1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

My Favorite UDFA: RB Jonas Gray

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by ckparrothead, May 7, 2012.

  1. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    Here's some video I whipped up on Jonas Gray, my overall favorite UDFA. Everything is in chronological order, starting with his disastrous showing against South Florida in Week 1 which was a turning point in his entire career. The former Parade All American had been a disappointment to that point, never getting to the top of the depth chart. He was known as the locker room comedian. For a big back, he danced too much. Jerome Bettis sought him out during spring drills and took him aside and gave him some advice on being a big back like him and playing like one, getting north-south. I don't know how much of that he took to heart, but something clicked in 2011 after that disastrous fumble. The video speaks for itself, just watch him play the game.

    [video=youtube;83wet2qcq4E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83wet2qcq4E[/video]
    [video=youtube;8MJOq1SdBcc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MJOq1SdBcc[/video]

    Some notes:

    * Unusual quickness, lateral agility, burst and speed for a 230 lbs guy.
    * His high recruit, Parade All American background shines through. High talent level.
    * A poor pass protector to this point, but I often find that can completely reverse itself in the pros.
    * Embraced the details/fundamentals of the position more and more as the season wore on.
    * Biggest worry is tendency to stop moving feet, which he seemed to be getting better with as season wore on.
    * Not the best pass catcher but started to 'get it' more as season wore on, running routes.
    * High 'will factor' in his game, not getting caught from behind, punching ball in end zone, working for 1st down.
     
    Muck, LandShark13, Marco and 16 others like this.
  2. BuckeyeKing

    BuckeyeKing Wolves DYNASTY!!!!

    25,411
    5,743
    113
    Dec 6, 2007
    What is the likely hood he makes the roster? I can't see them keeping 4 Running backs. PS candidate?
     
  3. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    Since he came to the Dolphins already injured, you might be able to get away with the PUP list until they force you to put him on the active roster at mid season.

    That's what I would do.

    Try and put him on the practice squad and be prepared to have him stolen, especially if he's showing signs of health. Would be a dumb move IMO considering the talent involved.

    I don't see why not keep Bush, Miller, Messam, Gray and Thomas. That's four tailbacks and one fullback type. The Dolphins don't utilize a true fullback. Talent is talent. When you have talent, keep it.
     
    Muck, jazz, gunn34 and 4 others like this.
  4. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Agree 100% on all your suggestions. Definitely do NOT try to sneak him on the PS. That is the most certain thing we should not do.
    PUP for the first half season or carry him inactive as the 53rd player on the roster till his knee is 100% ready.
     
    dolfan22 likes this.
  5. BuckeyeKing

    BuckeyeKing Wolves DYNASTY!!!!

    25,411
    5,743
    113
    Dec 6, 2007
    I agree with keep him talent is talent but I'm worried we are talking about Ireland. I'm still not convinced with that guy :lol:
     
  6. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

    34,739
    47,801
    113
    Dec 19, 2007
    Birmingham, AL
    I saw some highlights of this kid right after we signed him and also loved what I saw. He's got some serious potential. Agree about his injury being a challenge and making him a long shot to make the team. But, he is talented.

    Messam is an interesting player. I have trouble seeing him in any kind of traditional FB role; I wonder if Clay won't wind up playing a lot of HB/FB for us. Messam is a strange size for a RB at 6'4 but when he plays he reminds me a bit of a James Starks or Dorsey Levens type. Just taller but somewhat proportionate.

    This is a pretty deep RB situation for Miami. Haven't seen this much depth in a long time - throw in Slaton to compete there as well.

    Would love it if we could "hide" Gray in the depths for a year and see what he does fully healthy next year. PUP would be a great option.
     
  7. sws84

    sws84 Season Ticket Holder

    1,870
    115
    0
    Nov 25, 2007
    Loved the Jonas Gray clips and would like to give Mike Mayock an honorable mention for how he covers the Notre Dame games. I love how he explains what is happening on each play. I know he is an ex Giant, but I wonder if he would consider covering the Dolphin games? ;)
     
  8. P h i N s A N i T y

    P h i N s A N i T y My Porpoise in Life

    3,560
    968
    113
    Apr 19, 2012
    Treasure Coast, FL
    reminds me a bit of thomas jones.
     
  9. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    Reminds me of Shonn Greene, Thomas Jones and Michael Bush.
     
  10. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

    40,533
    33,035
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    Maryland has ugly uniforms.

    Jonas Gray looks interesting. I look forward to seeing him in preseason.
     
  11. dolfan32323

    dolfan32323 ty xphinfanx

    12,587
    1,574
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    Washington DC
    Was very happy when we signed him... His injury turned out to be a great fortune for us IMO. Looking forward to seeing us be able to run the ball no matter who is in the backfield.
     
  12. Aquafin

    Aquafin New Member

    4,736
    304
    0
    Jun 16, 2011
    the poor house
    I would keep Jonas and trade Thomas and one other player for a legit wr even though i may end up giving up something else.
     
    Da 'Fins likes this.
  13. Bofin

    Bofin Member

    411
    109
    0
    Apr 22, 2008
    i'm interested in seeing thomas healthy this season and in our new offense which may really fit his running style.
     
  14. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

    7,760
    3,486
    113
    Sep 4, 2010
    Maui, Hawaii
    He looks better than Daniel Thomas, IMO. If Ireland is willing to admit he made a mistake in selecting Thomas, as he should. I can easily see Jonas beating out Thomas for a running back position with the Dolphins.
     
    Da 'Fins likes this.
  15. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

    27,364
    31,261
    113
    Apr 6, 2008
    I am too. DT was much less effective after he was injured. IMO he is clearly a more well-rounded back than Gray. He is better as a receiver and pass blocker. I would say that Gray showed more power and a top end speed, but that DT showed more quickness and better vision. I tend to favor shorter backs since I find the lower center of gravity desirable, but there have been several taller backs that have been successful. Hopefully, these guys will both be healthy and we can see a good competition. Making a guess at this point, I'd be inclined to keep five backs (Bush, DT, Miller, Gray and Messam (FB)) and have Clay listed as a TE.
     
  16. FanMarino

    FanMarino Season Ticket Holder

    2,906
    718
    0
    Nov 24, 2007
    Nuff said. If Bettis having a word in your ear about North/South running and you dont listen and put it into practice then you dont deserve a place in the NFL. Glad he listened. :-)
     
  17. FanMarino

    FanMarino Season Ticket Holder

    2,906
    718
    0
    Nov 24, 2007
    Would like to see him high step those ankle tackles. Hes seems to predict the tackle and protect the ball which isnt a bad thing but if he can high step when hes outside the Tackle and ride the hit he can gain more yds. Am i too picky?
     
  18. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

    10,191
    4,187
    113
    Dec 3, 2007
    Bradenton,FL
    Your not to picky. Theres a reason hes an UDFA, not just injury. Im very limited to what ive seen from Gray live. However, after watching the videos CK put together. Im very impressed with quickness, feet, and how fast he gets up to top end speed. He plays fast. What he doesn't do well IMO, is anticipate a hole, he doesn't break many arm tackles for a guy his size, and he really does a poor job, when in open field, or getting that extra yard or to upon contact. He simply runs into someone and gets stoned. He does a good job on the goal line with this. But its like once he gets 5-10 yards he just simply gives up.

    There are some impressive things in those videos that get me excited. Then a lot of blah feelings about his play that I am unimpressed with. There is certainly potential there. I certainly wouldn't bank on anything with him. I also would try and stash him on the PS unless he shows in preseason he would be a good STs player. But again, thats simply my views based on the videos ive seen and all of 2 games live.
     
  19. FanMarino

    FanMarino Season Ticket Holder

    2,906
    718
    0
    Nov 24, 2007
    I disagree. Thomas will get his chance this season. Last season should be a wake up call for him. Up to Thomas what he does now in Pre-season. To say Gray is better is pie in the sky right now. Players are graded coming into the Draft for a reason.
     
  20. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    No idea which videos you're watching. Not even close to how I see it.

    I can understand that with his size you'd wish he broke a few more tackles with physicality but he actually broke a good number of tackles so that's pretty nitpicky. I think FanMarino was closer to the mark when he wished that he'd not get caught by the ankles so much, but I think considering he's only got like 120 college carries, there's probably some learning to be done there.
     
  21. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

    7,760
    3,486
    113
    Sep 4, 2010
    Maui, Hawaii
    I agree players are graded coming into the draft, but that doesn't mean that the people doing the grading know what they are doing. Perhaps if you will go to the post on all the draft picks of the Dolphins over the last 45 years, you will see how often bad players were drafted by the Dolphins based on a certain grade. The vast majority of those players over the last decade deserved a grade of "F".

    You are obviously high on Thomas and I am not. I liked Gray in college and while he may not be a great back in the NFL. I prefer him right now over Thomas. The coaches will make the final decision and because he was a second round draft choice last year, Thomas is likely to be given more of an opportunity to make the team than Gray, because he is merely an undrafted free agent.

    Perhaps Thomas will prove to be a better NFL running back then I think he will be. I just haven't been high on him since he was taken in the 2011 draft. Hopefully he can prove me wrong in 2012.
     
  22. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    I have an extremely hard time seeing Thomas not making the final roster. He fits much better in a zone scheme IMO.
     
  23. FanMarino

    FanMarino Season Ticket Holder

    2,906
    718
    0
    Nov 24, 2007
    Im actually NOT that high and sold on Thomas. I will see how he does in his 2nd season. Thats where he has no excuse to me if he fails to show up. I wont go overboard on Gray purely due to the fact where in the draft hes been taken and he hasnt taken a handoff in the NFL. just for those reasons alone. I hope Gray does well but Thomas has the advantage right now imo.
     
  24. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

    7,760
    3,486
    113
    Sep 4, 2010
    Maui, Hawaii
    I have no problem with the Dolphins keeping him on the final roster if he ends up being one of the top running backs in camp. I just hope they don't keep him and release a better back because Ireland doesn't want to admit he messed up another 2nd round draft pick.
     
    Da 'Fins likes this.
  25. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

    7,760
    3,486
    113
    Sep 4, 2010
    Maui, Hawaii
    I will agree that Thomas has the advantage right now because of where he was drafted and the fact Gray was not drafted at all. It is certainly much harder for an undrafted free agent to beat out a player who was drafted a year earlier in the second round. I just hope that Gray gets a fair shot to make the team and if he does and Thomas beats him out, I can live with that.
     
  26. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

    10,191
    4,187
    113
    Dec 3, 2007
    Bradenton,FL
    Eh. Its what I see. I just don't see him run with any power. When he runs into somebody, he simply is stopped there. Yes I seen him spin off a couple times and fall forward for a couple yards. But realistically, he should be bouncing off tackles and gaining extra yards. something he doesn't do. When someone gets his hands on him, he goes down. Power backs in the NFL bounce of sideways tackles and rarely run head up into tacklers. Something he did in those videos. He honestly reminds me of another #25. One already on our roster. Considering he runs like Reggie without the top end speed, doesn't bode well, regardless if hes 230 pounds or not.

    I think to many people, probably not you CK, look at his build and his weight, and assume hes a power back. He simply does not run like one. I am just giving my honest opinion on this guy.

    To anyone who thinks he is better then Thomas, that is absurd. Granted, he may better quickness, but Thomas has great feet as well. Thomas runs behind his pads much much better. I was not a fan of the Thomas pick when we made it, but to say he will not make the roster and Gray is better is ridiculous. There is absolutely 0 evidence as such.
     
  27. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

    10,191
    4,187
    113
    Dec 3, 2007
    Bradenton,FL

    What makes you like Gray over Thomas?
     
  28. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

    13,057
    8,875
    113
    Nov 26, 2007
    Hamilton, Ontario Canada
    Daniel Thomas looked VERY good his first couple games until the hamstring injury really flared up. Once that happened he became ineffective. As long as it's fully healed now and with a full camp he should break out quite nicely.
     
    Nappy Roots likes this.
  29. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    Now, in the real world, why would Ireland do that? How can anyone objectively think his ego overrules his keeping the best players? There have been numerous times since 2008 that we've doubled up on a position in the draft and the lower drafted player makes more of a contribution.
    2008, we took two DEs, and the 2nd one, Langford, was the one who played and contributed so well that after 4 seasons we couldn't afford to keep him. We took 2 guards, and the 2nd one, Donald Thomas, started over the higher drafted one, Shawn Murphy.
    2009: Same thing with Patrick Turner and Brian Hartline
    2010: When both Austin Spitler and AJ Edds were healthy and on the roster in 2011, he cut Edds who was taken 3 rounds higher.

    Ireland has done nothing for which you to rationalize your line of thinking that he'd keep Thomas, even if Gray was better, other than you always using anything you can come up with as means to attempt to denigrate his ability as a GM. It's quite sad really. Take heart though. Somewhere out there in Dolphinland, your predecessor here, DolfanJake, is probably giving you cyber high fives.
     
    dolfan22, Fin D, Nappy Roots and 5 others like this.
  30. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

    20,810
    8,965
    0
    Jan 7, 2008
    Hollywood, Florida
    I'm 100% in agreement with this. I was not impressed at all with the video provided. I don't see the quick feet or any explosive ability really.
     
  31. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    Daniel Thomas was the guy that did not actually break as many tackles as he was reputed to have done at K-State. I watched him constantly get tackled by DBs for maybe 1 or 2 yards after contact, and if he was being tackled by a linebacker, forget it...he was stoned for 0 yards after contact.

    The bottom line is the facts don't support many of the generalities being said in this thread.

    On the clips above I have 84 plays, with 27 tackles broken cleanly by contact (one every 3.1 touches). He averaged 3.7 yards after contact per play in total, but I have 300 yards after contact on 76 qualifying plays if you eliminate untouched runs and touchdowns where yards after contact are capped. That's more like an average of about 4 yards after contact per play. For comparison, Atlanta's Michael Turner broke 69 tackles on 334 touches this year (one every 4.8 touches). He averaged 3.0 yards after contact per run in total without eliminating plays.

    I only have 0 yards after contact (a.k.a. "stoned") recorded on 8 of the 74 plays, and only 1 yard after contact on an additional 6 plays. That means on 80 percent of Jonas Gray's qualifying touches, he created at least 2 extra yards after contact. On approximately 50 percent of his touches he created 3 or more extra yards after contact.

    On about 50 percent of his plays, Jonas Gray required more than one tackler to gang tackle him and bring him to the ground. About 2 out of 3 times when he was brought down by a single player, it was either a defensive lineman or a linebacker. Most of the rest were safeties. Eliminating plays where he broke tackles, he was gang tackled by 3 or more players 18 times and still created 38 yards after contact.

    People are going to see what they are going to see, when they watch players. That's part of what makes player evaluation so unique. However, the facts are what they are.
     
    dolfan32323 and Da 'Fins like this.
  32. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

    20,459
    14,210
    113
    Apr 2, 2008
    Coral Springs, FL
    I think it was more that he wasn't worth keeping at that price. Though he's making 24 Million over 4 years, he's only making $2 Million this year with St. Louis. That contract looks heavily back-loaded. I think if the Dolphins really wanted to keep him, they would have. I know he wanted to stay here, just by what he's said on Twitter in that past.

    I was a little surprised Gray wasn't drafted. I thought he'd be a 5th/6th round type just from watching some of his games this year. He averaged about 7 ypc this year with 12 TD's. Not bad. (I know that doesn't mean dick in college football, but it's not like he had a horrible year)
     
  33. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

    27,364
    31,261
    113
    Apr 6, 2008
    I think part of the issue with what people see is that Gray seemed to improve after the early games. Early on in the video there appeared to be more instances where he would stop moving his feet. Later in the video, he seemed to more consistently keep driving his legs after contact. In my experience, most people tend to go with their first impression and are loath to adjust it.
     
    dolfan22 likes this.
  34. PhinsRDbest

    PhinsRDbest Transform and Transcend

    8,365
    4,211
    113
    Jan 5, 2010
    the next dimension
    I say PUP the guy, by the time he is ready they should know how Messam and Thomas fit into the equation. Messam may not make the team and Thomas may not make it the whole season. So this puts them in a great situation if somebody gets hurt by mid-season.
     
  35. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

    20,810
    8,965
    0
    Jan 7, 2008
    Hollywood, Florida
    The thing is that I believe if you were to do a thorough comparison with other college running backs you would see similar stats of YA-Contact. I'd even venture to say most major backs would be better. The alarming thing I see is a lack of balance after contact. He doesn't keep his feet well. That is more important to me than falling one yard forward.
     
  36. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    I think you hit the nail on the head.

    The first 15 touches are his games against South Florida and Michigan State. I did not record a single broken tackle in those two games. I had 38 yards after contact on the 15 plays, no touchdowns, and on 5 of the 15 plays he was brought down by a single defensive back. In fact, on 12 of the 15 plays period, he was successfully brought down by only one defensive player.

    It isn't until his 17th play of the first video that you start to see some wow factor with that incredible run he had against Pittsburgh. Starting there and then with the Purdue game, that's when you see a significant increase in broken tackles and yards after contact. Excluding the USF and MSU games I show 4.4 yards after contact per qualifying play, with 27 broken tackles on 65 qualifying plays.

    As I said initially, he got better as the year went on because of that turning point against USF...and you're right, I think that does end up giving some people a bad perception because the initial look isn't the final product.
     
    dolfan22 likes this.
  37. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    Except I just showed that he only falls forward for 0 or 1 yards on less than 20% of his runs. You're exaggerating and misleading people to try and prove a point.

    I don't know that I would find the same outcomes with other backs...but it would be an interesting study nonetheless.
     
  38. Da 'Fins

    Da 'Fins Season Ticket Holder Staff Member Club Member

    34,739
    47,801
    113
    Dec 19, 2007
    Birmingham, AL
    Great analysis. I didn't go into that kind of detail but that fits with what I perceived. I especially love his thickness in his thighs. Though he's not the instinctive runner (not many are) he reminds me a bit of Emmit Thomas and Ray Rice (who reminded me a lot of Thomas when in college). Not saying he's at that level, but there are some reminders there of that player.
     
  39. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

    20,810
    8,965
    0
    Jan 7, 2008
    Hollywood, Florida
    I wasn't saying he falls forward for one yard every play. I'm saying he stumbles forward for a FEW extra yards every play. In college to me, that means absolutely nothing. I'd much rather use the eyeball test and ask myself: Does he seem to have vision? Does he have quick feet? Does he run with balance? There are way too many variables for a stat like yards after contact to mean too much in college football. Unless the number is jaw dropping of course. I'd almost guarantee you'd find similar stats among most college RB's....but until someone actually does it obviously I can't say.

    Watching the video he fails just about every one of those tests....in my eyes. You could very well be right, it's just the way -I- see his game.
     
  40. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    111,652
    67,546
    113
    Dec 20, 2007
    I think when you see a back at 230 lbs who continues to bouce plays to the outside with good lateral agility and balance, then have the speed to turn the corner on defenders continuously, then the gear to house it from 80 years, you gotta take notice, if you can get him for nothing in UDFA, you sign him..

    When I read the thread title, I try to keep the player in context with that fact, and use some perspective,relatively speaking.bottom line for me, is he's got some serious talent to do some of the things he does, so the signing is a good one, just like I felt Fuller was an excellent signing.
     

Share This Page