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Manning not throwing like an nfl quarterback yet

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by pumpdogs, Feb 8, 2012.

  1. BlameItOnTheHenne

    BlameItOnTheHenne Taking a poop

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    LOL this gets me every time.
     
  2. pumpdogs

    pumpdogs Well-Known Member

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    Chad penningtons arm was good enough to get us a first round playoff beatdown.His lack of arm strength later in his career was never going to be good enough to lead a team to the the superbowl.
    If you remember we had the easiest schedule in the league that year and the surprise of the wildcat didn't hurt either.The following year before he got hurt I think we started out 0-2 or 0-3
     
  3. gafinfan

    gafinfan gunner Club Member

    It doesn't fit with what the negative ninnys want to push as their agenda!
     
  4. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    This kind of injury often results in very inconsistent physical strength. That was the report out of Indy a week or two back. About a month ago I talked about how when Marino came back after his pinched nerve, his issue was that he couldn't rely on his arm. He could make the throw on one series and the next series it betrayed him. You can't adjust to that. Some want to pretend that all the negative reports are part of an agenda and that the optimistic ones are the truth. That just ignores the realities of this injury.
     
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  5. PhinGeneral

    PhinGeneral PC Texas A&M, Bro Club Member

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    I think we're getting off-track a bit with the noodle-arm thing.

    As Raf pointed out, it's a matter of consistency, and by extension, accuracy. Comparisons to Pennington are off-base because Chad and the coaching staff knew and understood his limitations, and those limitations were consistent ones. Not knowing what you're going to get from one series to another is a whole other matter, and that will be where the mistakes are made.
     
  6. The G Man

    The G Man Git 'r doooonnne!!!

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    It's still too early to make a rational decision on Peyton and his recovery IMHO. This situation is akin to a baseball pitcher rehabbing from a major arm/shoulder injury. Assuming he can be rehabilitated, I believe he has the drive and will to see it through and get to a point where he can once again compete at very high level. Will he ever possess the arm strength he had pre-injury. I'm beginning to think that is unlikely. But, I'll bet that brain is as strong as ever!
     
  7. KB21

    KB21 Almost Never Wrong Club Member

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    Yeah. The thing is, that will not matter much if the signal isn't getting from his brain to his arm.
     
  8. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I mean no disrespect, but is there a link to that report? I'd very interested in reading it.
     
  9. The G Man

    The G Man Git 'r doooonnne!!!

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    Point is, much like Pennington, you can compensate to some degree for weaker arm strength by making good reads and decisions. This is something most aging QB's have to do anyway. It's the natural order of things. Older QB's (generally speaking) lose arm strength. Favre is about the only QB I can remember that really didn't have to adjust his play late in his career.
     
  10. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    It was in the Indy star a week or so ago.

    I certainly am not a doctor, and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but it seems to me that any arm chair diagnosis of Peyton is irresponsible. We just don't have the information.

    Until the other teams see him throw, look at the charts, talk to the doctors, talk to the rehab people, etc., nobody can make a prognosis. If the nerve regenerates, and it obviously has started to or he couldn't throw at all, I don;t see why he won't return to relative normalcy at some point.

    It's simply a question of working out the tricep, which atrophied while he couldn't do anything. There are 7 months until opening day. I'm sure he can get it back at least close to where it was before.
     
  11. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    I looked the Star's web site and couldn't find an article that says he anything other than he has arm strength concerns.

    Again, if he can only throw as hard has Penny, I say sign him. If he's having the issue Raf said, then I need to know more.
     
  12. The G Man

    The G Man Git 'r doooonnne!!!

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    This is my position as well. We just gotta wait and see what happens. That said, if he hits the open market (very likely), and is willing to sign a performance based contract (and, he's apparently already indicated as such), and I'm Ross, I go after him. Period. End of story. BUT...I do so with the appropriate contingency plans in place (i.e., continue to develop Moore, and draft the best QB prospect according to round/grade available). I think we can compete with Moore. I think we can contend with a healthy Manning.
     
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  13. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    It came out right after the press release from Peyton's doctor saying Peyton was cleared. Somebody posted the link to an Indy response saying that there was "no news" b/c Manning was still so inconsistent. I read it on this site. I don't recall if it was in the main forum or in the club.
     
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  14. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

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    Couldn't that mean he was throwing like himself one second and like Penny the next?
     
  15. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    This can be spun either way depending on if you're a glass half full / half empty person.

    GOOD NEWS: He's throwing the football and working out!!!

    BAD NEWS: He's not 100% yet, and inconsistent!!!!

    Nobody knows where he will be in September. Those of you speaking like you have any idea are guessing or are NFL doctors.
     
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  16. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    From people I've spoken with and from what I've read, in cases where you don't have that immediate nerve regeneration some loss of motor function is the norm. Basically, the nerve has to grow and reconnect. We can't control where it goes or where it reconnects. And it's not one connection, its literally thousands. There is always some percentage of those connections that are lost due to either non-regneration or connecting to the wrong tissue. This results in inconsistent muscle contractions. It really isn't a question of whether Manning will have less motor function during at least that first year, IMO that is a given. I see the question as whether or not he will have enough connections to compensate eventually. I investigate worker's compensation claims and I see things like this quite a bit. As I have been saying for months, once that nerve didn't regenerate immediately, his recovery to anywhere near his previous level became a long shot. This is not one of those minor cases where 76% come back, usually in a few weeks. Once the nerve doesn't regenerate immediately, all we can do is wait and hope. Manning may make it back, but IMO we have better odds of drafting the next Brady in the 6th round this year than we have of getting a healthy Manning this year.
     
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  17. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Or somebody who has seen several nerve injuries and/or learned from others who have seen/had nerve injuries. If you play the lottery I can't tell you whether you'll win or not, but I can make a judgment that your odds of winning aren't good. Manning may come back and light up the world this season, but the odds of that aren't good.
     
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  18. VanDolPhan

    VanDolPhan Club member Club Member

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    Just as long as the team does it's due diligence. I don't want to see this team end up in a Brees situation again where we pass due to health, and then Manning tears it up for 3-4 more years.
     
  19. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    That's the problem. In the next 30 days or so there's no due diligence that is likely to be possible. Short of a miracle recovery, all the doctors will be able to say is, the structure is fine so he's at no greater risk of injury and we're waiting for the nerve to regenerate. In the cases I've seen or heard about, you either get that immediate regeneration and you're back in a few weeks (as the original reports in May were saying) or you have a more severe injury. I've never heard of those severe injuries coming back inside of a year and many never do. Obviously, I haven't seen every case, but it seems pretty clear that any of the severe injuries that return that fast are likely anomalies. Short of some miracle recovery where he suddenly has his strength back consistently in the next 30 days, I just don't see this as anything more than a bad bet. Manning is one of my favorite players, so I hope it doesn't go that way, but I also realize that that is just hope not a reasonable expectation.

    edit: Also I wouldn't characterize the Brees situation as one where the team didn't do it's due diligence. It also wasn't a case where our medical staff just screwed up. They got multiple doctor opinions and all but one said he wasn't likely to come back. Now that one was the doctor who did the surgery. Personally, I wanted Brees, but I don't know what call I would have made if I had all the information they had. In that case the Saints didn't do their due diligence, they just took a chance. Maybe this situation is analogous for some. I don't think it applies just b/c in the Brees situation you had half of his career left if the chance paid off. I think that even if you're right by taking a chance with Manning that you get maybe two of elite play. And that you pass up on some pretty good prospects for the short term fix. I generally believe that just thinking short-term is a mistake. I may be willing to just take a chance, but it would be on something that was a long-term solution.
     
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  20. Frumundah Finnatic

    Frumundah Finnatic U Mad Miami?

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    Tannehill is all but a certainty if we land Manning.
    and he wont last until the third.
     
  21. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Appearing on Bill Simmons' BS Report, NFL Network's Mike Lombardi said people who are catching Peyton Manning's (neck surgeries) passes as he rehabs say Manning not only lacks velocity, but can't throw to his left.

    "He can't throw the ball," said Lombardi. "I've talked to people who've caught the ball for him. He can't throw the ball to his left. He can't throw the ball across his body, because he doesn't feel it. People that catch the ball for him say he doesn't really have velocity on the ball yet." Lombardi is skeptical of any franchise hinging its hopes on Manning. The hope, of course, is that Manning will regain feeling in his arm as the nerve regenerates.

    Source: Bill Simmons BS Report Feb 9 - 11:09 AM

    http://www.rotoworld.com/sports/nfl/football?r=1
     
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  22. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Nice job on this situation thus far Raf..been very accurate in your analysis..
     
  23. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Ok, when did Lombardi talk to these people and when did they catch the balls for PEyton?

    Yesterday? A week ago? A month ago?

    Without those details the report is meaningless. Peyton has left Indy and gone to Duke to throw with the Duke players under the supervision of David Cutcliffe.

    So, the report by Lombardi changes nothing for me. We need to know what Peyton can do now, and the trajectory of how he's been improving. Then you can analyze where he will be in a month, two months, August, etc.
     
  24. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, but really all I've said is what's obvious. I didn't start looking at this like a Dolphin or Manning fan. I was looking at this for fantasy football purposes back when the lockout ended. In fantasy football mode it's easier to be objective. I was told back then that if the nerve doesn't regenerate immediately it will most likely be at least a year and maybe never. And my impression was that we're now talking a year from when the nerve starts regenerating b/c the delay indicates a more serious injury with more regeneration required. When Manning had the surgery in December, the clock started again. While some of it is my experience, most of it was just talking to some very smart people who weren't even football fans. I think the people who are nay-saying every negative report are just ignoring the facts of this injury. Manning may beat the odds, but the odds against him playing well this season are very long.
     
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  25. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Not trying to be snarky, just asking an honest question: Do the people you have seen with nerve injuries have the best doctors in the world working on them? I'm guessing most don't. From what I've heard listening objectively to people on both sides of the issue is that these injuries are very complicated things and it's impossible to know what will happen. So I'll agree with you that there is risk. But to make any claims about percentage chances, etc. is just guessing. These injuries can be completely different from person to person.
     
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  26. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Article regarding Chris Weinke. Weinke's injury was worse than Manning's. It occured November, 2008. He returned 8 months later in July for practice. 4 months of recouperation, 4 months of rehab.

    Peyton's final procedure, which caused the nerve issue in the first place, was in early September with a recovery time of four months until he could start rehabbing. That was December and he started throwing on schedule. It then took Weinke another 4 months before he returned to normal and then won a Heisman trophy.

    If Peyton is following Weinke's timeline, which he seems to be, then Peyton should return to normal sometime in March or April at the latest. If people had given a crap about Chris Weinke and were following his rehab every day, it's certainly possible that in May or June he could've been described as "noodle armed". Yet he was allowed to rehab in peace and without scrutiny.

    I see no reason to fold before the cards have even been dealt in this case.
     
  27. FinSane

    FinSane Cynical Dolphins Fan

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    Drew Brees recovered from his neck issue too.

    But these kind of injuries are not like tearing your ACL, every neck/arm injury is unique. Comparing Mannings injury to others with similar injuries are still like comparing apples to oranges, whether in support of Manning coming here or not.
     
  28. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I understand that everybody is different. It is certainly possible that Manning never heals.

    But in making a determination of whether you should sign him or not, it makes no sense to make that decision now, based on media reports that he can't throw to his left. It should be absed on actually having the information and seeing for yourself where he is in the rehab process
     
  29. texasPHINSfan

    texasPHINSfan New Member

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    Ok, but besides all that....

    He'll still be 36
     
  30. FinSane

    FinSane Cynical Dolphins Fan

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    Agreed either way, but we cannot afford to wait and see if and when he is healed. Free Agency starts next month and then the Draft is in April. We can't afford to sit on our butts while the rest of the league goes around snatching up every available QB. Let Wash., Sea., Cle., and Arizona deal with this. Plus as other have pointed out, he's gonna be 36 come September.
     
  31. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The signing involves some element of risk. It's just a matter of how much you can tolerate.

    And if Manning is healthy, he is by far the best option and I'd rather have him for 3 years and try to win the SB, then Matt Flynn for 7 years. It's a no-brainer. You can still plan for the future. You can win while developing a young QB.

    I'm just tired of writing off seasons before they even start, which is waht we'll be doing if we stick with Moore and draft Tannehill. Flynn is an unknown.
     
  32. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The point Ive learned during the past couple weeks is that is doesn't matter how great his doctors are, nor how hard he's willing to rehabilitate, there is a physiological change that must take place first..That system must create on its own..
     
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  33. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    You don't think that's reaching a little bit?
     
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  34. FinSane

    FinSane Cynical Dolphins Fan

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    Except to Philbin, he knows more about Flynn than any of us, and than Ross and Ireland. If Philbin thinks we can win with Flynn, I'd break the bank for him. Not much different than drafting a QB.
     
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  35. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    You're right, and that's the part that's going to vary player to player, person to person. I won't argue with anyone that there will be risk involved in signing Peyton Manning. I just don't agree with anyone who is going to try and narrow it down to some kind of arbitrary percentage.

    My personal thought is roll the dice on Peyton Manning and mitigate the risk by drafting a QB in the first round and keeping Matt Moore. That way worst case scenario - Manning isn't ready and neither is the rookie, we have a guy who played pretty alright last year ready to go. There's your worst case scenario. With that in mind, why not take a chance on potentially landing a healthy Manning?
     
  36. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Not at all CK.

    In fact, since Lombardi didn't specify when these guys actually did the cataching I'd assume that it was awhile ago.

    Simply, if these guys had caught from Peyton yesterday and reproted such to Lombardi it would be a much bigger scoop and a much bigger story. Since he said nothing, he either doesn;t know which seems unlikely, or he chose not to reveal that information as it would make his report far less interesting.

    Think about it, if he says "Well I spoke to some guys who caught balls from Peyton in early January and he couldn't throw left, but they haven't worked with him since and I haven't heard about recent sessions" would anybody have cared about the story?
     
  37. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Considering Chris Weinke's lack of football talent and tools after that surgery, I'm not really sure if that's the comparison Peyton Manning fans want to shoot for...
     
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  38. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    To each his own but I think to suggest that Lombardi spoke with guys that caught passes from Peyton a month ago comes off as argumentative and contrarian.
     
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  39. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    How did his talent or tools change?

    I went to fSU and either was present at, or saw every game Chris Weinke played. There was no discernible difference between what he did before he got hurt or after, and in fact, nobody even brought up the injury following his return. I had forgotten that he even had that injury.

    Like I said, if anybody had cared at all about what Chris Weinke was doing in early 1999, I'm sure there would;ve been breathless reports that he was "noodle armed" or "couldn't throw left" during the process. But there wasn't any of that reporting because nobody cared.

    But because it's Peyton Manning, and he might be a free agent, we have sources coming out the yin yang.
     
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  40. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    The devil is in the details on these things Chris. It makes a difference when the guys Lombardi talked to worked with Peyton.

    And it doesn't even really matter since he's not likely to be a free agent for another month, at which point any teams inetrested will get a chance to see for themselves.

    I don't see why we should fold before the cards are even dealt. We'll have at least a week to study Peyton before real free agency starts. See your cards then make a decision.
     
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