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Is the debate over Henne finished?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Bumrush, Sep 25, 2011.

  1. HenneNator

    HenneNator Banned

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    Ignorance is bliss. Look at the QB, because that is the lazy way to assess a team.

    Real fans know where the blame lies for this start. Defense and O line. Period.
     
  2. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Can't wait to get to a computer to see your join date. I think you were banned just yesterday for saying the same thing on multiple threads.....

    And 15 years on various Dolphins forums says that post has about as much maturity and insight as the years I have been discussing phin issues on phin forums.
     
  3. Nappy Roots

    Nappy Roots Well-Known Member

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    I'll save you the time, quite surprising actually: September 2011


    As for the defense losing yesterdays game....how so? Because they let the Browns drive in the end? Offense shouldn't of let it be close at the end. Offense was aided their only TD because of the defense giving them a short field. Did we forget that? If not for that defense we would of had only 9 points on offense. Yea, that's enough.
     
  4. HenneNator

    HenneNator Banned

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    Not sure what you are talking about. I look at common sense. We have WAY more problems on this team than QB, so far.
     
  5. DeDolfan

    DeDolfan Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Most any QB would be. It's what he does the rest of the time that will make or break him.
     
  6. Harmalama

    Harmalama Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    This
     
  7. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    What is is simplistic about this view is that it assumes that if we goty a qb all that ills teh offense is cured. Marshall has 2 td drops this season and one misread that could have been a bit of both on henne and marshall, all marshall or all henne. unless you know teh discussions you dont know who was supposed to what. So it is easy to say henne should have scored more, but unless you can show every red zone failure that he had open looks he completely missed it is impossible to say a new qb would have scored. The line has gotten henne killed in teh redzone, he hasnt had time to go through many reads. receivers have dropped balls. Mnay times its one run and pass pass pass. its as dumb as run run runr run pass. it becoes predictable.

    And to the poster who said we didnt lose because of henne but he was teh reason we didnt win, really? and I am supposed to believe that 2 things are diff statements? Henne didnt lose it, he didnt win it by his own hands no, but he played well enough to win. the defense did as well, but it is the offense as a unit isnt playing well. Maybe a qb does make everyone play better, but that is an elite qb, Orton aint it Cam Newton appears to be but we had no shot at him. Henne was the best option we had for what it would have taken to get the others and he is playing as well as they are individually.

    Oh and I have been on these boards since teh ESPN days before there were any individual fan boards. I dont see how someones join date has to do with intelligence.

    I think we all need to calm down, I know I did yesterday. I just dont see that changing 1 player changes our fortunes. Henne needs to take the next step before he can be considered after this season as teh qb, but teh offense as a whole has to stop shooting itself after it hits big plays
     
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  8. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Well allow me to explain then. This quarterback was protected in his first two years. He was max protected - which means that he had 6+ offensive personell blocking for him on every passing play. He was protected in that way because he would see more coverages in one game (in the NFL) than he had seen in an entire season at Michigan. Playing all those coverages increases the preperation time for a quarterback. It reduces the quarterbacks ability to make sound, consistent post-snap reads to have a chance to be effective. While some demanded "open it up" I saw the merit in grooming this quarterback the way he was groomed. Their jobs were not going to be left to happenstance from the quarterback position. He was going to know why he should and did do something on the field. Route patterns were controlled by the man upstairs. They were controlled upstairs because that was the only way to max protect the guy and run a pattern based upon the percentages of the defensive secondary. Dead plays were just dead plays. It was viewed as better than not protecting the guy and placing all of the burden upon him. For whatever reason the guy was never viewed as passing the test. IMO it was when the team had no other choice (because they were chasing points versus a clock) that they allowed him to prove himself........and he proved himself not worthy in that 2010 year.

    Victory Day

    2011 is victory day for those who claimed this thing needed to be opened up. The claim was that the gloves were taken off and we would now fight bare knuckles in a bare knuckles brawl. Well the gloves are off. There is no more max protection. And what do I find yesterday? I find a quarterback that faced man coverage. It was actually Cover 1 - one being the free safety for those playing at home. Now this quarterback roasted man coverage when he was in max protection. I remember it fondly. But here yesterday we find ourselves versus man without max protection and he struggles.

    Now there is a difference between the cover 1 in the middle of the field and cover 1 in the red zone. In the red zone the defense get an extra defender - the end zone. Some may say that's two extra defenders. Nonetheless there is a lineage between what was witnessed yesterday and our (all season) red zone struggles.

    By all accounts we are now spreading the field. We've got 2x1 formations, 3x1 and 2x2 formations going on everywhere on every down. Here is what the defense told me yesterday about the middle of the field.

    Why did they tell me that? Because when it came to crunchtime they sat in cover 1 cheating to Brandon Marshall's side. Post snap the free safety moved to the middle of the field. But the pre snap read was "I want to play over Marshall." What proceded next was futility. So what did the D coordinator just say? He said:

    "I have superior personell and can dominate your receivers."

    Do you think that is what he thought? I tend to believe that isn't the case.

    He said:

    "I'm going to blitz and all that you have time for is an easy quick route."

    He said:

    "I'm going to take away your multi-level flood routes that contain easy hi/lo reads."

    He said:

    "I'm going to take away the hitch, the quick out, and the slant."

    In all of this the D coordinator said:

    "I will disrupt the QB/receiver timing and put pressure on the QB's read sequence."

    Now YOU take a look at what the D coordinator said during crunchtime with 45 seconds left. YOU take a look at our struggles in the red zone. YOU tell me where Chad Henne has succeeded and where he has failed...............and I will tell you that the book is out on Henne and this so called spread offense.
     
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  9. gamblerx

    gamblerx New Member

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    Was there a debate about Henne? We all knew Henne wasn't the answer since 2009.
     
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  10. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    The post and the intelligence it took to make it is the reference point. The well over a decade was cited as witness to every Tom, Dick, and Harry that has come around and LEARNED not to say things like that.
     
  11. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Again, he was playing well completeing 70%+ for most of teh game, laying balls out allowing receivers to make plays. The pass in teh endzone to Marshall was where it had to be or it would have been picked. Unless you break down teh play, the routes by each receiver, the protections and the progressions, you are projecting what you believe. Which is fine, but doesnt make it fact.

    Again most here would agree that henne isnt elite. But then when we judge him, we judge him based on the criteria we use to evaluate Brady and brees and manning. TO ME that is simply a utopian point iof view. We need to get an elite qb if we get that chance, ie in the draft. But outside Newton who has won me over, who we had no shot at, wo coud we have gotten that had elite potential this year?

    yes you can point tp Ryan and long, but its pointless, we cant go back. Henne is playing much better, he isnt making the dumb mistake, yes tds need to pick up, but at what Risk do you want Henne throwing it? Imgine what everyone would be saying if henne had 3 red zone ints?

    Orton? do you really believe that he would have brought sign increased production that what we gotten fro Chad? If you do, thats your choice, I dont. Especially factoring in the cost.

    Mallet? maybe, maybe not. He had his issues coming out under pressure, this line isnt protecting, so that is a crap shoot. Until teh draft Hennewas and is our best option.
     
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  12. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Gotcha
     
  13. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    Well then set the DVR and watch the game again on "short cuts." I will. Then make a case against it. And by "make a case against it" I don't mean change the subject to Ryan Mallet or Johnny Come Lately. I mean make a case against what I just said. What I just said happened on the field. It was NOT conjecture nor subject to it.
     
  14. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I think Matt Hasselbeck is showing that he was actually the best option for this year, FWIW...though I think he might have always been destined to join up with Chris Palmer in Tennessee.

    I just find it ridiculous this attitude that a quarterback should never be put in a position of having to perform even moderately well in a clutch situation in order to win a ball game. Yes, in this league if you're a good quarterback, you have to perform in those situations more often than not, and you have to put the ball in the end zone. Chad Henne's not done either of those things. The first game was clearly a defensive failure, but that offense has produced 30+ points against three defenses now this year and so 30+ points was probably fated, and what we really needed was for our offense to be able to keep up in the track meet against the worst defense in the NFL, like Buffalo did. We couldn't. The next two games were clearly offensive failures, and yet Daniel Thomas ran well.
     
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  15. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    The Henne apologists have gotten themselves so emotionally wrapped up and placed so much stock in Chad Henne but they really have no choice but to continually make excuses for his poor play.
     
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  16. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    And yet we're supposed to just accept that because Henne has an 82 passer rating this year as opposed to a 75 in 2009 and 2010, and because there are discernible, tangible improvements in his game...it must automatically be enough. Like we've finally found our man.

    Forget that.
     
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  17. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    LOL

    sorry again what did you prove through all that about Henne? So your opinions arent opinions they are fact because you slowed it down and watched shortcuts?

    Again dont tell me about what you believe teh defense was doing, you put alot of work into showing what you interpreted the dfense saying, but that is what you saw. I wont disagree with teh coverages, and all that, I saw henne completing 705 of his passes against that coverage.

    I am not going to rewatch teh game over and over so I can say that if he would have done this or that we would have scored. Cause if you believe you KNOW what and who was open that He missed then point that out but all your doing is showing off that you know what defense they were in, what coverages they were using, not how henne failed, you arent showing where within plays ran, where Henne missed open looks, open receivers. Sorry but there is no fact in what you project he didnt do based on coverages you saw. That is where the fact ends and opinion starts. you saw coverages, you interpreted those coverages and projected what that meant. But it is still opinion. I grant you that your opinion is based off solid foundation, but there is more than just what you put in there. separation by receivers, plays against it, time for routes to develop, option routes require correct reads by both qb and receivers. Direct pressure can disrupt everything.

    My point comes down to is the futility in teh redzone IMO is so bad it is too big to be one persons responsibility/fault. henne is not brees, nor manning nor mallet nor anyone else. To expect him to play based on the measure of what you see is pointless cause he isnt them.

    I was pointing out that short of elite qbs, the play of teh qb position from henne is as good as you were going to get fom anyone else we had a shot at. It isnt all on henne and NOTHING you stated proves it was
     
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  18. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    first off I havent seen anyone say that henne is the answer long term. Tht is an excuse to call names (apologists). yet if I say your a hater I a clearly bashing personally and projecting and balah blah.


    Anyway you can tell me til your blue in teh face, teh teams problems start and end with henne. Pure fantasy IMO
     
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  19. Zod

    Zod Ruler of the Universe

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    You said two things here but I must make a point of order about all this rambling you are doing......

    Did I say anything about the offensive plays in that post? Or did I say what the D coordinator must have thought by being in that coverage?

    Cheat sheet:
    I said nothing about the offensive plays.
    I said why a D coordinator would be in the coverage.


    Forewarning:
    Denial of what I actually said is a disregard of common coverage knowledge.
     
  20. HenneNator

    HenneNator Banned

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    I'm willing to see if he is our man, once we have an NFL caliber O line. Because we have the WORST line in the NFL right now.
     
  21. godolphins

    godolphins New Member

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    I know he had a good game but when we needed just 10 yards to get in FG range to possibly win the game he went AWOL. In comparison Colt McCoy led his team to a TD when they needed him to win the game. If we have a chance to draft Luck, Jones or Barkley it will be time to let Henne go because he's only a game manager.
     
  22. Trowa

    Trowa A world of pain

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    And yet no one is saying this team's problems start and end with Henne. To assume that is pure fantasy on your part. That's where this debate gets overly frustrating. Just because someone acknowledges that Chad Henne is not the answer at QB and that we need an upgrade at the position doesn't mean that person believes Chad Henne is the only thing wrong with this team. Of course the O-line is horrendous and the secondary play is bad and the pass rush is non-existant outside of Cameron Wake. We all know these things. The difference is some point to these things as the reason Chad Henne is not a problem and others recognize that these things are a problem in addition to Chad Henne.
     
  23. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    You mean the last drive? The one where his wr didn't catch a ball where we needed just 10 to get in FG range?

    Sure Henne could have done better , no doubt , but in the blame game , focusing on him is just wrong imo. He needs to improve , this team needs to score TD's in the red zone and finish last drives , agreed. That isn't at all ,all on him , imo.

    I have seen enough of an improvement to want to see if this continues trending positively .

    I am reminded about the book Dave Steib wrote entitled "Tomorrow I'll Be Perfect " ... yes Henne could have made a play that would have allowed an attempt for a winning FG , but the problem list doesn't start with him , imo.
     
  24. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    my point is this there is a belief that with all the problems if we had a diff qb, then the other ills will be masked and we would be winning. i think unless that qb was an elite qb, we wouldnt be much better off. if u can find an elite potential guy go get him. until then henne is playing as well as any other qb would in the same circumstances
     
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  25. Trowa

    Trowa A world of pain

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    Who believes that? Who's making that statement? I've been in this thread since page 1. I've read people say if you we had a better QB we would have won that game, and that is true. A better QB gets those 10 yards at the end. I don't care what led up to that or how it's not Henne's fault we were in that situation to begin with, a better QB gets those yards. That doesn't mean anyone believes that if we get Andrew Luck next year we're automatically Super Bowl bound. You're putting words in people's mouths just like damn near every other person on this board who wants to leap to the defense of Chad Henne. Mis-leading stats, finger pointing, blame shifting, and worst of all putting words in people's mouths and twisting their points around are the arsenal of the Chad Henne defender and it truly makes me ****ing sick.
     
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  26. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    If the real problem areas are addressed I don't dismiss the notion that Chad Henne can indeed be the answer.

    Not the Brady Rodgers level but below the exalted elite , where similar QB's have won big ? I don't see that he can't or won't be at that level. Not to count on it , and if you get the chance to draft an elite QB you do , but I would work on a new contract for Henne if I was GM of this team and I would properly address the signiciant issues this team has.
     
  27. schmolioot

    schmolioot Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Henne has improved from awful to mediocre. He is not that answer for a team that has any designs on making it to the super Bowl during his tenure. He is still terrible in all the areas where good Qb's, not just elite ones, make their money. In the red zone, on passes into the end zone and simply making plays when it's time to go out and win a game.

    To me, there is little point discussing Henne any further. It's over. Instead of attempting to find all stars at ten othe rpositions and then hope that he will be adequate enough to win 10 games, I'd rather try and find that elite guy and build around him.
     
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  28. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Umm. Did you read the title of this thread and the original post? Just asking.
     
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  29. dolfan22

    dolfan22 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    Funny that the number one pick overall can play poorly and have the direction of his play go in the opposite direction and the QB that can't get time to throw , that has his elite WR drop , not make TD catches , that has to have a third T instead of a TE that can gash teams like Miami continually gets cut up , and has dramatically improved doesn't get credit for playing as well as he has. Just my opinion.

    From what I have seen , I can't dismiss that Henne can or will continue to improve enough to be at the level below the exalted elite at QB , which to me is enough to win in the playoffs . To build around the desired elite QB won't happen until you have a competent GM and coach. That is the real issue , not Henne , imvho.

    They haven't shown they can do that , and haven't , to think Henne has been helped by them is stretching things as I see it.
     
  30. steveincolorado

    steveincolorado Spook, Storme & Pebbles

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    Funny thing is, Henne put us in a position to win and we were winning the game until our so-called top D feel apart again. But the haters don't see that.
     
  31. danloc04

    danloc04 New Member

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    Chicago thinks you're hilarious.
     
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  32. Trowa

    Trowa A world of pain

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    Funny thing is, Henne was put in a position to win us the game and couldn't get us 10 yards, once again choking with the game on the line which he is apt to do. But the apologist don't see that.
     
  33. muscle979

    muscle979 Season Ticket Holder

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    I wouldn't call allowing 17 points in today's NFL, 'falling apart'. You just have to move the chains in that last drive situation. There's something to be said for finishing. Ask an MLB pitcher. If they go out and pitch five scoreless innings and then get knocked around for five or six runs in the sixth do people say they had a good start? Would that pitcher tell you he had a good start?
     
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  34. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Double standard there. You didn't accept this rationale last season when Henne was playing with Bess, Wallace, Moore, Pruitt, Kevin Curtis, Shuler, Mastrud, and Epps while there were injuries to Marshall, Hartline, and Fasano.



    PS: you also left out Amendola and his 2nd leading receiver, Danario Alexander, who's not a terrible WR and has 1 of Bradford's 2 TDs..... And StLouis use a 2nd round pick on a receiving TE (Kendricks) whom I thought you were very high on.
     
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  35. JMHPhin

    JMHPhin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    well I am not putting words in anyones mout and double standards make me sick so we are even. There are many haters that believe Henne "didnt win" the game for us. That is teh same as saying he lost it. or implying that a better qb would have won it. spin it all you like but contrary to your beliefs not all apologists are stupid.

    I havent seen an argument to anything I have said. Only an attack on me bing an apologist or defender. LOL I find it hillarious. Do you think that if you post Hennes not teh answer enough we are gonna trade for one at this point? Henne is thee qb this year. So after every game point to things Henne didnt do to win teh game and discounting anything anyone else did is blaming Henne sorry. Not putting words in anyones mouth. Saying because Marshall made a tip toe catch excuses the drop in teh endzone is making an excuse for Marshall. yes it was a tough catch, but an elite receiver makes that more than he misses. When teh game is on teh line, the elite step up. Marshall is our elite but where is he in teh redzone? all I know is I saw 2 drops, 1 miscommunication that you can judge however you want, and 1 pass that Henne put it where only Marshall could get it and 1 throw Henne missed and threw poorly. Not in any order. But we want to make all that into Henne isnt good enough. To say he isnt good enough because we arent scoring in the red zone means the red zone issues are Henne problem because he is not good enough, that if the qb had made better plays the td would have resulted. Yet I have seen where anyone has shown in any specific circumstance what Henne was supposed to do and not at slow motion, from real speed with real pre4ssure to say what exactly Henne did wrong. You can point to the miscomm vs hou and the bad pass to Marshall vs NE and I wont disagree, but I could point to 2 Marshall drops and say that miscomm was as much on Marshall as it was on Henne.

    And you guarentee that any qb you perceive is better gets those 10 yards? You also surmise and blame Henne for the whole thing? Coverage had ) to do with it? pressure? No only henne isnt good enough? Whay arent you the coach?

    I guess what I am saying people can opine however they want but I can disagree whether it makes people sick or not
     
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  36. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    Yes, I'm quite sure you would see that as a double standard, even though it's nothing of the sort.

    PS: Amendola is gone for the year and has been since midway through Week 1, and I listed the top 3 receivers according to snap counts where Brandon Gibson (112), Mike Sims-Walker (108) and Greg Salas (43) constituted the top three during Weeks 1 & 2. Danario Alexander only took 16 snaps.
     
  37. steveincolorado

    steveincolorado Spook, Storme & Pebbles

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    And if I remember right, we only needed 10 or so yards to put us in a 60yard FG range.
     
  38. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Just curious, but if you're saying the defensive coordinator was telling you all this prior to the last 45 seconds, then how did Henne complete 76% of his passes for a 10.2 avg during that time? Both of those numbers would be good for #1 in the NFL.
     
  39. DeDolfan

    DeDolfan Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Screw all other statistics other than the score. It is the only one that counts. Bottom line is that we don't score enough, whoever's fault it is, and allow too many. We need to score 23ppg+ and allow only 16 or less, to be successful. We have to maintain a 7 pt difference on average and we're no where near it. Not even in the same galaxy. It doesn't matter whose fault it is, it just ain't gettin done.
     
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  40. DeDolfan

    DeDolfan Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Does a member's join date have anything to do with anything? Seriously?
     

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