Exactly! I feel he would still be there at our second rounder. Cant really think of a team really in need of a qb besides us. Fleener with our traded down #1 then Weeden and a wr in the second. Revamp the offense in the first two rounds.
I never said he was Marino either. I said he had a similar play style. They're both natural passers that move around similarly in the pocket. They both are also considered to be poor running QBs and are/were projected to go in the late first to early second by most "experts". (Only the fan sites are still saying third round, but they're always late). Basically, as several posters had commented before, he looks like Marino while he plays. He doesn't, however, have anywhere near the release and I don't see the same velocity (although CK's measurements may dispute that).
The draft always has unexpected picks. Denver trading up for Tebow was a surprise and why the heck is Philly having Tannehill in for a private workout? Trying to trade back just increases the likelihood that we'll end up with no potential franchise QB on the roster.
I think we should start a club/campaign.... use your tag "bleedin for weeden" anyone who has seen this guy play has to drool. Given the longevity of qbs esp wth new rules, love Weeden in the second.
Keep saying same thing but especially when #20 could be Fleener, and next two could be Weeden and either Curry, Marvin Jones, maybe Jefferies etc
IMO Weedon is a first round talent. Weedon has franchise QB potential. Weinke was a fourth talent who was unlikely to ever be an NFL starter. I don't know how you want to describe Marino. When he was coming out he was coming off of a terrible year. There were drug rumors and people criticized his mechanics. He went from a top five pick (most people had him behind only Elway the year before) to a late first round pick and the fifth QB off the board. The skills were undeniable though. He was a natural passer with great pocket awareness. That's where I see the comparison. But Marino also had that lightning release. That's something Weedon doesn't have.
I think instead of talking about what Weeden can and cannot do, we should start talking about how he fits into what Philbin wants in a QB. Does his skill set even match what they want? And if not then its probably pointless using up so many key strokes on the issue.
He's a timing passer and Philbin runs a timing based offense. But Philbin also likes mobility in his QB when things break down. Weedon moves well in the pocket, but he doesn't provide that escape ability like Rodgers does.
We've seen every single solitary throw he's ever made at OSU and Chris has just written the most in depth scouting report you'll ever read. But you carry on with your KFFL coverage and then tell Rafael, one of the most trusted QB watchers around that he's "probably seen a few games on You Tube". Seriously, have a word with yourself.
I think the mobility outside the pocket is the key issue. If its greatly valued then they are probably not looking at him. I guess we'll learn soon enough.
It's hard to say. Philbin has mentioned his QB skill priorities a couple of times. Both times he mentioned decision making, accuracy and velocity right away. The second time he mentioned mobility right away, but the first time there was some debate whether he was saying it as a priority or as an after-thought among the less important skills. I thought he mentioned it as a priority, but CK didn't agree.
Rafael began with a belligerent remark saying I "guessed" on a comparison, so I implied the same with the Marino talk. And I'm not interested in arguing wich guy who writes for a website is right or wrong. If anyone was THAT accurate in their analysis then they would be getting paid very well for their talents. And let's face it, NFL execs and their scouts are wrong a lot themselves. I posted the KFFL report to show anyone who was assuming I was making shnit up otherwise. And Please translate what having a word with myself means, I'm one of those idiots who thought Blaine Gabbert was better than Andy Dalton.
Never said just here. " people " around the league, talking heads etc, were hailing Kolb as the best available FA QB. This year its tannehill and now weeden, lots of people talking both of them up, talking heads, media, etc and this year will be the same thing, they both will not be very good in the NFL. Now, thats my opinion and as some here would like people to write an essay on why they feel that way, I am not, plain and simple, after RGIII and Luck, the rest are also rans.
Kolb was the best available FA QB. Neither Tannehill or Weeden are FA QBs. You are not making any sense.
I know that, still a terrible comparison. Why not mention the quarterbacks that lived up to the hype like Andy Dalton.
Its an in exact science, nobody could really predict how good Dalton would be. There is so much that goes into it also. ability, surroundings, a little bit of good fortune etc. if Andy Dalton switches situations with Gabbert how does it play out? Hard to say, the good news is Philbin may be a QB friendly type of coach.
I think you're overstating that. He was considered the best FA, but there were a lot of questions. There was hardly any hype. In fact, I would say that Arizona was generally criticized more than praised for that trade. It's the same with Tannehill and Weedon. you're basically seeing a mixed bag. Everybody pretty much agrees that Tannehill has elite skills, but they're mixed on how high his value should be (top 10 or later in the first) b/c he won't be ready to start immediately. With Weedon the bag is even more mixed b/c people tend to be focused on the age. Although every single expert seems to agree that he is a natural passer. What you tend to see every year is that the teams don't really get their scouts all together and finalize draft grades until about now. The reports up until now were mostly generated by fan sites. So people see guys like Rivers being mentioned in the first and they think they shot up the boards. Reality is that the fan sites don't grade players like the NFL does.
I'm not opposed to Weeden. I'm all for whomever Philbin, Sherman, and Ireland have a conviction about. And CK, I loved the read. You make a convincing case. My question about Weeden is purely in the abstract. Ans it is purely about age. How do you fairly compare one 28 year old College QB, against a history of hundreds of college QBs aged 21-24? CK cited maturity, consistency, professionalism and confidence quite a lot without acknowledging that maybe those characteristics are not as impressive in a 28 year old QB who worked 5 years as a professional with the Yankees. College QBs are graded on a curve when it comes to how they will succeed in the NFL. And scouts and GMs still get it wrong. I don't know how you grade a 28 year old college QB with the same curve a 23 year old gets.
If we were interested in Weeden I'd want a trade down, pick up a WR or Fleeny (Not a Jeffries fan) and try to land Weeden near the top of round 2. It will really be interesting to see if Weeden becomes a top level NFL QB and all-pro. That's essentially where CK rated him. I like Weeden. I'd consider him a bottom of round 1 talent. I could care less about the age factor. The positive, NFL teams will likely downgrade him because of this. So, he would be a great pick up in the 2nd round.
Only half right. I cited CONFIDENCE a lot, and I may have cited consistency once or twice, but I'm not even sure I used the words "maturity" or "professionalism" in the entire piece. If I did a search function I'm not sure I would find those words. I'm not sure what confidence as a quarterback or consistency have to do with him being 28 years old. I see plenty of 28 year old QBs in the NFL that don't show the same traits he shows. Confidence as it pertains to the quarterback position has nothing to do with age. I see NFL veterans that don't display the confidence in the system or confidence in teammates that I see out of Weeden. And I don't even need to say that confidence in your arm has NOTHING to do with age. I do not, and never have bought this notion that he had unfair advantages being in his mid-20's in college while others were younger. I think he said it best himself. Mentally, the maturity and experience in baseball helped him deal with some of the ups and down perhaps, but that's the extent of it. I find it borderline absurd to suggest that a man playing only his FOURTH season of football games in his entire life had a huge advantage over all the guys around him just because he was a few years older. I think people overthink this. If he's got advantages right now in Oklahoma State they're not going to go away all the sudden. He's displaying, right now, as we speak, exactly all the traits you want in an NFL quarterback. People pretend like he's not going to get better. How the hell does that make sense? If you're 40 years old and you go to college, are you not going to learn a damn just because you're 40? Even if you're being exposed to subjects you've never been exposed to before, learning things you've never learned before, you're not going to learn them because you're 40 years old? That's absurd. He will be exposed to things in the NFL that he's never been exposed to before and he will learn them, he will acclimate. And so yes, he will get better.
In honor of this thread, I submit to you... In The Garden Of Eden..or Weeden. [video=youtube;noAVrd8Ybcc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noAVrd8Ybcc[/video]
Exactly, It sounds like Dallas is drooling over Poe. Trade #8 for their 1st and second rounders. Fleener in the first, then Weeden, leaving a second and two thirds to fill holes at WR, DE/OLB and perhaps S or CB
Are we so sure that Weeden will drop that far? I'm all for trading down and grabbing Fleener and shooting for Weeden - but I just dont feel like he'll be available. Though, if the Browns grab Tannehill I suppose I could see it as a possiblity that hes still on the board. What are other thoughts on this? I just see a repeat of last year where teams reach a bit (ie locker etc) just to try and find THAT guy. Is the fact that Weeden is older a virtual gaurantee that he'll drop to the 2nd since noone will want to reach for a player they already wont want on a bench? Just wondering what the more informed are feeling on that. The more time goes on the more I feel that we should use 1/2 on a receiver of some sort and a QB if possible. I'd like to think theres some 3rd/4th round talent for an above average pass rusher to help wake out. And I'm just absolutely hoping Philbin can fix the line with what we have on the books already...because another OL draft will ruin the anticipation for the season a bit for me... haha.
Hey CK. I want you to know I was just expressing my doubts about any 28 year old QB, I wasn't out to attack your article. I thought it was incredible. You may not have used the words "maturity" or "professionalism" but I came away impressed by those characteristics in Weeden through your article. Just not as impressed as I'd be if he was 22. I think that when you are the oldest guy in the locker room, many of the traits that make a great QB just come easier. Leadership, consistency, work ethic. And Weeden isn't just older, he had the benefit of working as a PROFESSIONAL athlete for 5 years. If a 22 year old QB was instrumental in the hiring and teaching of a new offensive coordinator, you can't tell me you wouldn't be more impressed. With all that said, I'm not at all against drafting Weeden. But the book on older college QBs isn't thick enough to say that characteristics that SHOULD impress you in a 22 year old should equally impress you in a guy 6 years older and in his prime. Scouts, coaches, GMs and even fans are taking educated guesses when projecting how a college player will perform in the pros. It is an inexact science. But that science is based on data on thousands and thousands of players who enter the pros at an average age of 22. I'm just skeptical in applying that inexact science to a 28 year old outlier.
That's the thing. I'd love to have Fleener and Weedon, but anybody who has ever watched the draft should know that unexpected picks happen just about every year. You can look at every team and guess what their likely to take, but no matter how much info you gather it will always be a risk. There is no way that Weedon is a virtual guarantee to drop that far. I think this draft has a ton of WR talent. I see multiple options to fill that need in the 3rd and 4th round. This draft is so deep at WR that I see that talent in those rounds as comparable to what you would get in the second in most years.
Impressed or not, it would seem those are traits you'd want your QB to have regardless of his age. I agree it would be more impressive if a 22 yr old QB had them, that's not the point, to me....to me the point is that's another positive attribute to check off the list. A leader is a leader, it doesn't really matter in the overall evaluation process when the guy became a leader.
Okay...that was my same feeling. Theres certainly a real chance that it could work out to trade down, grab fleener, and still have Weeden - but it seems like a huge gamble to me. I'd love to grab a QB in the first (trade down - preferably with a trade down of course...for Tannehill or Weeden if possible), and grab the best receiving option available in the 2nd... Of course, if theres a hell of a passrusher in the 2nd who has dropped more than expected, I'd like even more if we got them and used our third towards a receiver due to the depth this draft. If Tannehill is gone before 8, and the FO isn't necessarily in love with Weeden, I'd be happy with a trade back. Even more so if we can still grab Weeden and they like him enough to roll the dice. I just cant see using a first rounder, but then again - what do I know? I wish I knew more to speak to exact players as far as DE/OLB goes, but I cant really say WHO I'd like to see. Regardless, this is going to be a very interesting draft. I usually find it hard to have any interest, but this year I'm finding myself gitty in anticipation.
If Weeden gets past Cleveland @22....he could free fall. He's not exactly going to go to a team and sit a year or 2. Would Seattle draft him? I doubt that high. Arizona? Ehhh maybe. This IMO is why he will fall easily into the second if Cleveland doesn't pick him at 22. If Miami takes him at 43 I won't be pissed but I also don't believe #13 will be slapped on his back either.
I hear what you're saying. Yes, maturity and professionalism are two things you see in Brandon Weeden and it doesn't seem all that coincidental given his background and age. I get that. What I don't get is, why should that be discounted? Those are not things you can just assume a 22 year old will develop, if he doesn't already display them. If he displays them already, that's great. It takes the guesswork out and that's fantastic. But I consider these things to be personality traits, not some age-right. You know the phrase, "if they don't bite as puppies, they don't bite"? If your guy is going to develop into this kind of professional, this kind of leader, this kind of hard worker...you're generally going to have seen that long before a guy's 22nd birthday. He should definitely be showing it by the time he's 22 years old. If he hasn't, you can't assume he'll just get there. That's how you get a Vince Young. All that matters is that Weeden has shown those traits, you know they're there. That's the positive, that's what matters from an asset valuation standpoint. You're right to emphasize how this is an inexact science. I disagree that this kind of thinking can control your draft strategy, though. Basiclaly you're arguing for strict prototyping. If it doesn't fit a strict prototype, it's not possible to understand or predict, therefore buyer beware. I saw someone put it very well, the argument against this kind of thinking. I'll try and paraphrase. In the NFL, you don't get unlimitied whacks at the bat, to where your 57% margin as opposed to a 55% margin is going to make you the superior team. That may work in a volume business like Las Vegas, but in the NFL you get far fewer bites of the apple, making the EXCEPTIONS a much bigger part of the game. In the end, I can't figure out why we can't just look at him, look at his throws, look at his intangibles, and just value them. Why even bring the age into THAT part of it? The age has it's appropriate place in the valuation, based on how many years you can expect him to give you, but why are you letting it bleed into the talent and intangibles portion of the grade? Will his NFL passer rating be adjusted according to his age? Will the team's final score be reduced by some amount based on his age? When he tries to stay at the headquarters to do extra filmwork on the next opponent, will he be kicked out of the building because it's not impressive unless he's 22 years old?
I know after a lot of hours, it's now about your gut about the player, after really watching this dude, I've reduced so many risks as it pertains to the qb position, I just feel really confident in my own personal evaluation that I would love him to match up with our great offensive coaches, let his natural ability, effortless mechanics, and great arm talent to just take over, all the while creating value for our team by adding an extra high round draft pick to the table, and using our evaluation skills to not only hit on Weeden, but hit on the other player that we could get by going with Weeden.
But it is still a matter of growth. What impresses a scout in a college QB impresses them because they are still raw and green. With pro coaches and time that 22 year old will be THAT much better when he hits his prime at 28. A 28 year old rookie is potentially past his prime by the time he has adapted to the pro game. What you hope from Weeden is that he has the unique ability to learn faster, AND that his physical prime will also last longer than other QBs. If Weeden is cut from the same cloth as Marino, as many have suggested and Ryan Tannehill is a better Jake Plummer. I'd still rather have 9 years of Marino than 15 years of Jake Plummer. But it is still a gamble, either way you cut it.
