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"There is a monumental weakness in the organization" - Buoniconti

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Itsdahumidity, Mar 21, 2012.

  1. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    Ireland has been the GM for 4 years. With the exception of 2008 when Penny and the WC fell into our lap, this team has been crap. You can put all the blame on Parcells if you want. I choose not to believe Ireland had no say. I'm waiting for him to make this team better, so far it hasn't happened.

    Sparano and Ireland should have been connected at the hip, IMO. Ireland somehow kept his job and proceeded to upgrade our QB situation with David Garrard and rid us of our best offensive weapon.
    Hopefully he has a plan.
     
  2. Wulf

    Wulf New Member

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    Phans all over are raising Hell with Ireland because the team has gone 20-28 in the 3 seasons since winning the division. Nobody seems to recall that we were 20-44 in the 4 seasons before the trifecta came to town, and had gone through 4 HC's. And our starting QB was Cleo Lemon...
     
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  3. cdz12250

    cdz12250 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Let me ask you, FD. Do you think that Buoniconti doesn't talk to people in the Dolphins organization or the media or the NFL who are not accessible to you or me? Neither you nor I know to whom he has talked about this. What I am saying is that he has knowledge of the business of football that comes from over 50 years of involvement in every facet of the game. I have to think that when he expresses an opinion, he has analyzed it from a different perspective than you or I could. He's Nick Buoniconti. We are fans. It's only common sense.
     
  4. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    No, I don't think that is true.

    I don't think its quite the open fraternity we'd all like to imagine it is. Regardless, if you read the article he is very clearly responding to the media indictments of our FA. He is a fan at this point.
     
  5. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    See right there, you hit the nail on the head.

    I give a reasonable scenario that may have happened. You basically crap on it, not with a reason or an explanation, but with just admitting you flat out choose to believe it wasn't that way. You are saying you don't need facts, you don't need evidence, you just choose to hate him.

    That right there is why you can't accuse me of skewing reality, because its you that is doing that.

    Here's the kicker, if that's what you believe...go for it. I hope it fills you with purpose. But why, oh why, do you want to pick an argument with someone asking for something you specifically don't care about? I want facts, you want anything but. That's like showing up at a gun fight with a unicorn.
     
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  6. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Henning had 93 years of involvement in the game and 76 were spent churning out 20th ranked scoring offense after 20th ranked scoring offense.
    That doesn't mean I want to trust his opinion on how to run a WCO...... or philosophies on outscoring your opponent. :shifty:

    I get your point, but just sayin..... for devil's advocate sake.
     
  7. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Yeah, really..... like you could ever win trying to stab an armed man with a unicorn.
     
  8. Vinny Fins

    Vinny Fins Feisty Brooklyn dolfan ️‍

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    So, we were ****. We're still ****. And it's a decade later.

    I don't ask for much.

    I just want a playoff win.

    A. Single. Damn. Playoff. Win.
     
  9. What I am asking is what has Ireland done that makes you believe he is a great GM. For instance you don't count the Parcell years but I was impressed at how quickly they landed Pennington. They signed him hours after his release from NY. It was impressive how swifly they signed him. I think Ireland deserves credit for that whether Parcells influenced the deal or not. Thats what I mean by dynamic.
     
  10. Califin

    Califin Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
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  11. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I'm gonna answer for FinD b/c I think I know what he's going to say.
    It's not about what we think makes him a great GM, it's about Ireland not having enough body of work (while having full say-so) for us to believe he either isn't or is the answer yet. Since Parcells assumed full control for 3 years and Ireland was working under him, we're saying that we really don't know what aspects of the organization's failures falls on Ireland vs how much fell on Parcells and the coaching staff Bill brought in. All those coaches being deservedly fired doesn't exactly make me want to scapegoat Ireland. If anything it makes me feel like he got a bad wrap for the mess that he's had to help clean up while Parcells slipped away in the night.


    The only thing about Ireland I can infer is the man who paid a billion dollars for this franchise likely has an idea of who was to blame, and since Ireland is still here I'm guessing Ross believes there was sufficient evidence to feel comfortable putting his billion dollar franchise in Ireland's hands. So, yes, I will trust Ross's decision over the common fan's to keep Ireland, especially the knee jerk fans who, if they had it their way, our QB last year and this would be either Kevin Kolb or Kyle Orton.


    So in this regard, I personally treat Ireland as a 1st year GM heading into his 2nd season since he was only handed the reigns last year, and I like what he attempted in his 1st year with full control, so I personally would like to reserve judgement about his 2nd year until the 2012 season is over b/c rebuilds suck. That and the fact that a new GM could mean a new HC, and I like Philbin and would like to see what he accomplishes.
     
  12. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    So why couldn't a "splash" this offseason simply = head coach who potentially turns the same team around into a wildcard playoff team?

    Why does the splash have to be a "player"? Can't a splash be "wins"?
    Heck, are we after players or are we after wins?..... b/c it seems like a large portion of the fan base would say players based on their reaction to the offseason. lol.
     
  13. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Peyton Manning: "There was nothing X, Miami, X, and X, did to make me not want to go there." "I wanted to play for all of them but unfortunately I could only choose one."


    Personally I might trust Manning's belief about this organization over Buoniconti since Manning had 96 million reasons to decide if we were worthy of being in the running for his services.
     
  14. MAFishFan

    MAFishFan Team Tannehill

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    i'm not defending ireland because i think he's not very good...i'm not going to totally slam shula, because he's shula, but when Miami wasn't winning super bowls and losing to buffalo in the playoffs because they had no defense or running game, where were all these old timers complaining about the moves that weren't being made? oh right, because shula was their guy...shula cripples marino's career with not even a halfway decent/servicable rb and a linebacker who could tackle or a corner who could cover and no one says a peep...funny how that works
     
  15. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    You don't find a Qb you don't find franchise players, you're team doesn't win, you get fired as a GM. Add failed high profile coaching searches, free agent invites that fail, bad PR about predraft interviews and its not hard to see how people want him gone. I thought he deserved to be fired after the Harbaugh/Sparano debacle. There was no excuse for a GM that wasn't 16 years old and mentally handicapped to not understand how you cannot interview a coaching candidate with a current headcoach, of course Harbaugh wasn't going to come here after seeing how the present coach was treated. Coaches care about stuff like I don't know, being treated like dirt and becoming a national laughing stock, go figure.

    There really isn't a lot of spin needed by the "haters" or "biased media", we've stunk for a long time and there are not any players on this roster that really give you hope. Sure we have some solid Dlinemen, some talented young players and a good pass rusher, a good backup Qb, but fans (and rightfully so IMHO) look for stars and franchise talented players to give them hope that we can win a title. A Qb competition between a 34 year old Qb that sat out a year with a bad back and a career backup doesn't light the fanbase on fire to get tickets.

    And now we have a rookie headcoach and if we take a Qb in the top 8 then it will be "this teams young, give it some time, etc" and Ireland will get 3 more years. If he doesn't take a young Qb then he should be fired the day after the draft no questions asked. I understand people taking the patient route with Ireland and giving him the benefit of the doubt but at the same time there is valid criticism of him that isn't blind "hate" or uneducated fans looking for a scapegoat.
     
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  16. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, said I believe he's a great GM.

    You're doing that thing you always do to me in the PoFo, where you completely and entirely misrepresent what I'm saying.

    I will attempt one more time.

    I do not think we have enough data to make a judgement one way or another, on Ireland yet. I think while Parcells was here, he had to find players that fit Parcells mold. Therefore, I only think we have 1 full year of data on Ireland's talent evaluation abilities. Which is why I don't think he's great or horrible, because there isn't enough evidence yet. It is also why no one who wants him fired at this point is coming from a rational place. They do not have enough data. A lot of data people think they have, is also conjecture. No reason has been given from any party in the know as to why Manning & Flynn aren't here.

    Please tell me you understand what I saying now.
     
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  17. finfansince72

    finfansince72 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think its perfectly rational to want to see him fired after the Harbaugh fiasco personally. I really thought we would have seen a new front office and coaching staff LAST year, its a shame we wasted a year finding out the coaching staff and the talent weren't enough to win consistently. Hopefully Ireland proves a lot of people wrong but honestly I think its insulting to read someone writing that there isn't a rational reason to fire him, as though everyone that holds that opinion just hates him personally or is not capable of objective thinking. I also think the now old and beaten like a dead horse excuse that we really don't know what he did in the Parcells regime is tired and really somewhat irrational considering he was in a power position the entire time he's been here and it just made sense to clean house when Parcells left.
     
  18. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I disagree completely.

    Even if the Harbaugh scenario was all his, (most even the Fireland crowd put that on Ross, btw) I don't think its a fireable offense. But if that's the thing that did it for you, fine.

    I too am getting tired. I getting tired of people who just categorically dismiss the notion that he worked FOR Parcells, without any reason, just...he had a title so he's to blame. Getting rid of him with the coaches makes no sense.
    This is troubleshooting.

    If your computer breaks down you have to eliminate variables until you find the cause. The franchise is broken. Coaching staff is replaced, lets see if that fixes the problem before throw out everything else. The funny thing is, it works like that in the game too. If your passing attack is bad and you can't quite put your finger on the exact culprit, do you just cut the OC, QB, the WR and the O-line? No of course not.
     
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  19. Muck

    Muck Throwback Uniform Crusader Retired Administrator

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    I think Buoniconti's criticism is valid. Proof is in the puddin'.

    And that period where the Chad Pennington's would jump right down to Miami is over and done with.

    Even if we overcome and begin turning this thing around, I'm not sure we'll ever get over the hump with Jeff Ireland running the show.
     
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  20. Itsdahumidity

    Itsdahumidity X gonna take it from ya

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    I know right, why didn't they complain about Shula on the Web in the mid to late eighties....?

    First, did you just compare irish to one of NFL's best?

    Second, did you really just compare ireland to Don freakin Shula? For the record many long time

    Dolfans have felt Shula's drafting had cost Danny that elusive ring. It has been discussed ad

    nauseam during home games, at functions, bars etc across the country & abroad. And definitely

    in the 90s when the web finally took form. There were plenty of us who complained. But

    here's the thing, Shula himself publicly even admitted to failing Danny. That's character right

    there my friend. Another factor is having the benefit of doubt. You build a winner, you build

    trust. It's as simple as that.
     
  21. WharfRat

    WharfRat Malignant Lunatic

    you're really comparing FinD to a former practicing lawyer, who among other things actually represented players?

    FinD may be an intelligent person... I don't know. I'm not privy to his degrees or resume... but Nick's is pretty much public knowledge.
     
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  22. Itsdahumidity

    Itsdahumidity X gonna take it from ya

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    you know the deal. some post just to bait others.
     
  23. Bulldog

    Bulldog New Member

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    Playing football isn't anything like running a football team. You show me where Nick has ever had anything to do with the FO of any NFL or college football team and I'll then admit he's credentialed in speaking about FO matters.


    The facts are Nick was a great player. The other facts are, he's talking out of his *** in regards to this topic. Some facts are people here think they can be NFL GM's. Those are the same people critisizing Ireland with little to no proof. Those who are "defending" (I put defending in quotes because I see no one defending him) are doing nothing more than using the facts in order to come to an opinion. That opinion, in short, is that Ireland isn't at fault for the majority of the Dolphin's current ills. That opinion is based off of facts...not emotions and anger.
     
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  24. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    Jeff Ireland was a kicker at Baylor.
     
  25. Wulf

    Wulf New Member

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    Funny how the first and second points were the same one. Don Shula admitted to failing Marino only AFTER they had both "retired" from the game. Of course Jeff Ireland isn't Don Shula, and the game HAS changed. Ireland also has just begun HIS career, while Shula coached the Phins to perfection in his 13th season of coaching. He drafted Marino in his 23rd year as a coach, at the age of 53...
     
  26. Bulldog

    Bulldog New Member

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    True, a half truth, but true. You forgot to mention that he was an assistant coach at the collegiate level, an NFL scout for 11 years obtaining the position of Vice President of College and Pro Scouting for the Cowboys.

    Ireland's career trumps Nick's opinion.
     
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  27. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    Buoniconti is a very intelligent man. He's not Dan Marino. I think someone of his intellect and experience in the NFL should have their opinion valued. And I'm sorry, but Ireland's track record as GM of the Miami Dolphins doesn't trump ANYONE'S opinion at this point, let alone Nick Buoniconti.

    Let me ask you this; If Buoniconti had come out and said, "I think there is a monumental strength in this organization." Would you say his opinion shouldn't be valued?

    That's when you know you're in an emotional argument. Myself and others are pointing to Ireland's record, failures in Free Agency, ability to stabilize the QB position, and coaching search mishaps to want him fired. I think those are valid reasons for someone at a position for 4 seasons to lose their job. Certainly it's not an acceptable performance in most professions, especially when said profession makes a $7 Million annual salary.

    EDIT: Not sure where I got $7 Million from. It's more like $3 Million. You get the point though.
     
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  28. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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  29. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Really? How is that rational at all?
     
  30. First you volunteer to answer a question that I asked in general and not specifically of you, then you do not even asnswer it, and you follow it all up by making the accusation that I'm putting words in your mouth. Seriously dude, get a grip. The question is straight forward. I am looking for evidence that Ireland is good at his job. Your postion seems to be that you need more time to evaluate him before deciding that. If thats your postion, thats fine but why did you even bother to try to answer my question if you have nothing to offer?

    If anything you are missrepresenting yourself, stop trying to transfer blame onto me.
     
  31. Bulldog

    Bulldog New Member

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    Look, there is absolutely no proof that Nick knows anything about the goings on inside the Dolphins FO. No one is questioning his intellect or motives. People are, however, questioning his opinion. Why? Because he's showing that his opinion is based off of emotion and not reasoning or facts. If Nick had come and said, "I think there is a monumental strength in this organization.", I'd give that statement as much credence as I did to his statement implying that there is a weakness within the organization.

    And Ireland's record is exactly what I'm using. You say that you are too, but that's patently false. What you're using is presumptions, half truth's and things that he hasn't or doesn't control.

    Failure in FA? He's hit on way more than he's missed. Have you compared him to other GM's around the league? Take a look at Belichick's FA record and compare the two. I think you'll be surprised.

    Inability to stabilize the QB position? How so? Do you think he can create more and better QB's out of thin air?

    Coaching serach mishaps? Harbaugh? Is that what you're referring to? How was that any of his fault?
     
  32. PhinsRDbest

    PhinsRDbest Transform and Transcend

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    the next dimension
    [​IMG]
     
  33. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    Belechick drafts extremely well. Because of this, he can take flyers (Re: Gambles) on guys in FA. He uses free agency the way it's meant to be used, by adding depth and signing guys who are high reward. Using one of the most successful, if not the most successful coach of the last decade as example by comparison isn't the best way to disprove my point about Jeff Ireland. While Ireland was drafting Koa Misi and John Jerry, Belechick was drafting Gronk and Aaron Hernandez.

    FA speaks for itself. Even his best acquisition, Karlos Dansby, hasn't lived up to his contract (which was the biggest for a LB in history, I believe)

    As for Harbuagh, Irleland is the GM. Of his responsibilities, one of them has to be to NOT fly out to interview a potential head coach when you already have a coach under contract. Not sure who's fault it is if not his. Even if Ross insisted, someone has to be there to explain that it's not a good idea. As much credit as you appear to be giving him, I'd think you'd have to admit he should know better.
     
  34. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    Look at that horse. That horse is amazing.
     
  35. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    No he doesn't.
     
  36. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    Compared to whom? His last two drafts, by all accounts, have been amazing.
     
  37. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Ted Thompson, Bill Polian, Snyder, whoever drafts for pittsburgh, Ozzie Newsome.
     
  38. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    You're off base here. There's simply no argument to be made that Belechick hasn't drafted well. None. I'd ask you to support your claim, but you can't. Look at how many starters New England has who were drafted by the team. That's what those teams of those other GM's and the Patriots have in common. The Giants are another.
     
  39. Bulldog

    Bulldog New Member

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    Nope. Please, show me the instance I compared FinD to anyone.

    I clearly, and simply stated that Nick is using emotions and FinD is using brains. How is that comparing two people and their past or current positions or intellect?

    Again, if Nick was working in any capacity for the Dolphin's FO I'd lend credence to his statements about the team. However, he's not working for the Dolphins. So, I'll give him the same benefit of the doubt that I give anyone who is speaking about things they know nothing about and in doing so using emotions instead of facts.

    Now, if Nick said, "a person should play LB'er like X, Y, and Z", and Find said, "no, a person should play LB'er like A, B, and C", I'd tell FinD to pound sand. ;)
     
  40. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    He misses way more than he hits and many starters in New England are terrible. Especially on defense. He hasn't drafted one successful wide receiver. Plus he has drafted a bunch of tight ends before hitting on two last season.

    There is plenty of argument. His best draft pick has been Tom Brady. Having a great quarterback has hid his pretty bad draft record.

    One thing he is good at is turning draft picks into more draft picks.

    EDIT: Julian Edleman isn't half bad though.
     

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