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***Official 2011-12 MLB HOTSTOVE OFF-SEASON THREAD***

Discussion in 'Other Sports Forum' started by BigDogsHunt, Oct 29, 2011.

  1. Anonymous

    Anonymous Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    He won't dominate, but he'll be pretty good. His numbers against the NL reflect that.
     
  2. GreenMonster

    GreenMonster New Member

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    This will end badly for the Angles in the long-run no doubt. Not even sure this was a good short term answer for the amount of money spent.
     
  3. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    yes I do....you are right....When I say dominate I dont mean Verlander low 2 ERA..but yes he will pitch very very well there....especially seeing the NL's best hitter is now in the AL, and probably ditto for Prince....plus he has been doing it in the AL for years now..

    and to think you cant be a dominate pitcher without a plus fastball is foolish....watch the end of Schilling's career or Petitte...

     
  4. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Schilling, after his 2004 season, was never dominate again. The rest of his career was very mixed, he had I believe 1 good season and 2 so-so ones, mainly because the guy (like Pettitte) had plus control and had 4 pitches he could throw at any time for strikes but he was far from dominate.

    I do not believe that a pitcher without a plus fastball can be dominate, unless the said pitcher has one or two plus pitches (think Pedro after the 2002 season with his change up) or Rivera with his cutter. Still both of those guys could still throw 92 mph and obviously could miss bats.
     
  5. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    I think Greg Maddux would highly disagree with you....who pretty much dominated baseball for a long time with a mid-80's fastball.....

    but I agree RF, the likehood of success is higher obviously pumping heat...
     
  6. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    such a solid move....Friedman is so solid....

     
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  7. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    You mean the same Greg Maddux that's 10th all time in strike outs? The same Greg Maddux, who in his prime threw in the mid 90s? Sure at the end of his career he was throwing in the mid-80s but he also wasn't dominating then. When he was dominating he was throwing the ball hard and missing bats. There's some myth that Maddux didn't throw hard, he did. He also had outstanding control and had 4 plus pitches (which helped him be productive when he lost the velo on his FB).

    This is why the Rays FO is smart. If Moore pitches like everyone thinks he should, the Rays will save millions. If he blows out his arm tomorrow the Rays will lose 14 million over 5 years. The Rays get it. Why other clubs (especially the smart market ones) don't copy everything they do is beyond me.
     
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  8. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Yep, people recall soft tossing/crafty Maddux, reality was he threw mid 90's for most the 1990's.
     
  9. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    ehhh who needs CJ Wilson......:lol:

     
  10. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    Ughhh dude fine Tommy John then....my point is that you can throw 85-90 and be dominate.....there is more that needs to be taken into account then just velocity, and in the Burhele's case he has a shot.....

    And again peoples idea of dominate vary....some say 1978 Guidry, others say Halladay...etc etc...all I am saying is watching him pitch, given the parks in the NL, take AP and possibly PF out of that league....a very weak 6-9 in the line-up, would it shock you for him to pitch under a 3?
     
  11. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Greg Maddux and mid 90s in the same sentence? Maddux was dominating when he was throwing low 90s, I don't remember him ever throwing mid 90s really. I know one thing, even when throwing in the 80s, Maddux had a plus fastball. His 2 seam fastball had unreal movement on it.
     
  12. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Yes it would absolutely shock me. I expect mid 3s. Buerhle doesn't have Maddux stuff, so that convo can end now.
     
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  13. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    In 2002, he went 16-6 with a 2.62, dominate right?

    76.9% (85.8)

    according to fangraphs.....theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeenn it goes all down hill after that hahahahah
     
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  14. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    Okay you knarly baseball God.....shame on me for dare talking about something on a fan forum....
     
  15. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    Good. Were on the same page.
     
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  16. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Would it shock me? No, but I would bet the over. Plus since when is ERA a good qualifier if a pitcher is dominant? I don't think Buerhle will dominate in the NL, he doesn't have the stuff to do it. That's not to say I don't think he won't pitch well but he's not going to put up Josh Johnson or Clayton Kershaw numbers. Buerhle has always been a pitcher with an average fastball that works the corners and pitches to contact. He's never been able to miss many bats. So already that doesn't make him dominant in my eyes. For a pitcher to be dominant, he needs to get strike outs, otherwise he's relying on his defense and luck with the BABIP.

    And no I don't consider Tommy John dominating either, how was he? He doesn't have the large strike out totals, his ERA plus was never outstanding etc. Yes Guidry was dominant in 1978, Halladay still is dominant. And the absolute definition of dominant is Pedro Martinez from 1999-2000.
     
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  17. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    He threw 94-95ish in the early to late 90s when he was in his peak years with the Braves.
     
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  18. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

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    Yeah he was absolutely gross those years....in the roid era to boot.....remember the All-Star Game? Big Mac, Sosa, and who was the other...he struck out in like 9 pitches or something like that...
     
  19. Desides

    Desides Well-Known Member

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    What’s with this conversation using the word “dominate” in place of “dominant”? :lol: You can’t “be dominate”, but you can “be dominant”, in which case you would “dominate” the competition. Alternatively, you can “be dominated” by said “dominant” player who can “dominate” anyone. :shifty:
     
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  20. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    He may have touched 94 on occasion, but I don't recall him ever being consistent in the mid 90's with the Braves. 89-92 guy from what I remember and could reach back for 93-94 every once in a while.
     
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  21. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    Yes. It would shock the hell out of me. Also, even if Prince follows Albert to the AL, you're talking about a handful of plate appearance. Nothing indicative sample size-wise.

    There were only 8 pitchers in the NL with sub-3 ERA's. I understand the NL doesn't have the DH (for now), or the Yankees or Sox but they're still major league hitters.
     
  22. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    The AL 1st Base All-Star game selection process is insane!

    Hope most of the 1st Baseman do not have ALL-STAR bonus in their contracts.
     
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  23. BlameItOnTheHenne

    BlameItOnTheHenne Taking a poop

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    With Fielder's signing pending, too.
     
  24. HardKoreXXX

    HardKoreXXX Insensitive to the Touch

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    You gotta think Pujols gets the nod there, easily. New team, new league. Those other guys don't stand a chance.
     
  25. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Dude, it's Friday, my brain is fried as it is from the winter meetings. Haha.

    Seriously, I caught myself doing it in my last post and edited it before I sent it out. Was much too lazy to go back and re-edit things. But yeah I realize I ain't using the English language too good.
     
  26. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    I don't either to be honest with you but have actual read numerous articles debunking the Greg Maddux was a soft tosser myth stating that in his prime he could hit the mid 90s with his fastball. Needless to say even if he consistently hit 92 or 93, he was still dominant (correct usage Desides?) because the fastball was still a plus pitch due to movement and control to go along with his other plus pitches he used to get guys to swing and miss.
     
  27. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well the thing with Maddux was he'd take just a touch off of his fastball to generate pop flys, so it is hard to tell when he was reaching back, but he was a 93-95mph guy with great movement.
     
  28. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Besides the vote winner, I can easily see 3 extra 1B all making the AL team....LOL!

    P.S. NL-only Fantasy team drafts (in keeper or non-keeper) will have serious slim-pickens for 1B, whereas, AL-only riches will be abundant, and the first owner to 3 1B wins!
     
  29. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Tommy John WAS dominant, until, well, he had "Tommy John" surgery..:lol:

    Ron Guidry was actually a dominant picther, what I recall about him was he was this small lefty, he looked like he was 5'7 even on the mound, but he would just pound hitters on the inside of the plate with a plus fastball, and break a lot of bats.
     
  30. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Best line I have heard/read about Pujols to AL Angels.

    "Albert is no dummy, he knows what it means to face Houston Pitchers and wants to keep his career numbers way up there"!!!!:tongue2:
     
  31. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    How was Tommy John dominant? Never had a year where his K/9 was above 6.2 (career is at 4.3), averaged about a hit an inning, never had a high K total, wasn't a work horse (didn't throw a lot of innings considering in his era there were 4 man staffs). I just don't see it. Even his ERA + doesn't say dominant. I mean he had a good W/L record but that's a terrible way to judge a pitcher. His career ERA was pretty good but again wasn't dominant. Maybe it's just me but his overall numbers doesn't show it, even his best years don't scream dominant.

    Again if you want to talk dominant look at Pedro's 1997-2000 numbers. That's what I consider dominant. A lot of innings, tons of Ks, very few walks, insane ERA +, low ERA (again not a great judge), I mean everything about him in those years was just awesome.

    In my opinion for a pitcher to be dominant he needs to throw a good amount of innings, strike out a lot of guys, keep his walk total down, have a strong ERA +, xFIP, FIP, WAR etc.
     
  32. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Here we go, RF, going stat monkey and "wins are a terrible way to measure a pitcher"

    Of course, have with fun with that, BTDT.
     
  33. Mainge

    Mainge Season Ticket Holder

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    I think we're done here.
     
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  34. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Wow.....and this gets filed in the "just how can Anaheim toss all that money to Albert"!
    20yrs @ at least $3 Billion equals TV revenue of $150M per year! yoooowwwwzzzzzaaa!
     
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  35. Ray Finkle

    Ray Finkle Member

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    Love to hear you explain how the W/L record is a good way to judge a pitcher. I mean after all a pitcher can throw a no hitter yet still "lose" a game while a pitcher could give up 10 runs but still get a "win". The W/L is a function of the team, not of the pitcher. The pitcher has control of 3 things, K's, BB's and HR's allowed anything after that the pitcher is depending on his teammates.

    Case in point the past two seasons John Lackey, one of the worst pitchers in baseball, had 14 and 12 wins for a total of 26 wins, meanwhile Felix Hernadez, one of the best pitchers in baseball, had 13 and 14 wins for a total of 27 wins (plus a Cy Young). Lackey had 23 losses in those seasons combined (so he went 26 and 23) and Hernandez had a total of 26 losses (he went 27 and 26) want to tell me that W/L record is overrated now? Imagine how many wins Felix would have had on the Sox and how many Lackey would have had in Seattle?

    Yeah. Good call. I'm done with that debate. My above statement should settle things once and for all.
     
  36. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    Speaking of King Felix, my money is now on Felix landing in Pinstripes before the season is over as it relates to Seattle realizing their window is so small over the next few seasons with Albert and CJ in Anaheim, and Rangers battling back and forth.

    Jack Zduriencik will decide to trade off King Felix and Yanks farm system will be the difference for him to get something prior to King flying the coop anyway.
     
  37. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Well since we have been through this before, I'll keep it brief:

    Wins are what the starting pitcher's job is, you get them, or you do not.

    I do not believe there are moral victories in MLB, there are only W's and L's.

    Winning, or losing, that is all there is when it comes to performance RF.
     
  38. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

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    From the TEAM standpoint, yes its all about Wins over Losses.

    For starting pitcher, especially since the era 5-man rotation, and 7 extra arms of specialists via bullpens, setupmen, and closers; the Starting pitchers job is really to go deep and keep the team in place for the Win, but exit the game whether in the lead or tied or trailing by a run or 2, and turn it over to other arms to finish what was started. Thus, by definition is only about leaving a game as PITCHER OF RECORD for the rest of the team to hold and close it, and give the bats the chance to pull it out.

    Judging a Starter on Wins is becoming meaningless.....BABIP, and WHIP, and K's. and innings pitched even are far more important of Starters worth than whether or not he was AWARDED the statistic of a win. ERA isnt even meaningful unless defensive metrics are compiled and park effect to see what the UNEARNED RUNS were, etc.
     
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  39. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    BDH, wins are the fuel in the tank of the season, the rest of it, WHIP, IP's, etc, are merely the ingredients in the winning cake, it does not matter if there are no wins created.

    I've seen pitchers who I felt were absolute garbage win 15 games, they just found a way to pitch well enough to put the team in the position to win the ballgame, I've seen other pitchers who I thought were great talents, who just could not find a way to pitch well enough to win.

    Padres had a #1 overall pitcher named Andy Benes, he had an amazing arm, was barely a .500 pitcher, I've seen a Rick Reuschel, who stats wise was just not good win 15-18 games just by finding a way to get it done.

    Imo, this is one area where MLB has run off of the rails.
     
  40. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    So when a pitcher pitches a complete game 10 ks and only gave up 1 earned run, yet gets the loss....that's a bad start for you right?

    Ill wait for your response.
     

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