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with or without Manning...

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by the 23rd, Mar 15, 2012.

  1. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    That's the same as me asking you if you'd take tannehill over luck. If both were available to you. Not an accurate comparison. It's safe an accurate to say luck is an oddity and. we aren't comparing luck to flynn. We are comparing flynns NFL experience vs rookie qbs. So yeah actually he does beat luck in that.
     
  2. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    The difference is that the weather doesn't gameplan against the weaknesses of either plant, and in this scenario we are speaking of two separate plant species. If you believe the seed has few weaknesses that can be exposed, you still go with plant #2. Once there is some film on plant #1 teams will find specific ways to attack its weakness.
     
  3. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    You are asking a totally different question. Plus a meaningless question to the conversation.
     
  4. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    So teams are going to gameplann against flynns 2 starts and that's the downside? I hope you are trolling me right now....... I knew I shoulda went for a children's book style analogy. Lol ;P
     
  5. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    No that isn't what I meant.

    What I meant was that if you believe that Flynn has weaknesses that can be exposed long term such as arm strength, reading defenses, and so forth but you see fewer long term flaws in a QB in this draft you go with the QB in the draft. I'm saying it is possible Flynn has flaws that just haven't been exposed yet that could be major drawbacks.

    For what it is worth I'd much rather have Flynn than a guy like Tannenhill who I believe has BUST written on his forehead. I'm just making the point that in only two starts it is a lot easier to hide any flaws than it will be as time progresses because teams simply don't have relevant film on you.
     
  6. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Ok, it is clear that you are simply trying to win an argument for the sake of winning an argument and not because you have a point anymore.
     
  7. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    I think he was just trying to make a point that being great in two starts doesn't mean you have more potential than a rookie. He wasn't implying that Luck was relevant to us at all. He was just saying that if you grade a rookie higher than Flynn and that rookie is available two starts by Flynn shouldn't derail you.
     
  8. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    As pro flynn as i am, I very much agree with you here.. although imo I don't feel that is the case after watching each game a few times... I do agree that is possible. He still has a lot of darkness and questions about his potential, I just see him as less of a bust chance then what is left of the qb class, especially considering his ties with Philbin
     
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  9. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    I'm not saying it is true either, I'm just playing devils advocate here because it is a possibility still. I think you go after whichever QB you grade the highest. Out of what is available minus Manning that has to be Flynn at this point. I just hope we don't sell him the farm in his contract. it needs to have a way for us to escape early if he bombs.
     
  10. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    If that was the point he was making, then we were having a different conversation.
     
  11. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    Editting my posts or adding to them on my phone sucks lol...Like I said, I really don't see him asking for a breakthebank contract, let alone get one... I see him as wanting to work with Philbin .. especially in a system he knows.... I would.
     
  12. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    I didn't read the whole thing, just that one post he made. That is what I took from the post, I can't speak for him at all he will have to say what he really meant :lol:
     
  13. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Right, no one said that means you have more potential.

    All anyone said was that it is more evidence of being able to play in the NFL. I know, I know, a point so basic and common sense its amazing it has to be argued for pages.
     
  14. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    FinD where do babies come from?
     
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  15. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    I'm on the same page as you here honestly. I just don't think his post really came across correctly but only he can say that.

    On the one hand you have Flynn who has proven he can play. It's like having two boxes. You know what one is fairly well but the other is completely unknown. It might have a million dollars or it might have nothing. It all comes down to how much you like what is already known to you.


    Also babies come from the stork. DUH.
     
  16. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    I'm mad at you for second guessing my greenthumb. I'm gunna go get that crazy *** pass blocking panchi dog thing. He'll be my friend
     
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  17. Bulldog

    Bulldog New Member

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    Not really. You're saying that 2 games should matter. I'm saying that IMO they don't and if they do it's to such a small degree that it's worth mentioning. Hell, if those 2 games really mattered people would be taking Flynn over Luck.
     
  18. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    If you really believe that, then that is why you fail.
     
  19. Bulldog

    Bulldog New Member

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    I wasn't arguing. I've repeatedly stated that i have an opinion and others have there's. You're the one saying my opinion is wrong. I never said anyone's opinion was wrong.
     
  20. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Sigh.

    Your opinion is opposite of mine. Both of our opinions can't be right since they are opposite. Therefore by the simple fact of having the opinions we do we are saying each other's opinions are wrong.

    Anyway.

    Let's play it your way then. Give me the exact number of games in the NFL that it starts to matter. If you can tell me two means literally nothing, then tell me what the exact number is and why.
     
  21. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    69.

    it was the number on my jersey when i played.
     
  22. Bulldog

    Bulldog New Member

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    Right, i fail because i dont think 2 games in 4 seasons proves anything. But whatever...
     
  23. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    Exactly, that is why you fail.

    Your opinion is wrong. It is like thinking the moon is made out of cheese or the world is flat.

    2 games in 4 seasons does prove things. The question isn't if it proves anything. That is a stupid question, because of course it proves things. The quesiton is, how much does it prove and how much does it mean?

    It is like saying the combine is meaningless and preseason doesn't prove anything. Both of those statements are false.
     
  24. Bulldog

    Bulldog New Member

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    There are no exacts. However, 2 is too few and 100 is way too many. Seriously though, i'd like to see at least a full season under a QB's belt before i start using his game play as a justification for signing him to a big contract. However, some guys may need more. Rarely, however, has a guy played 2 games and been hyped as much as Flynn. And over the last decade or so in the NFL QB's in general have been ruined by the hype. Again though, i'm not saying Flynn won't or can't be good, I'm saying 2 games isn't enough to make that determination. If Philbin takes a chance on Flynn it won't be because of those 2 games....it will be because he coached him for 4 seasons and watched him practice and study.
     
  25. Bulldog

    Bulldog New Member

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    Sorry, i thought i was being clear enough and didn't need to explain the obvious like I do with my kids. I should have realized i needed to be more clear when the insults towards me started and words like "fail" while being used in a 9th grade meme context popped up.

    In the scheme of things 2 starts means or proves next to nothing. Yes, next to nothing is something, so you got me and i "fail".
     
  26. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

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    It is a Star Wars reference, get it right.
     
  27. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

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    I'll go out on a limb and say that it takes a full 2 seasons for a QB to be properly evaluated. The first season is almost always spent reassessing the speed of the game, terminology, reads, etc...not including those who have to learn how to operate under center. The second season is building on what they learned from the prior season and fine tuning. To go with this idea I will post some blind stats, go ahead and match them up to the players if you can.

    QB A:
    Year 1
    326-575 56.7% 3739 26 28

    Year 2
    331-533 62.1% 4135 26 15

    Overall record 2 years
    26-26

    QB B

    Year 1:
    341-546 63.6% 4038 28 13

    Year 2:
    350-541 64.7% 4434 30 7

    Overall 2 year record
    17-15

    I realize these may be picked to prove my point, but these are both guys that I would KILL to have as QB for the Dolphins.
     
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  28. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    You're wrong if you think those 2 games don't help Philbin justify his own thoughts, aiding/justifying the knowledge he'd been gaining during the 4 years. i'm sorry.

    He would take both into consideration... The knowledge he gained plus the TANGIBLES.

    You think he'd negate the 2 games all together or something? including the last one for 500~ yards thrown and 6TDs? You're nuts man. I don't care if the other team napped the whole game, Name a couple other 2nd start rookies that pulled that off please.

    For all I know Flynn could be a total bust. But the fact that a few of you can't grasp that the 2 games he played mattered QUITE A BIT, is beyond me.
     
  29. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    breaking news? Manning out Flynn to visit within two days
    http://www.miamiherald.com/sports/
    apparently, the second shoe has hit the floor

    hope we close a deal commiserate with this guys real potential & experience & not proceed with a coronation
    1) reasonable contract for a backup who has never been a NFL starter
    2) draft Tannehill or Weedon to develop within the franchise by our QB guru

    wish Mr. Manning the best of Luck, no pun intended. Tennessee is a nice state, I'm sure he'll be happy there.
     
  30. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    As soon as the report of Flynn coming to miami for a look-see happened, I assumed this was the somewhat obvious assumption
     
  31. PhinsRock

    PhinsRock Premium Member Luxury Box

    Mind telling me what stinking tapes we have on Tannehill? On Weeden? Any of those against NFL players? I suppose the Pats were nuts to take Brady in the 6th round? Idiots! What were the Pats thinking? What stinking tapes did they have on Tom Brady? Fools! . . .oh, wait . . .

    Not trying to be arbitrary here, just pointing out that WE are not professional football player talent evaluators. I would LOVE to see us sign Flynn, then draft Weeden in the 1st round, yes I said 1st round, otherwise you will not find him there and will lose out on arguably one of the top 3 QB's in this draft. The ONLY reason he isn't being equated with Luck/RG3 is Weeden's age, period. And I strongly suspect if we sign Flynn and let Moore, Flynn and Weeden all have an equal shot to compete for the starting position, Weeden will win.

    But then again I am NOT a pro-football talent evaluator now, am I? :lol:

    This is the only time of the year I actually cruise this section, meaning leave Club. I do so really for the comedy. Folks I am just as unsure of what the heck Ireland is doing as anyone on these boards. But I do know one thing for certain: the sky is not falling! :lol:
     
  32. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    now that we know the Road Not Taken & will be traveling "another one"
    let's get this one done right, Ireland needs to cement this to our advantage
    Flynn will get his start under the best of all possible scenarios
    & we go to the draft for a developmental project in Tannehill or Weedon

    no more excuses, lets get it done:dolphin:
     
  33. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    I just don't see the first round QB happening.. Lol.........I just don't.

    Not that I would mind.... but....think about it.....seriously...Especially if we sign Flynn? come on.
     
  34. Bulldog

    Bulldog New Member

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    Of course he wouldn't ignore those 2 games. The fact that you would even ask that question shows you're not getting my point.

    As to your request for me to name off any other rookies? Flynn is a rookie? He's been in the league for 4 years. And to prove my point even further...only 12 QB's have ever thrown for 500 or more yards in a game. 3 of those did it in one year...last year... Brady, Brees, and Bradford. Since 1943 the 400 yard passing mark has been bested about 250 times (Marino having the most) Last year alone it was bested 22 times. So, in 70 years 250 times and in 1 year 10% of that? Sorry, one game with 400+ yards, in today's NFL, means next to nothing.

    Now, if you want to talk about Flynn's footwork, arm strength, defense reading ability, scrambling, etc etc...I'm game. However, with only 2 games to go by it's tough to debate. You know, kind of like how I compared Flynn to rookies? Rookies get the combine, pro days, etc. Flynn had his combine (went 7th round due to that effort) and has played in two NFL games for one of the best teams in the NFL.

    Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm not really looking at Flynn's two games. do they fit someplace in the equation for my opinion of him? Sure, but way down at the bottom. The truth is, I haven't seen enough of him to want to throw millions of dollars at him. However, Philbin has and if he liked what he's seen I most certainly will take his opinion over mine 100 out of 100 times and that also goes for anyone else's opinions of Flynn. at this point though, all opinions about Flynn from fans are valid. And the most valid are the ones that simply say, "I don't know."
     
  35. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    I didnt mean to word it like he is a rookie.... which should be obvious of me phrasing things wrong. actually meant 2nd rookie start as in, early start beginning games...just starting...2nd time... etc. didnt mean to make it sound like i was referencing him as a rookie to the league if it come off like that.... That the fact that you are being THAT analytical of what i'm saying also worries me a little, at this point

    Rookie no starts. vs Newer QB at starting with some starts. whether it be 1 or 2 or whatever.

    The fact is you have -some- data to go off of..... is it 3 seasons worth of stats? no. Is it a helluva lot more than what a rookie can show? obviously because its more than ZERO.
    Its not really worth arguing over to be honest...... Rookies can only be projected on how they will transition to the NFL, projected,.... assumed,...... (GUESS)....... so ANY data on how they handle an actual NFL snap is near beyond value, especially in the qb driven league we are at at this point. Not once did anyone say He is a great QB because of his 2 start stats. or even say he is a GOOD QB overall. Merely that his stats were impressive, so were some of the plays in those games, and playstyle...pretty damn good ball placement too..... He could have just went 0/3 on ints between his 2 starts or even 5/5 or something for that matter... but he didnt...He put up numbers that make most non-qb-having teams cream themself. Not only that... he is a tool in philbins system.....thats the deal for me more than anything tbh so i agree with you there

    A dolphins fan saying that... in the context of our next more-than-likely QB....amazes me.



    When we end up signing him after Philbins thumbs up this will all be irrelevant anyway........ None of the QBs left in the draft are really impressive enough to me at this point tbh.
     
  36. Laces Out

    Laces Out Well-Known Member

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    Love the hyperbole, now use ****ing instead of stinking.....

    You are being arbitrary though, read all of my posts ITT.
    I'm not, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn last night :up:

    But in all seriousness, we all have our opinions on what the club should and shouldn't do and express them either for the sake of discussion, or to prove a point, or even get in a dick measuring contest. And guess what? Not all of them will match up, and that is okay too.


    Again, being arbitrary.....see this:

    http://www.thephins.com/forums/showthread.php?67893-Holy-crap

    I know that the sky isn't falling, and have said as much.
     
  37. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    So let's pretend he isn't Matt Flynn at all. Lets say There is a Mystery QB out there somewhere, he is available, Was groomed after arguably the best QB in the NFL for a few years.... Not only that our new HC was his O/C for those years who aided in drilling our soon to be system in his head.

    Now that random QB has 2 NFL starts and has 9 TDs with 1,015 yards and a 92.8 QB rating yards in his first two games..........

    and you'd still just disregard him and continue to look at the non luck/rg3 tangible qbs in THIS YEARS draft as a primary selection possibly even a STARTER over giving this guy a shot, purely because he only has 2 games and that number for a new-qb-starter is not even worth slightly considering? ........that and maybe you'd have to pay the guy some money. Like that is some downside.... you act like "millions" of dollars is insane to pay nfl players for their services.....let alone to give it to arguably the most important position on the field
     
  38. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I got it.

    We have no meaningful data on Flynn in the NFL, in your estimation. In fact we have the exact same amount of NFL info on Flynn as we do on Tannehill.

    Makes perfect sense.
     
  39. dWreck

    dWreck formerly dcaf

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    Yo,

    My head hurts for real.
     
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  40. Alex44

    Alex44 Boshosaurus Rex

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    If we sign Flynn and just hand him the starting job honestly I will be pissed. Minus an awful second season starting with Carolina (plagued with inurjies and and just a god awful team around him) Moore has shown a lot of potential as well. I'd love to see what he could do in a well run offense, I see a lot of things in him I really like to go along with things that could be improved upon.

    My hope is that we can sign Flynn to a friendly deal and have him compete with Moore this season. Not a fan of Tannenhill at all. If Moore and Flynn both fail you are probably in position to draft a QB next season anyway.
     
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