze at but was stuck behind all these guys.

 

Speed for days. Butterfingers trumps speed.

 

couldnt concentrate on the video because that music in there sucks big time, but still 4 nice grabs dont make him a bess type catcher

 

Sorry. I think Bess is a reliable pass catcher and when you say "he has hands like Bess" I can only imagine that means you felt Jones was a reliable pass catcher...

But maybe I think higher of Bess' possession skills moreso than you.

 

I'd go so far to say Crabtree doesn't really even belong on a roster, much less starting. He's a blocking specialist who can't block. He's managed to rank as one of the worst on PFF in terms of blocking his two seasons in the league, which is remarkable because he's got significantly less snaps than most if not all of the players rated as poorly. Quarless is better, but he's hardly starter material and certainly hasn't distinguished himself as a decent player.

 

Really ? I like Hartline, but seriously you cannot be comfortable with our depth and overall playmaking ability of our pass-catchers. They are putting Thomas out wide, should tell you something. Go get Jones if it is reasonable price.

 

I suspect what they are thinking is our offense will work from the inside out, instead of centering on the Wr's ours will be centered on our strengths Te/Rb and work off of what matchups they create.

 

I think James Jones and Brian Hartline would complement one another pretty well. I've taken a look at every throw that targeted Jones from the 2011 season. It's clear that he brings things to the table that Brian Hartline does not, nor ever will. He's a very physical presence that can break contact and run for yardage after the catch. He has nice balance through his routes and during the catch and is a very RAC-friendly guy. Hartline can occasionally keep his feet under him and I like his acceleration but that's the extent of his RAC ability. Too often he went straight to the ground right after catching the ball. And he's certainly not going to physically break much contact and get extra yardage, like James Jones did a bunch in 2011. On the other hand, Hartline clearly has better hands for making challenging catches away from his body and toe-tapping the sideline. Both players are good with the back shoulder throw. Both players get open against man coverage.

I really think James Jones would make a great addition to this unit. Outside of Hartline I just don't know what to expect from any of the other players. If Davone Bess and Chad OchoCinco look great, that's fine. James Jones would still make a great addition because Legedu Naanee is the very definition of "just a guy" and Clyde Gates doesn't seem to be getting it.

 

Totally agree! If we trade for Jones, he is going to end up being a starter for us at least by the middle of training camp. IMO. Git'r done Jeff!!!

 

See Chris Chambers.

 

He might even end up our top overall receiver. He clearly drops a fair number of passes that he could have caught, some contested but still catchable, others even uncontested. But like Hartline, he showed a knack for drawing some penalties, and if you get him matched up against the right guy he can make big plays that go the distance. You want Jones catching the ball on the slant more than Hartline just because physically he can break contact and do more that way. You also want him catching more screens than Hartline because of the physicality.

If Green Bay made him available at the right price I'd do it. The Dolphins already have an extra 3rd. I would give Chad Johnson a deadline (the first cut date) by which I do not want to see him making any playbook-related errors in camp or preseason. Beyond that date, if he has to ask someone where to line up, he runs the wrong route, he lines up wrong, doesn't get the motion right, etc...I would cut him. We're not giving him a year to screw around and still not have a grasp of the playbook like he had in New England. He either learns it or he doesn't. If he does, that's great. We can keep him along with Hartline, Jones and Bess, and maybe actually field a real NFL caliber wide receivers unit. From there you probably end up keeping one rookie, and if Clyde Gates is able to make his case then he can be a 6th. Or maybe you end up feeling two rookies really made their case.

 

Does that talk of him regularly needing TJ to tell him where to line up when both played for the Bengals have any merit? Or is it just something founded on the www, that grew some legs?

 

It has legs because that same phenomenon was emphatically echoed by the Patriots, and additionally when Bob Bratkowski was asked why they never moved Chad around more, he said because they didn't want to give him more than he could handle, or something to that effect.

 

Reading through this thread, its mind-boggling to me how many people dont want Jones and are happy with our WR unit.
The cupboard is so bare at WR on this team it looks like college students fridge.
Any chance this team gets to add reasonable WR talent, it should do it.