I already have. We'll just agree to disagree. I think he has great body control, but I don't think he's naturally quick. His cone drill numbers are better than Devin Hester's... now... you wanna tell me that Brian Hartline is quicker than Devin Hester? You'd be out of your mind to believe that. Combine results are good, but they don't tell the whole story. Good numbers in the 3-cone, 20 yard cones, etc, does not automatically mean that a player is 'quick'... as in 'quick-twitch'. It's what Philbin was talking about when he recently described Olivier Vernon and Lamar Miller, and it's what I'm talking about here. A good example of what I'm talking about... remember waaaaay back when they had an NFL QB competition in the off-season? Dan Marino beat Randall Cunningham in the 'mobility' challenge one year when everyone thought Cunningham was going to run away with it (no pun intended). The QBs had to run around some cones and make some throws on the run. You would think that a quicker, more mobile QB would easily win, which Cunningham most certainly was. To everyone's surprise, Dan won that challenge, but, definitely not because he was 'quicker' than Cunningham. It was because he had better body control, and was thus able to take advantage of his natural accuracy. That's more what I'm talking about. Hartline has great body control. He's a more 'accurate' WR.
When you look at the combine numbers and watch him on the field, it backs it up. I guess we will have to agree to disagree because I see nothing that doesn't show that Hartline isn't a really quick receiver. His ability to make quick cuts in routes and with the ball in his hand, plus the numbers on the combine to back it up. Also, Dan Marino was very quick. Not fast at all, however he could make quick movements with the best of them. Cunningham was more long stride runner, not exactly quick.
Brian Hartline's quickness for his height is pretty special. You're talking about a guy that is 6'2" and runs a cone drill in the 6.6's. That's unusual. I don't see him as slow off the line at all. He's actually very quick and that's why he doesn't get jammed successfully. He's such a natural runner, picks up his feet, accelerates, good body lean, control, quickness...just the bottom line is he doesn't have great top gear or power. Those are the things holding him back from being an elite level receiver. I don't mean to hate on Davone Bess. But I think in this offense, Davone will continue to be what he already was. He's a guy that's averaged about 700 yards with a few touchdowns sprinkled in, since arriving in Miami. I see him repeating that. Philbin will especially make use of him down the seam, which is an area of the field that seems of critical importance in Philbin's passing attack, by design. But don't be surprised if they try Hartline out on the inside as well. What I see between the two, Bess and Hartline, is Bess as a guy that's averaged about 700 yards receiving where Brian has averaged like 550, however Hartline could see his production damn near double, while Bess' production stays about the same. That's why I say the scheme changes will benefit Hartline more than Bess.
By all measures, Brian Hartline is more agile than Davone Bess. He can cut sharper and clear greater distances after those cuts. Those are your measures of agility. I think some are mistaking agility for balance and power. Hartline is a great runner, very fast, in part because he's learned to pick up his feet when he's running. He's a hurdles champ. Bess has a shorter, lower stride, with more solid foot contact on the ground. His running is more balanced and integrated, and as a result he's more dangerous on a football field heading into, during, and after his cuts...because football is about more than just running and cutting, it's about catching and dealing with contact as well. Hartline on the other hand, you can see on the video, if he's in stride or he's cutting, a strong wind can blow him off his feet.
That's what I thought when I read the Marino/Cunningham comparison. Marino had very quick feet while RC was more of a long strider. RC would be an example of a guy who was fast but not that quick while Marino would be an example of a guy who was quick but not fast. People would expect RC to win a mobility challenge if there were enough straight aways to let his speed come into play. But in a challenge where the cones are close together and you get points for your passing accuracy, Marino would probably have the advantage. I would argue that someone that felt Marino was not quick, probably isn't particularly good at identifying quickness when they see it.
Devin Hester, 3-cone drill: 6.78 Cameron Wake: 3-cone drill: 7.12 Does anyone seriously think Hartline is 'quicker' than both of those guys? Seriously? It's not even remotely close. Please don't tell me how Brian Hartline is 'quick' because he had a good cone drill time. A good time in the 3-cone drill does not automatically equal quickness. I believe it is also about body control and economy of movement. You think otherwise? Fine. I'll just disagree and leave it at that. I still think he's a good WR. Hopefully, we can agree on that.
I think you have a different definition of quick than what scouts, evaluators, athletes, gurus, etc. have, which is the cause for confusion.
Aaaaaaand now we're back to the personal attacks. Awesome. I am such an idiot. I will now just step back and bask in your glory. Mm-kay?
In watching him over the past few years and in the video now, he's not a sudden athlete like Devin Hester, that's true. The reason he's able to separate and time well, is because he runs without wasted movement. He's efficient, agile.
Calm the hell down. I wasn't attacking you. Clearly though the way you define "quickness" is different that everyone elses. I'm not saying your wrong or right.
Madden 2012: Davone Bess's agility: 95 Brian Hartline's agility: 88 Hey, numbers don't lie, right? I win. (***THAT WAS A JOKE***) (***THAT WAS A JOKE***) (***THAT WAS A JOKE***)
He is absolutely quicker than Cameron Wake. If Cameron Wake tried to run receiver routes, he'd look pretty average.
Hartline is great working the sidelines and at drawing flags, but dude needs to get in the end zone more. I think he's underrated based on watching him for 3 years now. He can get open and make the tough catches. The question becomes can he score more touchdowns? If so then he's a weapon out there.
according to a leading black sports writer Hartline is a victim of racism http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/sport...dolphins-why-the-hate-for-brian-hartline.html "I know why, and YOU know why. The difference between the two of us is I’m not afraid to say it..." an interesting & well defended observation
I do think that is part of it. I have seen many reviews of Hartline that downplays his athletism, however he is a really good athlete. I do not think that would happen to him if he was black.
Totally agree! I actually laughed while I was watching that video a couple times... he was snapping db's ankles with the quick stops to grab the ball!
Not sure I agree with that. He's actually always kind of reminded me of a taller, tougher, but slower Ted Ginn. They have that same track background and running style. In fact they competed against each other in track.
What was that reciever that used to play for Denver? Tall white dude. That guy was money. Could be a good comparison. I hate to keep using white guys but can't help it.
I noticed that as well. In fact, now that I think about it, he kind of reminds me of a taller OJ McDuffie
I didn't read this whole line so I am sorry if this has already been covered. Thanks CK for this. As for the bold, it seems to me looking at this that often BH seems to be anticipating tighter coverage, gearing up for the big hit that doesn't come or is not as catastrophic as expected. Just a thought from what I saw.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NNfN4UQQy8 I don't really see Jim Jenson. However, how great would Jim Jensen be in today's offenses?
sorry if I implied that I thought he reminded me of JJ's play in any way other than if Marino need a first down then JJ was the target. But yea he would get a lot looks.
lol nope it was me. I was referring only to the number of first downs BH seemed to be in on and that that reminded me of when Marino needed a first you knew he was going to hit JJ for it and then JJ was gonna get hammered.
You give Hartline a good QB that can hit him in stride and a good offense that can get him open, we'll finally see a few long TDs out of him.
I'm sure Harts stats will improve because of the system, however I don't believe we have a Jordy Nelson here that has been hampered by the system, Jody's body balance, strength, and ability to beat the jame at the Los is legit #1 stuff, hart isn't close imo.
It's great that so many of us are looking forward to seeing what Hartline can do in this new offense. What makes it so funny is to read this thread while also thinking about my (and many other Dolphin fans) thoughts at the moment during the draft when his name was read off the card. Something like "Brian Hartline...WHAT!?!" or for many, just "Who?" lol
pardon me for going a bit OT, but ... Looking at that the thing that stood out for me was how poor the OL play was for the first 5 or 6 games. Almost every pass Henne made he was under heavy pressure, but in the later games Moore had time to set his feet and find a target. Not saying Henne is better than Moore or anything like that but I remember reading on Football Outsiders recently an article that said an abnormally high percentage of Henne's sacks came before he had a chance to throw the ball (under 2 seconds from the snap or so), and this video reinforces for me that the problems Henne had were magnified by poor blocking.
Hartline just needs more moves when hes got the ball. 1st catch the ball, then stay on your feet, then make some moves beit jukes, high stepping or turning the hips. Brandon Marshall did that for fun. Hartline is a catch the ball and move forward after the catch player without any moves that will fake out a CB or Safety with quickness ( notice i didnt say speed) or moves. He is an open space WR that puts emphasis on catching the ball 1st. That isnt a bad thing but hes not a burner and he isnt going to make many big plays. Thats just the way he is.
