Draft Winds. Free Agency, Wide Receivers in the Draft, Dolphins Meetings

So who did GB take in the 1st round with their initial #30 pick? What's that? No one you say? Or are you saying that 30th pick vanished into thin air? Please tell me, who did that 30th pick turn into?

 

Green Bay didn't have a 1st round pick once they traded. You can argue this till your face turns blue and Jordy Nelson will always be a 2nd round pick and Dustin Keller will always be the 30th pick of round 1. There's a very likely chance that if they hadn't traded back that Nelson might not have been the pick.

 

So how do you explain Nelson's 18.6 avg and 15 TDs? Are you saying the Packers don't utilize both aspects?

you took what I said out of context and just ran with it, KM. What I was referring to were the exceptions, the 6'1+ receivers WITH body control who can run good routes and with the size/strength to keep from being misdirected off them. That 5'10 guy won't be given a free release every play, correct? Yes, the 5'10 guy typically has better body control, but how good is that body control and route precision if he's occasionally being out-physicaled or rerouted at the LOS, and how is his catch radius compared to the bigger guy? so there's some give and take here, no?

There's also a reason you see 6'4 guys doing things Bess can NOT do. I'm not sure why you're using Bess as a reference when we won't be fielding an offense full of slot receivers.

 

Does anyone know where I could find a full list of the players Miami has worked out/interviewed?

It would be most appreciated!

 

Keep on not answering the question fella. So 1.49 & 1.50 aren't considered fast? And wouldn't that be a more prudent measurement of the type of speed utilized in Philbin's offense rather than 40 time?

 

I'd consider that fast as far as being able to get a quick jump at the snap. No correlation as to whether they'd be a deep threat though.

By the way is it true that Stephen Hill ran a 1.2 10 yard split? Jesus christ if that one is right.

 

that's not even the same thing.

Again, semantics aside, who was the FIRST player GB took in 2008?... and what original pick was used to get him?



I'm sorry, but semantically trying to say "he's a 2nd rounder b/c he was taken in the 2nd round" is insignificant in this instance. What is important is GB (with Philbin as OC) showed they WOULD IN FACT take a WR with their 1st pick in a draft where they did have a 1st rounder. Was anyone taken before a WR? No. Their 1st round pick became Jordy Nelson, not some 4th rounder. And none of this matters b/c this is Miami, not Green Bay, and Ireland is our GM, not Philbin. If Ireland wants a WR to replace Brandon, there's no history to show Jeff will or won't take one in the 1st round.

 

A 2nd round pick is a 2nd round pick. You lost this argument a long time ago...why keep beating a dead horse? I don't hear folks anywhere say "1st round pick Jordy Nelson". He's always referred to as a 2nd rounder because that's what he damn well is.

Why are we even arguing this? There isn't even a WR in this draft in range of Miami's 8. Blackmon at worse will be gone by the time St Louis picks.

 

Okay I have to chime in for one second. People are asking why 6'4 receivers don't do what Welker and Bess do? It isn't because a 6'4 guy can't be as quick or agile, it's because a 6'4 guy who can do what Welker and Bess can do to go along with his size and speed is called a #1 WR and they usually don't play the slot or get asked to do that sort of thing. It's not that they don't exist.

 

Again, this isn't about debating whether or not Jordy Nelson was a 2nd rounder. Draft wise, yes, he was a 2nd rounder. This is about Green Bay's willingness under Philbin to use a first rounder (directly or indirectly) on a WR. They showed they would take one with their first pick, end of story. Their 30th pick didn't just vanish. It became Jordy Nelson at #36.


We also have to look at who was available at Green Bay's 1st round selections and then compare that with their areas of need.

2007: GB had the 16th pick. Dwayne Bowe wasn't taken until 23rd. It might've been a reach then to take a WR over their greater need at DT, especially with Jennings & Driver on the roster.
2008: their 1st rounder became Jordy Nelson.
2009: Dom Capers took over as DC, and that draft was clearly about fixing the defense, so I'm not sure why WR would even enter the picture in the 1st round after using their 1st pick in 2008 on WR while already having Jenning & Driver on the roster. That'd make absolutely no sense.
2010: Green Bay isn't taking a WR over protecting their franchise QB when their WR group is already talented but their offensive tackles are 34 year old Chad Clifton & injured 33 year old Mark Tauscher.
2011: see reference above.

Nothing here shows a lack of willingness to take a WR with a 1st round pick. It's only coincidence. At no point did they have a major need at WR, so it's inaccurate to state they wouldn't use a 1st rounder on one. It's apples to oranges.

 

Don't we need one of those #1 WRs, or is it more important to replace Bess & Hartline than it is to find a #1 go to guy who can hopefully score, too?

 

"I'll have to disagree here. Your center of mass as a shorter receiver is lower which allows you much more agility and body control than the usual 6'3'' 6'4'' guy. That's why the Chargers and Saints have so much emphasis on vertical and straight routes (posts, flies, slants). In an offense where crisp routes and excellent body control are favored, a player around 5'10''-6-0'' would tend to be better at controlling themselves. There's a reason you don't see 6'4" guys doing what Davone Bess or Wes Welker do."
- KingMotion

I couldn't have said it better... I agree with KingMotion though, its basic physics. Bigger players can't be as sudden as smaller players because it takes more time to slow down which gives their intentions away to the defenders. It is basic physics...

Momentum = Mass x Velocity (note: Mass does NOT equal weight!!)
Intrinsically, bigger WRs have bigger masses (regardless of weight difference), thus they have more momentum, thus it takes MORE time to change speed.

Given that a 6'4 receiver and a 5'11 receiver are running a route at the same speed, the 5'11 receiver will have less Mass and thus less Momentum; He will be able to change his speed faster.

 

Yes it was and thank you for finally agreeing even if you still went on to try and tie it to 'first pick' yet again.

Still doesn't negate the fact that there isn't a WR even in Miami's area that they could draft making it a moot argument as to whether Ireland/Philbin would draft one in the first. They may end up doing so but would have to either trade up (not going to happen) or trade down. In a deep WR class I just can't see them spending a 1st on a WR when Luke K. is just sitting there teasing us. If it was as poor as the Safety class then yes I could see them pushing harder to do so in the first.

I do see a lot of WR's being drafted though with how deep this class is. I could easily see a 2nd and one of the 2 3rd's PLUS a late rounder being added to the mix. Just hope they don't pick as badly as Cleveland did the year they added a lot of WR's.

 

Again, I'm not saying Nelson wasn't a 2nd rounder or that Nelson was a 1st round pick so stop saying that. I'm only saying that GB took him with their 1st pick and used their 1st round pick to get him. Regardless of trading back or not, their #30 pick resulted in Nelson, so I see no evidence to rationalize the belief that GB under Philbin wouldn't use a 1st rounder on a WR, and if the Jets didn't call to trade up, you can't say that Nelson wouldn't still have been GB's first pick at #30 just as he was their 1st pick at #36.

 

When did ILB become a core position prioritized over #1 WR?

Our biggest needs just became #1 WR & DE (outside QB).

I don't buy into the thought process of passing on a guy in draft deep at his position with the hopes of finding a substitute in later rounds despite competing with 31 other teams. That mentality gets us Patrick Turner instead of Hakeem Nicks.

 

Your insinuating it by constantly revolving your entire argument around Jordy Nelson when the actual trend shows much much MUCH more clearly that Green Bay drafts WR's in the 2nd........not the 1st. So it's a lot more likely that Nelson would not have been the first round pick. I'll go with 4 Wr's in the 2nd over some possibilty that they might have drafted Nelson in the first.

Either way I am out of this argument because again its' all moot by not having a 1st round WR in the range of Miami's pick. If Miami trades down in the first...then we can re-argue it in the draft chat room that day lol.

If were playing more 4-3 then we have a hole at MLB just like we do at WR , DE (which may be solved by signing Anderson) and FS. Since there is no WR in Miami's range in the first, nor a FS and I do believe we will end up with Anderson (otherwise Coples is probably the pick).....I landed on Luke K....cause the guy is a beast of a MLB. I don't buy any other WR in the top 15 other then Blackmon who won't make it past St. Louis.

 

To be fair I really can see ToddPhins point. They probably also didn't draft 15 other positions in the first round while Philbin was there but it doesn't mean they wouldn't. First of all Philbin didn't have say in exactly who they drafted as OC. I'm sure he had a lot of input but at the end of the day it wasn't his choice. Nor does he have the final say now, but I'm sure he has more as a HC than an OC.

 

I could very well see us taking Luke Kuechly in round 1.... And this draft has a lot of value in rounds 2 and 3 for WR. I actually just made a pretty big thread about it. (http://www.thephins.com/forums/showthread.php?69227-Dolphins-Draft-Predictions&p=1728930#post1728930)

"Like I mentioned above I could see us taking two wide receivers where the talent is very good compared to the position of the draft. I fully believe that 2 of our 3 picks in rounds 2 and 3 will be used on WR. There are a lot of targets that fit in the WC that Philban could love including: Mohamed Sanu, Marvin McNutt, Chris Givens, Devon Wylie, Marvin Jones, Ryan Broyles. If we got any two of those guys between rounds 2 and three I would be ecstatic."

 

Before we traded Marshall you would've seen me agreeing completely with you, but now that we're short a #1 WR when we were already in need of help at the receiver position, I no longer rule out the possibility of Michael Floyd who would likely be a solid Jordy Nelson type replacement in a Philbin offense, and Floyd would be a great vertical target for Flynn b/c Matt doesn't have the arm strength to truly utilize a guy like Mike Wallace or DeSean Jackson's speed. Flynn's accuracy and anticipation ability pairs very nicely with a big, physical 6'3 220 receiver who can dominate over a DB down field. We need that downfield threat or this offense won't work, especially with Reggie at RB who desperately needs a defense to respect the vertical play in order to keep defenders out of the box & easily stuffing him.

This offense will operate partly around the concept of space b/c Reggie is our running back. We have to be able to give him space around the LOS & box to make plays, and in turn his ability to be effective makes the rest of the offense better. If we can't stretch the field, we're screwed b/c Reggie isn't a pound it out back, so a WR who can make plays down field is an absolute must, and like I said, Floyd is a better compliment to Flynn than some 4.3 burner.

 

The beauty of the WC is you don't need a number 1 wide receiver. It is much better to have a bunch of good WRs than a number 1 in the WC. Reason being in the WC you spread the ball around all over the field to all the WRs, no one WR will get as many looks as Brandon Marshall did last year. In a WC it is much better to have a bunch of good WRs than a great number 1 and 3 average guys.

Additionally, like I keep mentioning I LOVE the WR talent that will be available in rounds 2 and 3. We wouldn't be able to find a player like Kuechly in round 2 or 3 though.

If you want someone like Jordy Nelson you could grab a McNutt (not a McDonald's food item ) in round 2. Check out these highlights and tell me they don't remind you of Nelson.
[video=youtube;XzDog7j9ziE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzDog7j9ziE[/video]

 

Joseph Addai

 

We'd also be wise to look at GB's offense and attempt to duplicate it as much as possible at WR & TE b/c we know with GB's surrounding cast Flynn can be successful. With the variables different we can't say that Flynn wouldn't be influenced since he's more of a system guy.

With this in mind, who was Flynn's top target and most influential player in his limited experience? It was Jordy Nelson and his 9 catches for 162 yards and 3 TDs. If people care more about our QB's success than a MLB, then we'd be smart to find a target who closely resembles the one Flynn had the greatest success with..... and that could very well be Michael Floyd (if Coples is off the board), followed by possibly Rueben Randle or Greg Childs.

Not to mention, with us having 3 3rd rounders, we now have the ability to plug in more holes at non core positions like 43 LB, SS, G, Te,or RT.

 

Addai was in 2006 by the Colts and had nothing to do with GB.

 

Ours, Bears and ???

Where did we get the last one?

 

I think he forgot that the second 3rd round pick for Marshall is next year.

 

Maybe I'm missing something which is always possible, but how do you get McNutt from Jordy Nelson? Nelson is fast off the line (hence is 1.49 10 yard) while McNutt needs time to build speed. Nelson has some nice burst and little bit of explosiveness, where as McNutt is lacking. Jordy is a great route runner with the balance, body control, and acceleration to be sudden in his routes and effective in all three phases- short, medium, and long. McNutt doesn't run the greatest routes yet, nor does he seem sudden enough to be the kind or consistent and reliable target in the short to intermediate game that Flynn would need in more of a timing offense based on his average arm strength.


I don't love any 3rd round receiver more than a 1st round receiver when we have a major hole in our receiving corps in an NFL that's geared toward the pass and favors receivers.
I like Keuchly, too, but an LBs not named Willis, Lewis, Brooks, or Urlacher should have no part in the top 8 of the draft, and none of those guys were even drafted by our 8th pick.


Teams have made that mistake before and it routinely ended up a poor use of the pick. Aaron Curry, Keith Rivers, AJ Hawk, Ernie Sims, Chris Claiborne.

 

Sorry I was drunk and tired. I have no idea why I said that lol.

 

lol

 

If you don't see it, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree (which is fine sometimes ). This draft thing is more of a guessing thing than a science thing.

The similar attributes that I see are: size, body control (him and Nelson are both incredible at this), hands, they both aren't necessarily burners but always seem to get open, tackles seem to bounce off them, both have that football player mentality (which isn't often seen at the WR position), uses his body well to shield defenders, he looks like a decent route running to me (I'll give you that his routes aren't as crisp as Nelson coming out though), can catch in traffic, elusive, and last but not least he is very clutch. Look at how many of those TDs came when his team was trailing in the 4th quarter.

 

We're done when you tell me who the Packers first pick of 2008 was whom their 1st round pick resulted in.

Moving back 6 spots is a little different than moving back 16 spots, but regardless, Odrick was still our 1st pick just as Jordy was GB's.

 

I'm not underlining your point. I'm merely saying there's another aspect that should be highlighted along with your outstanding initial point, which is--- these guys seem to have a pretty good first gear in addition to their route running ability.

 

Have a drink

 

Still don't see how first player picked helps an argument of a WR in the first round. If anything it weakens it.

 

It shows they're not afraid to use their first pick on a WR, especially when they're already talented at the position b/c in this instance their #36 pick was essentially their 1st round pick, and it's quite conceivable that if the Jets didn't call for a trade up GB would've still taken Nelson.

#31: Free safety featured Nick Collins, so there was no need for Kenny Phillips.
#32: Aaron Kampman was at LDE so I don't see Merling being taken.
#33: Donnie Avery didn't fit the mold of what GB was looking for b/c if he did the Packers would've likely taken DeSean Jackson over Nelson at 36. He was also seen as a reach IIRC.
#34: Devin Thomas doesn't seem like the type of WR they would've been looking for based on his questionable route running ability, awareness, and instincts.
#35: With ProBowlers Woodson & Al Harris at CB, I doubt they would've taken Brandon Flowers.
And I'm guessing they knew who the Jets wanted at #30, so if GB wanted Keller as well, I don't think they would've handed him over to NY.

That leaves Nelson as the obvious 1st round pick if GB didn't trade back.

 

I know that was supposed to be about draft prospects but the description of wrs for Philbins oftenest tell me Bess is going to the ProBowl next year. Even if Matt Moore is the QB.

 

We let Brandon Marshall go and we are letting all the best available free agent wr's go to other teams. We missed out on Laurent Robinson, Mario manningham, Brandon Lloyd signed with the pats. Vincent Jackson is long gone. This is disturbing to not have any wr's worth talking about and we are gonna put all our hopes in the draft for a wr. We need atleast one proven veteran wr. I like building through the draft but I hate the risk of drafting a bust.

 

When we traded Marshall I nearly blew my entire gasket but now I'm not really worried. There are some talented WR's in the draft and I believe in the offensive system we will be running.

 

man I sure hope we draft the right wr or were f'd with out Marshall taking double and triple coverage from last year don't see us scoring many points.