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Jeff Fisher's thoughts on Ireland

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Rocky Raccoon, Mar 27, 2012.

  1. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    (The other thing I wanted to emphasize again)
    It's very possible that Jeff Ireland's eye for talent based on what Parcells wanted in a player [based on Parcells's vision] might not be as good as Jeff's eye for talent based on what he, himself, is looking for and based on his OWN vision of the team. Therefore, anyone criticizing the 2008-2010 draft would be wise to keep that in mind IMO.


    An easy analogy would be an outstanding interior decorator with a great natural eye for modern design who's paid to redo an office Victorian style.
    Sure, he's great at what he does in general but that doesn't mean the Victorian office based on his client's desires will turn out as awe-inspiring as if it were his own office done modern style based on his own vision.


    Considering it's human nature to enjoy doing what we're good at and have a natural talent for, I don't find it coincidental that the type of 2011 players Ireland drafted and signed in FA seem to be of a different mold than under Parcells.
     
  2. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    Yes, but I also think the decision to keep Sparano after the Harbaugh thing played a role. They gave him an extension, but I think players saw right through it. Sparano was still regarded as a lame-duck coach. You could say the season was doomed as soon as that flight landed in California. Maybe that's unfair to say, maybe not. Regardless, it cast a shadow. Beyond that though, bad QB and inconsistent O-Line play, along with a horrible Red Zone running game and failure to pickup first downs in short-yardage situations were also big factors. The defense was particularly horrible in the first half as well.

    Overall, the roster as a whole lacks impact players. Playmakers. This is another reason I dislike Ireland. He drafts safe. Not all of that his COMPLETELY his fault, as playmakers are usually found at the top of the draft. Then again, when you construct a roster to be mediocre, and trade down in the draft (or take Lineman), you're not gonna get a whole lot of guys like that.
     
  3. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I don't think the coach cares as much about the team as he does his ability to carry out what he wants with it. IMO Ross's desire for offensive excitement might've been a deterrent for Fisher..... or at least made him apprehensive.
     
  4. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    For me, going 0-7 then 6-3 IMPLIES the that players weren't untalented at the start of the year and then became talented later on. Now maybe I'm wrong. Again, though, that's why I want to wait until this year is over, before i pass judgement.
     
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  5. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    At 0-7, you know the seasons over. Pressure off. Also, they hit a VERY easy part of the schedule. KC, Washington, Buffalo (X2), Oakland, etc. The lost to any and all solid teams they played; Dallas, Philadelphia, New England, etc.

    The defense wasn't horrible. I believe they were 6th in PPG, which is solid. You'd like to see them force more turnovers (when they won the TO battle last season, they usually won) overall not too bad.

    Unfortunately, it's the offensive side of the ball that wins in the NFL. A great defense alone isn't good enough anymore. This is why Parcells failed here. He thought a good defense + good running game + Game Manager at QB = Success. It did for one season, but it's not sustainable. If Ireland can realize this, he might have a chance. I hope he does, because he's not the worst talent evaluator I've ever seen, he just has an outdated philosophy.
     
  6. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I see evidence Ireland did see that by taking Moore last year, because I don't think Moore is a Parcells type QB. I don't know enough to say if Moore will ever be more than he is. I do however think its encouraging that Philbin apparently thinks he's serviceable. Again, we'll see.
     
  7. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Question: Did anyone here expect a 1st time GM to not make any mistakes during his training period under Parcells or when he was finally given full control?

    Same question posed regarding a 1st time owner. Personally, I expected both to make mistakes, but I care more about how they bounce back from those mistakes. We all know that overcoming obstacles, learning from mistakes, and enduring crisis can often show us what a person's true meddle & value is.

    Where some people see our team's crisis as a reason to immediately fire Jeff Ireland, I see it as an opportunity to find out if he's truly the type of man that Parcells initially had the confidence in to groom as his heir to run the organization.
     
  8. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    So? Then that would mean every terrible team should be capable of finishing the season on a win streak, which doesn't happen.
    Terrible teams finish as terrible teams just as our '07 team finished 1-15.
    I don't care what the reason is; finishing 6-3 is finishing 6-3. Players don't develop special powers after an initial losing streak that allow a 6-3 finish.

    If you're good enough to finish 6-3 (with wins over 2 division foes and a near win over the 3rd), then you should be capable of starting the season with a winning record as well. Not doing so is an indictment of the coaches, not the guy who helped field the team.
     
  9. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    This is all coach speech. Publicly what is he supposed to say? Hes a real prick? The NFL is a small circle and who knows next year when and who you might have to be nice to in order to get a paycheck.
     
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  10. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    Because they weren't as bad as 0-7 and they weren't as good as 6-3. Hence, they were 6-10. See how that works? Mediocre. Just like the two previous seasons.
     
  11. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    If we really want to focus on the nitty-gritty of it all, who were the players MOST responsible for the 6-3 turn around?
    It was the defense, much of which Ireland brought in (or kept via the franchise tag), and it was Bush & Moore on offense, 2 more of Ireland's players.


    Who were MOST responsible for the 0-7 start?
    1. The head coach Parcells brought in. If Sparano were successful, we wouldn't have been in a lame duck coaching season to begin with.
    2. The offensive coordinator Parcells brought in whom Ireland had to replace during a year with a shortened offseason. Henning's forced retirement had a direct impact on the start of 2011.


    I'd also say Ireland's hired coaches had something to do with our 6-3 finish. People complained that Ireland must be clueless for making a WR coach the new QB coach. I remember people being like, "This is further indictment that Ireland has no idea what he's doing and will ruin the team.", but what instead happened? Matt Moore surprises virtually everyone, and Karl Dorrell was subsequently hired by Houston as their future QB coach. Apparently Ireland saw something that others didn't, namely the FANS, but yet again he was prematurely criticized for a decision despite not yet playing out. I recall the same mentality regarding Brian Daboll--- "Ireland sucks for bringing in an OC who ran one of the worst offenses in the NFL; we're doomed; he's clueless!". Daboll ended up being a solid fit, an obvious upgrade over Henning, and IMO showed that he's an up and coming OC whom we would've happily kept if not for hiring an OC to be our new head coach.
     
  12. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box


    Except Manning and Harbough knew where they were going way ahead of time. Ross did a good job of getting them to at least listen.
     
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  13. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    They did?
     
  14. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    Sure they did!! Unless you just freely dismiss the fact that they met with both of them? Both of them knew where they wanted to go. Miami was never in play so how do you continue to harp on loosing them? I say so what as long as Ross keeps trying to hire the right people and to hire the right people, you might go thru a few first...
     
  15. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Gotchya. So they played at the same level during the 6-3 second half of the season as they did the 0-7 start? Yeah, ok.

    I could take your same holed logic and use it against you by simply extrapolating it out further. "Because Houston wasn't as bad as 6-10 (2010) and they weren't as good as 10-6 (2011). Hence, they were 16-16. See how that works? Mediocre. Just like the previous 4 years (31-33)."
    Actually, based on your logic, the 0-16 Lions should still be a lousy 0-16 caliber team..... and the 10-6 2010 Bucs should still be a 10-6 caliber team rather than the 4-12 of 2011. 16 games is sufficient time for actual change to occur. If we're talking about 4 games, you might an argument.



    When adding in new variable such as new players, new coaching, a lame duck HC, and a shortened offseason, it's quite possible to have a team that doesn't play to its potential during the first half of the season. In fact, it's more likely that the SECOND half of the season best represents of what kind of team they truly are.
     
  16. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Thank you for telling us what Ross was actually thinking.
    I'm so glad we have such a reliable source who knows Ross personally to pass on such insight. {yawn}
     
  17. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Manning knew immediately that he was going to Denver? Harbaugh for sure was going to SF instead of staying at stanford?
     
  18. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    If Harbaugh were set on staying at Stanford, he'd still be at Stanford.
    He was likely set on the idea, "If I like what I see from SF, that's where my future will be."
     
  19. Ozzy

    Ozzy Premium Member Luxury Box

    It was pretty well documented that Harbough wanted to stay in California, and Denver was Mannings first, and longest visit! Don't you think they went right to the places they wanted? Or do you wish to just blame Ross and Ireland for not getting them?
     
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  20. jw3102

    jw3102 season ticket holder

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    So if the Dolphins finish below 500 again next season, are you going to blame the coach or Ireland? As much as I have stated for over a year that I wanted Ireland fired. I would certainly be willing to admit I was wrong and that Ireland is a better GM than I give credit for if the Dolphins go 9-7 or better next year. If they go 8-8 or worst though, I think it will be time for Ross to pull the plug on the Ireland experiment.

    I also would like to know exactly how you KNOW that Ireland hired all the assistant coaches who came here after Parcells left. It is usually the HC who hires his staff because he wants to hire coaches he is compatible with and shares his philosophy. Ireland is responsible for player personnel decisions and assisting in the hiring of the HC, but I wasn't aware that he also selects and hires all the assistant coaches.
    If that is truly the way it is done on the Dolphins, I understand even more why Harbaugh and Fisher didn't want to become the HC of the Dolphins. I have no idea why any NFL HC would want to work for a GM or owner who tells him what coaches to hire.
     
  21. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    Huh? How about in 2005 when the Dolphins started out 2-7 and finished 6-0. That worked well. Oh wait, we were 6-10 the next year.
     
  22. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    and there are tons are examples of teams that started out with a losing record, finished with a winning one, and then proceeded to carry that winning surge into the following year, so what's your point?

    Answer one question for me. What version of our 2011 team is the most recent one?
    A. the 0-7 one
    B. the 6-3 one

    This is a multiple choice test not an essay, so please mark your answer as either A or B.
     
  23. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I said it before and I will say it again/. It started with Harbaugh yes and Yes Ross goofed big time in how he handled it. Not that it was wrong to pursue but how he did it with Sparano still on teh payroll. But think of how many big name reporters reported it was done and Harbaugh was coming to Miami only to look foolish as he wasnt ever coming. The media cant be foolish for premature reporting, has to be dolphins.
    Fast forward, we pursue Fisher reporteres report we are leading the way and should land fisher only to be wrong again, oh it isnt our premature reporting it teh Dolphins are unlucky they screwed up. we were right but they screwed up.

    Peyton went with his offseason buddy in John Fox and legend Elway but becuase teh media said we wer favorites and we should get him, they cant be wrong.

    King himself said we were all in on Flynn, wouldnt be outbid and would land flynn. we didnt, King looks wrong, bashes fins. When did they say they were all in on Flynn and money didnt matter? I never heard it.


    Basically because the media cant predict what we will do means we are dysfunctional? Yes they have acted curiously and need to be more tactfull and transparent, but that doesnt mean they cant get it done. I believe alot of our dysfunction is media created
     
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  24. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    That all depends. I'll lay blame where blame is due.
    If Ireland: has a bad draft, his drafted 2011 players show little sign of promise, and his FA and other decisions seem inadequate, then I'll blame Ireland.
    If we: have a good draft, the 2011 drafted guys show promise, and we hypothetically have a losing season b/c the transition to a new offense & defense stunts our initial success, then I won't blame anyone b/c I don't expect things to initially be at optimal level.

    Personally, I can't form any opinion of Ireland b/c I don't feel there's enough body of work to do so considering:
    A. Parcells was the one brought in to run the organization and initiate & perform the rebuild.
    B. We don't know what Ireland would or wouldn't have done differently absent Parcells' 3 years of influence.


    I could be wrong but I thought I recall Ireland being responsible for some of those coaching decisions, namely Daboll & Dorrell.
     
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  25. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Typically when someone has such an extreme opinion, it's generated by a great deal of fact (excluding prejudicial people, KKK, that kind of crap). For instance, when we debate the best receivers in NFL history, AJ Green isn't mentioned. It's not b/c it wont ever happen; it's simply b/c the facts currently aren't there to justify such an extreme opinion.

    Personally, I'd consider "wanting someone fired" as an "extreme opinion", and similarly to the above WR reference there should be an abundance of facts to support such an extreme opinion. So, for anyone who wants Ireland fired and his career aspirations potentially destroyed, can you please list all the FACTS (not guesses, assumptions, opinions, suppositions, or conjecture) but actual FACTS that have led you to such an extreme opinion?

    This isn't an attempt to speak down to anyone. It's simply because I, too, would like to form an opinion about Jeff Ireland, and I refuse to do so without knowing all the facts. Therefore, if anyone knows some facts that I've possibly missed, it would greatly help me out to hear them. Thanks in advance.
     
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  26. Ohio Fanatic

    Ohio Fanatic Twuaddle or bust Club Member

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    I have supported giving Ireland more time based on his body of work this whole time. But if we finish below 0.500, and it's not due to some crazy rash of injuries, then it's hard to support him, even with Garrrard or Moore starting. I see Philbin's offense combined with the typical surge you get from a first year coach to get us to 9-7 next year. Not great, but still a significant improvement
     
  27. Boik14

    Boik14 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I dont care what the reason that Fisher didnt come was, Im just glad he didnt. Philbin was my second choice after Cowher/Gruden. If El Jefe did have anything to do with Fisher not coming I chalk that up as a point in Jeff's favor :)
     
  28. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    If we all respect Philbin from what we've seen thus far and the fact that everyone else has tremendous respect for this man, shouldn't we give some credit to Ireland for speaking with him on a professional level and closing the deal..

    I'am not sure the guy is a bad talent evaluator because bottom line, I don't think he was making million dollar decisions while the al mighty poser parcels was in charge..

    Doesn't mean he doesn't suck, it's just that in this case, being a good or great talent evaluator has nothing to do with people liking you, and I don't have enough data to wanna fire him at this point for being a bad evaluator.

    One of the reasons why I do want to give him this year or at least half the year, ( once we see last years rookies progression, half of year should do) is because of some things I have heard about his meticulous attention to detail and his passion for just simple talent evaluation..

    I wonder what our new coach thinks about the fan base here thusfar, poor dude has protestors and sh$$ outside his office, hope he doesn't listen to the radio cause he'll hear no support for himself or his new staff..sucks man..
     
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  29. Bulldog

    Bulldog New Member

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    That's why I wrote past decade and not 5 years. You wrote 5 years. Over the past decade the Rams have played in a Super Bowl and been to the playoffs 3 times. If you go back just a couple mroe years you could add 2 more playoffs and a Super Bowl win.
     
  30. Dorfdad

    Dorfdad Well-Known Member

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    Not sure what you reading however what I stated was my opinion on Jeff Fishers comments on Ireland. No where did I mention anything about Ross.. The NFL is a small community and you don't hear alot of people bad mouthing each other I didn't expect Fisher to say anything negative publicly.
     
  31. fin13

    fin13 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The hatred by the media to the Fins has been incredible to bring in Dr. Phil and make fun of the teams that didn't get Manning was ridiculous.
    Lacanfora and company made up all kinds of **** in order to cover their asses for the misinformation they distributed.
    I hope Ireland turns out to be what the FO thinks, if this team is to be built through the draft he better deliver, the team record isn't as important as the level of play displayed by the players.
    I think 2013 may be the year where they make the jump, but without a QB is going to be hard.
     

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