Dolphins trade up, 4th round... Lamar Miller, RB Miami.

I don't think he could have been dominate in this system. I don't think Marshall is a WCO WR.

I think Marshall excels with a gunslinger QB. I think he's a good improvisor and needs to be tuned into his QB, ala Cutler. Marshall is a broad sword. WCO needs scalpels.

 

Yeah I find two in one year, and it was last year and decided that was enough. If its so ridiculous I shouldn't have been able to find some so easy.

 

God this is assinine.....

It's not about replacing player X's production over 1 year in a sub par offense.
It's about replacing a talent level.

Even if Bess puts up 1000 yards next year it won't mean a thing as.... I'll try to explain this as easily as possible..... IT WILL BE A DIFFERENT OFFENSE.

Your stats are selective in your argument as well.
Marshall was responsible for double the production of any other WR in this offense.
I guess that means nothing.

 

It's an easily attained level of production so you say.

Where are the rest?

 

The Philbin version of the WCO is a lot more vertical than lets say the Walsh WCO. That is why I say it would be a fit.

 

Talent level without the matching production is not reality. Which is what I said to you before. Talent without production is useless, considering production is how you quantify talent.

Its not like last year was a down year. It was better than the year before and more or less par for the course for Marshall. He could have had more TDs, but he dropped a few.

 

I guess I'm not seeing Marshall as a vertical threat.

 

Saying he was not productive when he led all WR's in receptions by far and doubled the yardage and TD production of the next closest WR on the roster.
In essence he was our entire passing game. Ignoring that is not exactly paying attention to reality.

You don't want to give me any more examples of rookie TE's achieving 1200 yards and 6 TD's because to my knowledge it has never happened before last year.
In fact those numbers have only been attained 11 times total in the last 10 years by any TE including experienced Vets.
So you can see that expecting a rookie TE to "easily" match that production is pretty absurd.

There really isn't anything else to be discussed.
Reality has been delivered.

 

Fin-D I have to disagree about the talent being meaningless without production. If that were true the NFL draft would be a lot different. It's possible to be extremely talented and not produce because of other circumstances.

Whether it is easy or hard to replace Marshall doesnt matter now though. We have to do it either way.

 

you let me know when any WR or TE we drafted this year makes a pro bowl because marshell made one last year on one of the worst offensive teams in the history of the NFL.

 

I love the Egnew pick too. But I am just talking about value here.

Don't know want to tell you. That's how I feel, I don't like Tannehill at 8. Not convinced he turns into anything more than an average starter in this league.
I sincerely hope I'm dead wrong about this, but I think 3-4 years from now we will still be looking for our "QB of the future."

 

We have no way of know that. You could be right.

 

Thats what everyone said about another UM RB named Frank Gore. He turned out ok

 

Not as bad a Napolean McCallum. One of the worst ever. Youtube it if you have the stomach.

 

I think it's fairly hard to imagine a 3rd round rookie TE doing it. Not impossible, but hard to imagine.
But I think what kicked this whole debate off was someone saying "Egnew easily replaces Marshall."
1200 yds and 6 TD is ALOT to expect out of a 3rd round rookie TE.

 

Technically you haven't found any. None of the guys mention so far were rookies.
Just saying.
I think it's a little far-fetched to expect Egnew to come in and put up the numbers Marshall had last season with one of Matt Moore, Ryan Tannehill or David Garrard throwing him the ball.

 

I do, to me you are going to pay for a Qb, there is no avoiding that fact of the NFL, when even Brandon Weedon went off the board at 22, a younger, more athletic Qb who knows our offense already is going to cost us and it did.

Value, in the draft, is such a fraud though PSG, all that matters is whether or not the guy can play, the rd is unimportant. Which is not to say you cannot overpay for a player, but a Qb in the top ten is a better risk then a OL at fifteen imo as if the Qb works out you more quickly recapture the expense of acquiring them.

 

I have watched some Miller's HL.... wow, very impressive, anyway, anyone knows something more about the injury concerns? I mean, watching the guy, it seems really strange that he dropped down so much without a strong reason

 

You're right.
And I guess my problem is I don't think Tannehill will become much more than average, which skews my "value" perception even more.

 

That is right, my bad.

 

Lol at anyone suggesting Marshall is easily replaceable, by a rookie TE no less. My my, people love to live in their own personal realities they carve out for themselves.

 

When the franchise you love is in the state it's in, it's easier for some people to cope that way.

 

It's not more ridiculous than people who lost their **** when Marshall was traded and then acted like his production here was so monumental that our need at WR was now as great as QB.

 

I hear ya there.

 

I lost my **** when Marshall was traded because it create yet another gaping home in the roster. A hole that hasn't be properly addressed yet.
Oh wait, this offense doesn't need a #1 WR. My bad.

 

I maintain, if Marshall was here we still had a hole at #1 WR. He didn't produce like a number one for us.

 

Same here, what is done is done though.

I like some of our bargan bin Wr pickups though, and let's be honest here, we are up against the cap as it is, keeping Marshall would have made things even worse imo.

 

I laugh at all the belly aching over not taking a wide receiver high. It is amazing that fans continued to be fooled into thinking that wide receivers are anything more than a shiny hood ornament.

"At least Green Bay has Jordy Nelson."

Let's take a look:

Jordy going into the 2008 draft:
6025, 217 lbs, 4.51 forty, 31" VJ, 10'03" BJ, 4.35 20 yard shuttle, 7.03 3 cone drill

First three years in the NFL: 100 receptions, 1268 yards, 12.68 YPC, 6 TDs

Brian Hartline going into the 2009 draft:
6015, 195 lbs, 4.52 forty, 34.5" VJ, 10'00" BJ, 4.12 20 yard shuttle, 6.65 3 done drill

First three years in the NFL: 109 receptions, 1670 yards, 15.3 YPC, 5 TDs

So, now tell me exactly why Brian Hartline will be unable to emerge in his 4th season the way Jordy Nelson did? There is no physical reason why Hartline cannot produce like Jordy Nelson in this offense. Heck, he outproduced Jordy during their respective firs three years, and that was in an offense that was not conducive to throwing the football with piss poor quarterback play.

 

Because he plays for our team?

 

Yeah, because he has been so difficult to replace in Denver. Oh, wait. Denver replaced him with a journeyman that actually outproduced him in that offense.

 

Hello? Pot? I would like you to meet....Kettle!

Marshall is a very good receiver. When he wants to be. Which was a 50/50 proposition here. Hartline made as many spectacular catches as marshal did. Jordy Nelson I heard brought up, sure he is good, but how was he rated coming out? KB already showed his 1st three year stats to hartlines. Why is it Brian will regress not flourish in this new offense? Greg jennings wasnt a stud until he proved he was a stud. He wasnt a name that panned as thought.

Gates is in his second year, last preseason we were drooling over him. Then he wasnt given as much of a shot and then we find out he was injured. Was the injury an excuse? we will find out.

BJ Coleman in this offense could be good, Bess is great over the middle. Egnew will exploit the seam.

Acting like teh sky is falling is a little drastic. Sure I am one that wanted us to get a top receiver, but I applaud Irish for sticking to his board. This fan base can be funny, with overwhelming numbers stating something like "well the good teams like NE GB Pitt etc all draft BPA instead of reaching for nedd, they dont go after guys at positions if they dont feel they are warranted at that spot." Well Irish does that and he is bashed by some. So to me what you are saying is more to teh point of "Irish should take the BPA at that position as I have determined it to be".

Not bashing or trying to put words in anyones mouth nor trying to bash opinions. Not saying you were trying to say any of that just that sometimes it seems that when players we like alot are not the picks, we think who was picked was a bad pick. For instance I thought Antonio Allen would have been great value at 215. But In MY Opinion, Irish went by his board and stayed true. I respect and applaud that, he thought outside the box. I am not sure of all teh picks, but I liked the approach. Irish will live or die by these picks, I am glad knowing his rear is on teh line that he didnt ply it safe.

 

I believe the argument is based on the amount of targets relative to production, the argument is based on what did he do with all the balls that were thrown to him besides catch them, a lot of players can catch footballs, but yac and scoring is key relative to the amount of targets..I thought the production was not proportionate to the amount of passes thrown to him..It showed to me that he is not an elite payer..

 

The only thing I could find is that he had a very low football IQ. And obviously his shoulder was in question.

 

I guess time will tell.

 

for the answer

on another forum I saw some Cane fans saying that his shoulder is really messed up and that is why he went pro, because he knew he couldn't go through another college season and he wanted monetize in some way.... hoping it is not true

time will tell

 

Marshall had a solid amount of 20+ yard catches last season. No one else on the roster has that ability, not even close.

Whether people think he was overrated or not, we're gonna see a drop off at the WR position because of his absence.

 

You sure about that?

I think Hartline and Gates could duplicate that without too much of a struggle.

 

you're almost on the same page as I am except you seem a little high on hartline. Jordy Nelson is better talent-wise AND the packers also have a ton of WR talent. Donald Driver was pretty damn good for years and took reps away from nelson. Hartline has been number two on the depth chart longer than nelson was in GB because GB actually has talent at other spots on their roster. The packers also have this guy named greg jennings, not sure if you've heard of him. Lets not forget that the pack also have finley. While finley had a down year last season, opposing defenses had to game plan around him just for sheer ability.

lets recap. Nelson is better talen wise than hartline. by how much is up for debate but I say alot. Better route runner, WAY better after the catch. Nelson has more help and talent around him at TE, WR and especialy quarterback. This is why I don't think hartline will have this super break out season. I've always been a fan of hartline the same way I love Bess as a player but I just don't ever see them being this special talent in the NFL the way other dolphin fans do.

Everything you said about marshell I 100 percent agree on. Great talent, horrible attitude. My problem with marshell was we invested in him and gave up WAAAAY too quickly and for way less than what I would have wanted.

 

not sure what games you watch but marshell is pretty nasty after the catch and draws comparisons to TO (good and bad) for it. When you're catching balls in double coverage because you've got a horrible quarterback playing beind a nonexistent right side of the line with below average WR talent around you can't expect a WR to break multiple tackles every play for his YAC. Watch some of the all time greats at the position like jerry rice. Dude doesn't break tackles for his YAC but he can catch the ball in space, partly because he was a FAR FAR FAR superior route runner than marshell will ever be and partly because he played with a HoF QB(two of the actually) and TONS of talent around him. John Taylor, Clark, Craig, a young TO etc. Point is this is a case where you can't point to stats as the end all to say if a player is productive. Football is the ultimate team sport for a reason and this, with the reasoning i demonstrated above, is a prime example of that.