Anyone Still Think Matt Ryan Is the Franchise QB That Got Away?

It is simple really, 1st rnd picks im my opinion should bring game changers to your team, well it is what we hope for anyways, whether or not they are a bust is to be determined. Jake Long bless his heart is an awesome player but the man cant win us games due to the position he is playing.

 

the fact you don't see the direct impact of jake long's position, doesn't mean he can't win any games for us, or hasn't done so.

 

Here is a great example, go research New Orlean Saints OL, amazing offensive line, creates run big lanes, they are shifty and provide AMAZING protection for Drew Brees. Not one of those guys were selected in the 1st rnd infact all of them were selected in the 4th round or higher. They get the job done and Saints didnt have to waste a 1st rnd pick to get it done. Brees is the playmaker.

 

I'm not sure anyone is actually saying Flynn is definitely a franchise QB. I think they are saying he COULD be, and he could be gotten for no draft picks.

 

That doesn't mean they don't have a direct impact on the game, as you stated they would not above.

 

I am sure SEVERAL are saying he is a franchise QB simply stuck behind Rodgers. Others are saying he COULD be. The price is the only issue, you are correct. Buts its the basis of why they are saying it. Its mostly based on stat outcome (of one game too) and not if he really fits here, or if we have the talent to let him duplicate that here, or the coaching system is in place, or a whole lot of actual variables that matter.

Listen, it just cracks me up when folks claim one way or the other and fall head over heals for someone. Its the typical short attention span generation of immediate gratification.

Its just funny how I have seen threads go lately....of course the MODERN Dolphins have been disappointing, and of course this is a forum for Fans to chat and discuss, but the typical "chase the latest sexy player" - or "bash some other player" is just funny, the more and more desperate we all become.

Not trying to hijack or derail the thread....but the OP question just made me laugh, etc. I apologize for taking it off track.

 

No fair, I didn't know you were counting idiots!

I agree. Except for Luck....and Julio Buckley.

 

That doesn't mean a whole lot. It's not as if the passing rule enforcement thing only effect certain quarterbacks.

If you go from 2000-2005, no 1st round QBs won and only two got there.

That's absolutely not what anyone is suggesting. You need to be judicious in doing so, especially if you might already have a quarterback.

If you do what you're suggesting, you will be incredibly unsuccessful both in terms of drafting quarterbacks and as a team.

What's the basis for that comparison?

 

No, it means plenty. When a rule makes passing the ball much easier, teams with great QBs are going to benefit and teams without QBs aren't going to be able to keep up. You can't just assume all QBs are affected equally by the rule changes. If a QB wasn't very good to begin with he isn't going to be able to take advantage of the rule changes as much as the better QBs. The franchise QBs can take advantage of them exponentially more. The big difference is that teams without the good to great QB could mask the weakness with strong running games and great defenses. With today's rules, those great defenses are handicapped to a point where even the best defenses struggle to slow down the best offenses.

What doesn't mean a whole lot is discussing QBs prior to 2005, because it's 2 different eras of football and the rules are being enforced much differently now than they were.

Doing what I'm suggesting will be unsuccessful? To keep drafting QBs till you find a franchise QB? Recent history and current trends suggest otherwise.

Comparisons for John Beck and Henne not being franchise QBs? How about any superbowl winning QB since 2005?

 

Elite? Yes. I'm not the only one saying it, the players do.

You're taking into account all the offensive line to rate Long? Pretty lame. I didn't know Jake played all 5 positions at the same time

As stated before Ryan depends on his running game to win games, when he's asked to carry the offense he fails, so yeah there's your average QB drafted top 3 overall.

If you consider the individual performance of each player it turns out like this:

Elite LT > Average QB

 

Its amazing how.arrogant our fanbase is. 4 seasons after they draft Ryan the falcons are looking for a piece or two to go after a championship and we are scraping the bottom of the barrel for coaching candidates and quarterbacks in the hope of making the playoffs. There isn't a GM or owner in the league that would exchange our success or future prospects for the falcons. They have a better chance at a title in the near future than we do. Ryan has been very good too, he wasnt great yesterday but he had shown the ability to play at a high level on this league.

 

This has nothing to do with arrogance. Ryan isn't going to lead that team to a SB. He wouldn't have lead us to one either. So, when faced with two players who ARE NOT going to get you
to the SB like Ryan or Long, then you pick the one that is best at their job.

 

Hmm so Ryan who has led his team to the playoffs in his first three years has no shot at a title while while our team that hasn't sniffed the playoffs in the last few years is better off? Arrogance, ignorance or stupidity take your pick.

 

Sigh.

You clearly believe Ryan is going to win a SB and you base that off going to the playoffs. Talk about stupidity or ignorance. No one is saying we're better, all we're saying is Ryan wouldn't have been a better pick for our team if the goal is to get to the SB. Now, if all you want is a couple of playoff loses, then yes, Ryan would have been a better pick.

Losing consistently in the playoffs is not a good thing. Its bad for the future of the team, unless you still go for a top rated QB every year.

You also seem to think if we didn't draft Long and instead drafted Ryan we would have the team losing by only scoring 2 pts in the playoffs this year.

 

Miami hasn't had the running game for Ryan to take them to the playoffs

 

And Ryan would have led the dolphins to the playoffs? The contention is that he isn't good enough to make that big of a difference for this team. We need more than Ryan, particularly if we had no Long at LT. If you don't have an elite QB, the rest of the O better be stacked. Did Ryan look that much better than Moore this year? Factoring in how much of a better team Ryan had around him, I'd say the first few starts for Moore Ryan was better, but after that, not so much. Would the Dolphins be in better position now with Ryan or Long on the team? I don't see it as arrogance, ignorance, or stupidity to think that the answer is Long. With Ryan I think we'd be in the same position looking for a QB, only without Long at LT. How is that better?

 

It's just as ridiculous to state Matt Ryan will never win a superbowl than to state he definitely will. Nobody knows for sure. The story of his career isn't over yet. Yeah, his playoff record isn't great. But 3 games isn't a big enough sample size. Especially when he's demonstrated success in the regular season.

We fall victim to judging a player's entire career around their last game. Jury is still out.

 

You don't take a shotgun approach to any position. And you especially don't do so and constantly downgrade other positions in the meantime.

 

He has displayed enough in his entire time in the league to show me he isn't going to be the reason the Falcons ever win the SB. If he gets a ring it will be because somewhere along the line Atalanta acquires an all world defense. He has proven to be no better than 100's of other QB's who haven't won.

 

To me this conversation has nothing to do with Ryan persay..I was under the impression that if the poster had the left tackle rated elite and the best QB prospect rated not nearly as good, and he still took the QB, that philosophy is what I'am arguing..lol

 

There are NFL GMs who disagree with you. It's the most important position by far on the football field and it's getting to the point where having significantly greater talent at other positions won't mask weakness at the QB position. So many GMs feel you have to start with QB and go from there. And you keep trying till you get it right. If you can't win in today's NFL without a good QB, what good does it do to ignore the position?

 

Most Gms also try to do it efficiently. So no they don't take the shotgun approach with the qb position. Trying to get someone you think will be good and failing, is different from just taking someone you think will be ok in the nfl versus someone you think will be good in the nfl.
And no ones talking about ignoring the qb position. But you don't ignore other positions in the process otherwise you get a system that doesn't work. I think people over vaule the qb position on here. Even if you think its strictly a pass league, which I find debate able, you will eventually not be able to mask your failings in the system merely with your qb play.

 

Define what you mean by shotgun approach. Because there are GMs out there, I think probably most GMs out there, will draft a QB at some point in the draft, or acquire one via free agency if they don't feel they have a franchise caliber QB currently on the roster. And I would argue ALL of them try to do it efficiently.

You can certainly debate whether it's a passing league or not, but there is more and more mounting evidence every year. We'll see who wins this year. A system that doesn't work is a system that doesn't have a QB. Plain and simple. You have to find that franchise QB and build the team around him. In my opinion, and the opinion of at least some GMs, doing things any other order doesn't make sense.

 

We're still arguing hind sight.

The thinking was, among the teams and draft evaluators, there were 4 QB's who could make the jump from NCAA to NFL. In order of readiness: Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Brian Brohm/Chad Henne.

The Falcons had two first round picks and guys like Roddy White, Eric Weems, Michael Jenkins, Alge Crumpler, Abraham, Hall, Grimes, Brooking, Boley, Houston, 3/5 of their O-line set (Dahl, Clabo, Blalock), Dunn, Norwood, Mughelli.

The Dolphins had Cobbs, Camarillo, Carey, Porter, Taylor (traded?), Martin, Allen. On the IR list, they had Crowder, Bell, Brown, Williams, as players who came back.

We had nothing. The reason the Failcons went 4-12 was because they had a talented team, with Joey Harrington at QB in 2007. We had no talent.

When the Dolphins got into the draft, they new they'd need a QB, but they had exactly ONE offensive lineman from the season before. ONE. Hedging our bets, we took the best O-lineman in the draft in 2008, then we were going to draft one of the four NFL possible QB's. Ryan went third, Flacco went 18th, and Brohm went 57th. We got Henne only because Brohm went the pick right before. We took Long, got Henne, drafted Shawn Murphy in the fourth round, then Thomas in the sixth. Thankfully Thomas panned out, because with all of the slots on the team needing to be filled, we could not afford to have to sign or trade for 4 O-linemen.

If we had gone out and taken Matt Ryan, we could not have gotten Sam Baker like they did, who really isn't that great. Here's our depth chart had we taken Matt Ryan and followed the rest of the plan. I will add in the next person drafted after Henne, who was a position of need. Every X is someone who had to be brought in through Trade/Free Agency. Who knows if we would have signed Pennington considering Ryan was opening day ready.:

Mainly starters, second string for important positions/big contributors:

QB: Matt Ryan, Josh McCown
RB: Ricky Williams, Ronnie Brown, Patrick Cobbs
FB: Lousaka Polite
WR: Ted Ginn, Davone Bess, Greg Camarillo, Dexter Jackson (Henne slot)
TE: X, David Martin
LT: X
LG: Donald Thomas
C: X
RG: X
RT: Vernon Carey

OLB: Joey Porter X
ILB: Channing Crowder X
DT: Paul Soliai
DE: X, Kendal Langford, Phillip Merling
CB: Andre Goodman, Will Allen, X, Jason Allen
FS: X
SS: Yeremiah Bell

Every X was someone who had to be brought in. We needed to come out of the draft with less X's. We did. Turns out Henne didn't pan out.

The people who keep pretending like they did exhaustive studies of Henne in college saying they always knew his flaws, etc., should really blow it out of their arse. Same with their evaluations of Ryan. It's all pretend. You don't earn points pretending on the internet.

 

If you are right then in the next draft 20 of the first round draft pick should be quarterbacks.

 

We wouldn't be looking for a Qb if we had Ryan. He's played very well in his career and his team has been more successful than ours its not really questionable outside of dolphin fan boards. And for the record I love Jake long hes a beast.

 

Last time I looked you have to make the playoffs first. Ryan gets his team to the playoffs which gives his team a shot we have has no shot in 3 years so it is what it is. I think Ryan is good enough to win a title he's not Rodgers or brees but that's kind of a ridiculous standardif thats the case you're making.

 

I'm going to do this one more time:

Ryan career 88.4 passer rating, 7.0 YPA, 1 TD per 21.3 pass attempts, 1 INT per 44 pass attempts as a starter
Moore career 86.0 passer rating, 7.1 YPA, 1 TD per 20.6 pass attempts, 1 INT per 34.7 pass attempts as a starter

So exactly how is Matt Ryan good and worthy of the #1 overall draft pick and a better pick than Jake Long, and Matt Moore through 25 starts with almost identical numbers isn't good enough?

 

Stubbornness and Pride. People believe what makes them right, not what it right.

 

We were completely devoid of talent compared to the Falcons, in 2008, I do think the Falcons had a better run of talent acquisition then we have had over the 09-11 span of yrs.

 

shotguns aren't efficient. They just scatter shot in hopes you hit something. Drafting a matt ryan, or whomever, merely because they are a qb, when you don't think they are better then say Jake Long, pat willis, etc. Is a shotgun approach to me. It's neglecting other pieces of the system just to say you have drafted a qb.
there is also mounting evidence to the contrary. And to be honest, to think there is only one way to win in the nfl does not make a gm very good. In fact isn't that what many want the next coach to be able to do? To work with his players strength and weaknesses?

 

Notice I snuck into the post "at some point in the draft". Clearly if a GM is picking later and there aren't first round prospects available, and trading up isn't an option they have to take a guy in a round that makes sense, and the odds of success aren't as great historically speaking.

 

you already know the answer to this question. its the same reason why St. Louis is more attractive to Fisher because they have a franchise QB while the Dolphins don't even have a QB

it's circular. he is worthy because he was picked high, lol

only problem though is the Moore hasn't had a full season of starts on the team and the Dolphins haven't gone to the playoffs

Here is some hindsight: we could have traded the Chad Henne pick to Carolina for Moore in that draft and probably would have gotten better production out of that spot

 

Been reading the thread and just had to reply to this. We all know you can win a SuperBowl nowaday's with a good to great QB. Big Ben and Eli are proof of that. And to answer your question, I would love to have one of those two. Matt Ryan is not in their class, AT ALL. He has proven he has trouble with his accuracy and he hasn't been able to get up for the big game on the road. Eli and Ben both won the SuperBowl playing all 3 games beforehand on the road. Matt Ryan needs a running game. He can't take the team on his back in a big road playoff game and win.

That being said, I would still take Jake Long. Where would we be sitting today with Ryan instead of Long. We would have spent $75M on Ryan and not even tried to draft a QB due to the investment made in him. Seeing as how bad our line has been with Big Jake, imagine it without him. Ryan would have been out of the league due to brain hemridging. The right move was Jake Long over Matt Ryan.

 

So if you are in a situation where the 1st round quarterbacks grade closely to the 2nd round quarterbacks, but you draft early you should draft a low grade 1st round quarterback?

 

Ok, that's fine, it's your opinion and there is no way to know for sure how things would have played out. I disagree; I don't think we have had near the talent level here for Ryan to be as close to as effective as he has been in Atlanta. For your supposition to be correct the non QB talent would have to be close to equal for Ryan to have the same success. I just don't think it's fair, or correct, to say that those that disagree with your opinion must be stupid, arrogant, or ignorant.

 

If there isn't a trade down opportunity, and you feel good about the player sure. See: Andy Dalton. I know people will say he's not that good, but I liked what I saw out of him his first year. I'm no talent evaluator though. Just a fan hoping for a quarterback so my team can win.

I think that's exactly what the Titans did with Jake Locker. We'll see how that turns out.

 

It isn't about my opinion. The Falcons have a legitimate playoff team that will contend for their division and a title with a few pieces added in the offseason. We on the other hand, have major question marks all over the team talent wise, no leadership, no coach, front office questions and we have fans acting like the Falcons are the laughing stock of the league because they took Ryan over Long. We are the laughing stock team, not Atlanta.

Our front office and coaching staff have been overturned, our talent is not playoff caliber, our Qbs haven't sniffed a playoff game and we think we were smarter than Atlanta? Thats fine that you think our roster's talent wouldn't be enough to compete, but really I think if we started this season with Ryan we might very well have made the playoffs, look at how the team changed with Moore just making marginal strides over Henne, do you think Ryan wouldn't have been capable of doing that or more?

Ryan hasn't performed great in the playoffs but he is still a young player and there isn't any reason for Atlanta fans to think they won't contend for a playoff spot and/or the title, we however don't even have a coach, a direction or a defined starting Qb. And we made the right choice(s)? I don't think its a matter of opinion to think Atlanta has made the right choices and taking Ryan has helped them to be at a better place than us, I don't see this as an opinion, it looks matter of fact to me and I think anywhere outside of these boards and Phin homers it is fact.

 

Ryan isn’t the difference between Miami and Atlanta. Miami got better when the team started playing better. Moore did better once the blocking and run game got better. Henne was playing at a higher level than Moore was until he had about 4 starts, but the team as a whole was sucking. Ryan isn’t good enough to make a bad team good, or even a mediocre team good. He can play good with a great team. Miami needed much more than that.


I think we have the nucleus starting to form, but lets be realistic, what position other than LT, and maybe center this year would you not trade strait across with Atlanta on offense? Or, Defense for that matter, there aren’t many. Ryan doesn’t change that difference in talent. Ryan wasn’t that much better than Moore once Moore got going, and that’s on a way better team.

 

We hold a QB to account for the play of 11 people. Why can't be hold him to account for the play of 5?