I love Perry, I like him better than Upshaw, Ingram, and Mercilus. IMO it's a matter of what they are looking for to complement Wake. Do you want the big guy who can rush the passer okay and is best at stopping the run(Coples). Or do you want a guy who matches similar to Wake, pass rushing demon who can stop the run okay(Perry). I would be very happy if 8 ends up being(No particular order): Perry DeCastro Kuechly Coples
I like Nick Perry. He's prototypical, he's athletic, has a core skill set that fits in the 1st round. He's got to be on the short list for #8. But I could see Simon's argument that at #8 overall there will be available guys that were better football players at their position than Nick Perry was at his position. Perry's not exactly a heads up player, I question his core strength not necessarily his upper body strength. I think Courtney Upshaw is a better football player than Nick Perry. He's got a stronger core, is more of a heads up player, and on the football field he actually shows a little bit more range, which I suspect could be due to his being more of a heads up guy. He's a ball of butcher knives. I think Quinton Coples is a better football player than Nick Perry. Again, stronger core strength, more ability to dominate players and plays physically. Enforced his will on plays more often than Perry. The part Richard wrote about his weaknesses as a Defensive Tackle is good to get out there because SO MANY people for some unknown (to me) reason keep wanting to insist the guy was more interesting as a Defensive Tackle. Even when he was playing Defensive Tackle, he wasn't a Defensive Tackle. Just like even though Malik Jackson plays 1-Technique more than anything else, he's not a 1-Technique. He's a Defensive End. You should be able to just look at either player and see that within 30 seconds. It should not take you long. You look at the things Quinton Coples does on the field and I think they're just more impressive from a pure football standpoint than a lot of the things I see out of Nick Perry. [video=youtube;v9SBPy9wOXk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9SBPy9wOXk[/video] I see exactly what Richard is referring to when he says that Coples doesn't threaten the outside shoulder enough, but I think he used the wrong wording. Quinton Coples absolutely threatens the outside shoulder of even good tackle prospects in this Draft. Brandon Washington is a 3rd round type of player and Quinton Coples absolutely threatened his outside shoulder. Just like during Senior Bowl week he was facing off with some of the best offensive line talent in the Draft and he threatened their outside shoulders as well. The very first pass rush play in the Miami video at 34 seconds, you can clearly see Coples threatening the outside shoulder. If that ball doesn't come out, that's a sack, sack-fumble, something along those lines...because Jacory didn't step up enough. He threatens Brandon Washington's outside shoulder once again at 2:50 into the video, which leads Washington to hold him illegally, costing the offense 10 yards. Happens again at 3:34, causing Jacory Harris to step up and out of the pocket, beginning a scramble. And again at 3:54, this time getting the sack because Jacory again did not step up. What Quinton Coples doesn't do often enough, is win the outside shoulder, and that's different from threatening. Threatening the outside shoulder leads to a quarterback pressure and possibly a sack for an infantryman cleaning up your bombing mess. But Coples doesn't often enough straight up win the outside shoulder and get the sack. In the play I mentioned earlier, I said he threatened but didn't win the outside shoulder of Brandon Washington because if Jacory had stepped up, that's not a sack even if he holds the ball a little longer. But then...let's really think about this for a second...how many 6'6" and 285 lbs players can you think of play tighter than the wide-9 or OLB, and actually do that? If you put Coples in a Wide-9 or have him rush from OLB, forget about it. He's getting sacks on the outside shoulder all day. But that wasn't what he did at North Carolina. He actually played a lot of 5-Technique...and I mean, ok Cam Wake and Clay Matthews can win the outside shoulder out of the 5-Technique...but does anyone BIG really do that? If you're 6056 you are not going to dig underneath the tackle's outside shoulder like the 6026 Derek Wake or 6031 Clay Matthews. Heck, even Wake, if you really look at the film, a lot of what he does is threatening the outside shoulder, not winning it. He doesn't necessarily get himself a clear path from an outside rush to where he can sack the quarterback even if the quarterback steps up. That's really hard to do in the NFL. At 2:42 you kind of catch a glimpse of what he could have been doing more of at North Carolina. He lines up with a nice and wide 9 technique, and let's face it...it took no fewer than three men to make sure this guy didn't get to Jacory Harris. He blows by Tight End Clive Walford like he was standing still. Brandon Washington stood no chance of being able to get depth enough in his drop to protect him. In the end it had to be the tailback that played speed bump just long enough to give Jacory Harris enough time on the play to get the throw off. But here's MY question. If you've got three guys protecting against Quinton Coples, and only two other guys rushing the passer against Miami's remaining four blockers...that means you've got eight-on-three coverage. The fact that this pass goes complete to Travis Benjamin anyway for a big gain highlights what I felt was a big problem in the North Carolina defense that directly contributed to Coples' lack of production. The coverage just wasn't there. You know, much is said about pass rush's causal relationship with coverage. If a quarterback has all day to throw, your coverage guys can only cover so long. But the reverse is true. In fact, I'd say that relationship has swung the opposite direction in today's NFL. If you can't cover the short pass and stop the run, your pass rushers never get the opportunity to make plays. And even when they do get those opportunities, if your guys can't cover to the extent that you've got eight-on-three coverage and the ball can come out of the quarterback's hands in 2.46 seconds (yes, I timed it), and be complete for a big gain...I'm sorry, but your pass rushers aren't going to eat. And far too often at North Carolina that's exactly what I saw...Quinton Coples having a bare plate, not being able to eat. I think Richard is 100% correct that at this point, Quinton Coples is ahead as a run defender as compared to being a pass rusher. Spot on. Definitely. What I don't get is...what GOOD run defenders do you guys know that draw the same laziness/lax effort/on-off-switch/inconsistent tags that Quinton Coples draws? Serious question. I really want to know. What good run defenders out there are lazy? If you're a good run defender at Defensive End then to me almost by definition you are not lazy, you are a high effort player. In the end, there's really only one elite pure Defensive End prospect in this Draft. Quinton Coples is that guy. I have a real hard time seeing what I keep hearing people say about him. It happens.
CK - cant say I know enough to chime in to agree or disagree, but that was a great read either way. If what you say is true I'd love to have him on the team - that kind of threat with Wake would be fantastic, and you have to assume they feed eachother to some extent. I cant think of many units that could contain both based on what you've said.
Well, you know...it's in the eye of the beholder. It's nice to have people listen to what I say, but it's also nice to have people watch for themselves and tell me what THEY think too... Quinton Coples vs Miami (2011) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9SBPy9wOXk Quinton Coples vs Missouri (2011) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCzaIhsHLK4 Quinton Coples "Draft Analysis" (2010) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg0kPsASvSg Quinton Coples at Defensive Tackle (2010) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBLY_-j0ntU Based on those videos, I see: -A guy that was too good a run defender to be considered "lazy" -A guy whose sack production was hurt by the positions/techniques assigned -A guy playing on an underachieving defense that couldn't cover -A guy that constantly, constantly "wins" against players he faces That's what I see.
Would like to point out, I specialize in passrushers, they can be found easily..problem has been Ireland likes tall, all around Lb's instead of pure passrushers, that has been 90% of the problem imo. Everyone knew Greg Hardy could get after the passer...no one had the balls to pull the trigger until rd 6 or so.
I dont see Coples as being lazy. He's a guy who takes losing his 1 on 1 battles personally. He looks at it from a true competition within a competition mentality. There's no way I take a potential impact franchise DE for granted, especially not one who's as versatile as he is and especially not when we don't know when we'll be in the position to draft one again. Personally, I'm not a fan of Perry's. Nothing really jumps out as potential pro bowler to me. IMO he has a better chance of becoming the next Larry English than Brian Orakpo. For me, there's only 3 DEs (including hybrid DE/OLBs) I want: Coples, Andre Branch, and Bruce Irvin. All 3 of those guys have something truly special about them that could make them an impact player at the NFL level IMO.
i'm shying away on coples he had 3 sacks against quality opponents this year.yea he did look like the best player on the field in the senior bowl so where was that ability at the rest of the year? thats the ? everyone has.
He's a complete LDE..... and we don't need him to be an elite pass rusher b/c, if we can draft a quality hybrid SOLB, Wake can move to LDE in nickel with Coples moving inside (where he's an above average pass rusher), and the hybrid SOLB moves to RDE. If you get Coples, you draft either Andre Branch or Bruce Irvin along with him for that crucial hybrid-SOLB spot that lets it all happen. That duo is more than enough pass rush from the left at any given down, and they're a perfect compliment to each other and the defense itself IMO. In nickel we'd have: Wake__ Coples__ Odrick__ Branch/Irvin. That'd be outstanding IMO. in base 4-3 we'd have: Coples__Odrick__ Soliai(?)__ Wake **Coples provides that physicality & size from the strong side to make it tougher to run on us on 1st & 2nd down and short yardage while also providing the penetration from the middle during nickel. We can't ask for more IMO. He's also our LDE in 3-4. Wake and Branch/Irvin become the 3-4 OLBs. Major scheme versatility there.
Had to throw in the Clemson guy for good measure, eh? Bruce Irvin for me is STOCK UP right now after the Combine. Big question I had was what do I do with him? How do I make him viable? After seeing him in drills I know that I can make him a true linebacker, and thn still have him come down and rush the passer on pass downs. He has the cutting ability and movement skills for a true LB position, even in a 4-3 like Von Miller.
You know, everywhere I have read or listened to has said that we will be using multiple defenses. The defensive coordinator never came out and said were are running a 4-3. It is going to be a mix of 3-4 and 4-3 to confuse the offense. I wonder where all of this is coming from.
Yup. But only when the Tiger is worthy of becoming a Fin. lol. But I will say, whenever that happens, it does make me a lil happy to talk the player up. As much as I like Irvin the "talent", I think I like his other intangibles just as much. IMO football is Irvin's salvation, so he's definitely a player who can become the rock of your team as well as a guy you can feel comfortable rewarding with a high contract w/o worries of it making him complacent. Like Miller, he's a pure football player IMO. I think he becomes an emotional leader of the team and a lead by example guy as well. IMO having him on the field only helps to make everyone else around him better. Branch is a stud. Like Irvin, his intangibles rival his natural ability. Great football smarts and natural understanding of the game. Fierce, plays with a mean streak, violent hands, understands his assignments, great in pursuit, solid wrap up tackler with some real lower body explosion, great core strength. He's a triple threat RDE IMO-- contains the run, ability to get after the QB, athletic enough to drop into coverage and stay with backs in the flat or TEs down field (as I've seen him impressively do).
Ck, can you comment about your opinion of Coples third gear, as far as his closing speed on the QB please? When I watch Coples I see a big, strong, dominating DE but the biggest weakness I guess that I see is his lack of closing speed. I see him beating the Tackle on a lot of plays, but he just seems to not close well on the QB or HB for that matter. One thing that did surprise me about him was his hand use though. He looks really good, swatting the tackles hands away.
If the Dolphins lose both Soliai and Langford in free agency as anticipated, I see a severe drop off on the defensive side of the ball next season. In fact I think the biggest loss the Dolphins had this off season was DC Nolan leaving to become the DC of the Atlanta Falcons. It would not surprise me in the least if the Dolphins don't drop to a bottom tier defensive unit next year, if they don't resign both Langford and Soliai and with the retirement of Taylor. Even if the Dolphins do resign both these players, I don't see the new defensive coordinator being nearly as effective as Nolan, so I think the days of the Dolphins having a top ten defense are going to end in 2012.
Langford was as solid as they come his tenure in Miami. Now with the transition to a 4-3 Im not sure how much he will or will not be missed. All of a sudden were talking apples and oranges becasue of the change in scheme.
not so sure i'm sold on branch , being a mountaineer fan i even question irvin , bruce looks like he has only one good move and i don't recall any counter moves from his speed rush but i'll check. the bowl game against clemson i question anyone they have on d . branch did he even play in that game ? wvu's oline was dominated this year but not the clemson game so i have reservations about branch.
I think Bruce Irvins biggest advantage is his size/speed/ has a good head on his shoulders 1st round - coples 2nd round - Harrison smith 3rd round - cam johnson 4th round - broyles 5th round - burfict
exactly. That's what I'm saying. He's pretty much a man w/o a starting position for us.... perhaps like how McDaniel was in Jax, no?
I'm gonna pretend I didn't even read this post. It's ridiculous to base your assessment of a player off one game where Clemsons's DC, KEVIN STEELE, was completely out-schemed by WVU just as he had been all year vs non pro-style offenses. That's why he was deservingly fired. Clemson didn't get blown out b/c they lacked defensive talent, bro. They got blown out b/c their DC was one dimension, couldn't adapt to spread offenses with mobile QBs, and stopped teaching his team how to tackle. And who cares if Irvin only has 1 move. What's that matter? They get coached in the NFL, right? Irvin has elite talent, great work ethic, is a solid team player, and will take well to coaching so I don't see a problem here. The guy has a natural ability to get after the QB along with a burst similar to Von Miller's, and that's what matters.
I wouldn't go that far. If we are truly moving towards more of a 4-3 base then there is bound to be subtraction. Talking about 3 positions becoming 2. We still have Starks/Odrick/McDaniel in the middle. Starks also does most of his damage from the interior as is. Odrick will be a force in the interior pass rush. How he does against the running game remains to be seen. A lower cost presence could be brought in also to challenge for a spot (or they could bring back Merling). So basically from a 3-4 to a 4-3 you subtract 2 DT types and add 2 4-3 DE types. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if they target a FA and still draft 2 DE's. The plus side is we should be pretty strong at LB in a 4-3. Dansby/Burnett should both be able to play 3 downs if ever needed. Plug Luke Kuechly into the middle and that core would be fierce. Only problem with drafting Luke Kuechly is the fact we really need DE's bad (Much more so then a RT). This is where I'd love to see the team just blow a load of cash and plug in Mario Williams as the free agency centerpiece. I could see that happening cause lets face it. Miami realistically has a couple holes on the OL plus a couple holes at DE. Add in 2nd WR, TE, a MLB need for a 4-3 and a safety overhaul and you just aren't getting that all done in the draft.
Outside of QB, DE is the most important need of this team bar none..... probably 2a & 2b to be honest (2b also including pass rushing SOLB hybrid) with re-signing Soliai sandwiched in there somehow. Paul & Odrick become the DT pair for a long time to come; we eventually let Starks & McDaniel walk; and in the meantime work on finding their replacements on the cheap via the draft.
Soliai isn't coming back. Just isn't happening. I'd rather put that money into going after Mario. Factor in the cash we will need for a QB and this team is tight up against the cap. Then you realize you have Jake Long and others as FA's after the season and the cap noose suddenly tightens.
I don't see any of the three you mentioned, Starks/Odrick/McDaniels, being nearly effective in the middle as Soliai. I am also not nearly as high on Odrick as some on here appear to be. I also think Langford would be a BIG loss along the defensive line. As far as Merling goes, he has been a wasted pick since he came to the Dolphins and I can't see them wanting to spend another dollar on him. I just see the Dolphin defense taking a big step backwards next season because of the loss of Nolan as the DC. Losing Soliai and Langford will only make matters worst, as far as I am concerned. As far as drafting DE's is concerned. I could certainly see the Dolphins going in this direction but just because they draft a DE or two doesn't mean these draft picks will come in and be productive. All you have to do is look at the production of Odrick, to understand that drafting a defensive lineman in the first round does not assure immediate success. He was injured during the majority of his rookie season and only had one tackle in that season. Last year he had only 20 tackles and 2 assists, with six sacks. This averaged out to less than 2 tackles a game for a player who was drafted in the first round. Personally I just don't get why anyone thinks he is anything but a mediocre defensive lineman in the NFL. I would much rather the Dolphins sign Soliai and Langford and get rid of Odrick and Merling.
You think 6 sacks from basically a DT position is insignificant? You've still yet to say WHY Langford would be this "big loss" you keep professing. Please explain b/c I simply don't see it. By the way, the guys in the NFL are bigger, stronger, and faster than they are on college. Not sure if you knew that so I figured I'd point it out. Young defensive tackles typically don't bust out overnight. It's quite hypocritical of you to condemn Odrick while praising Soliai when Odrick is significantly further along after his 2nd year that Soliai was. How long did it take Soliai to become the player you're clamoring for us to keep? hmmm? I'm glad you're not our GM or else the rest of the league would be feasting on talented players that we give up on prematurely. No offense, but it's the truth.
You realize we need 2 starting DTs, right?.... and why are you essentially comparing a nose tackle to defensive tackles?
I would mention that Odrick spent a good deal of time at DE. While he is probably best at DT as opposed to DE saying it was basically a DT position is a bit of a half truth.
I suspect it is b/c the NFL is catching up to the fact you have to have 4 DL who can get after the passer, not Lb's who cannot cover well enough to make a base 3-4 as effective as it once was, thusly the hybrid. As for the DW III, would just like to point out, Coples is not a good enough athlete to go at #8, this is not Demarcus ware Jr.
Even if half his time is at DE he's still basically a DT playing end, no? My point is, as you said, he's more of a DT than an end, especially not a pass rushing DE, so for anyone to criticize a guy who is essentially a DT for only having 6 sacks is a little unreasonable IMO. And when Odrick's in a deep & talented rotation I don't expect him to have a ton of tackles either, do you? What should matter is that he contributed to a very strong run defense, finished the season with 3 sacks in his final 4 games, was ranked as a top 20 DE, and (without me even looking at everyone's stats or total snaps played) I'm guessing Jared's combination of 6 sacks and 8 QB hits were tops among our big men up front, and those numbers might even be good enough for top 10 among all DTs. If we resign Soliai, he's gonna need a neighbor who can apply some pressure, no? Would you rather it be Odrick(or Starks) or Langford?
I see what you're talking about but I don't think it's a BIG detriment. I think some of the plays where it looks more notable, there might've been a little extenuating circumstances.
I see what you mean with Irvin but to me he's got the forward explosion to work off to where he can add more polished secondary moves.
You don't have to sell me on Odrick. The guy is a player. He may have been in the league for two years, but IIRC he played some of the first half of the first game and then I think he injured his leg. He didn't play at all his first year due to injury. He was effective last year and if gets a chance to go inside in an aggressive scheme he'll be a damn good player.
