http://www.nfl.com/stats/categoryst...statisticCategory=KICK_RETURNS&qualified=true Thought this was interesting, after Livas's fast start it is perceived that he has sort of calmed down, but the thing is, he sits at #1 in the NFL in punt return yds and tied for #2 in avg per attempt, he is average wheels at kick off returns though. When I say #2, that means for guys with a decent number of attempts, more then 1 or 2 off them I suspect he is one of the players on the bubble heading into gm #4, but who knows what a good showing can do for him? And overall, the Dolphins special teams unit has been solid after having a shaky 2nd half vs the Falcons with Brandon Fields leading the NFL in avg at 52 ypa and Nolan Carroll tied for 5th in the nfl in tackles
Not so much as he has had more then a handful of punt returns, once he went over maybe 7 returns if he was poor at them his average would have dropped.
I'd like for us to find a way to keep this kid. Not sure how it is going to be possible to keep a guy who's sole duty is returning punts, and the odd kickoff here and there with the stupid rules change. I like the fact that he at least gives us a good chance on special teams to get excellent field position. Who knows, maybe we can even develop the kid into a good WR with the help of Bess and Marshall so we can get some other use out of him as well. Going to be tough with his small size though.
not that he's Devin hester, but the same can be said for his return yardarge. If we keep Livas and he returns just one or two punts for TDs this year, he's worth keeping on the roster, even if his other returns are no better than Bess's.
Absolutely agree. I am just pointing out that him leading the NFL in PR yards means nothing. I wonder where he ranks if you take that one return out....
It's a good point, but it always reminds me of the Barry Sander's arguments I used to hear: "if you take away his long runs, his average per carry would be terrible". which is a serious knock against Sanders, but you simply can't discount the home run plays because of their impact on the game. Now with Livas, he only has one return, so it could just be an outlier, but the hope for keeping the guy is that it might happen more than once.
A punt returner's main obligation is beat the first guy, after that it's mostly blocking. He's consistently beaten the first man. I haven't been impressed by the blocking he's been getting on punt or kick returns. (Mind you, I wasn't impressed with the blocking Ginn got either.)
Would you say the same thing about Hester? Yeah he wouldn't have a good avg or many yards if you took out the TD returns.
Where there's a will, there's a way. OK, figure we keep 25 offense, 25 defense, and 3 specialists. 25 offense can be broken down like this: 3 QBs 5 RB/FB 3 TE 6 WR 8 OL Livas could be one of the 6 WRs. 8 seems like 1 too few for the OL, but we very seldom have more than 7 active for games anyway. So if you carry 8 instead of 9 on the active roster, just have one more than usual on the PS. This would mean either Wallace or Marlon Moore don't make it and IMO that is a tough call. If we do not keep Livas, I'd still divide the offense this way and keep both. I'm figuring with 3 TEs that one is Clay and the other is whomever, maybe not currently on the roster, but of the 3 we got now, IMO Shuler has the most upside because he at least comes from an NFL bloodline and he did work out very well before the draft. With 5 RB/FB, then I'd keep Polite, but if you don't keep him and make Clay one of the 5 as the FB, and then keep 2 TEs, you could keep Marlon Moore, Wallace and Livas.
Also looks like he has the 2nd most combined punt and kickoff return yards and just 2 yds less than the #1 guy.
I think the better way of looking at this is to take a look at the Falcon's punt return stats to see what kind of punt return team they are. They have had 9 punt returns with an average of 10.8 return yards- 5 fair catches. Take out Livas' 75 yarder and that drops to 2.2 yards per return, so they seem pretty solid. Add the fact that teams are kicking away from him now... I like Livas' potential and we must find a way to keep him on the roster.
The Big Plays from a return guy matters more than his average. It can make the difference in a win or two. I am hoping we keep Livas but, it does appear unlikely unless he gives Ireland no option on Thurs.
I criticized Reggie Bush for having basically 59 games with a 6 yard punt return average, and then 1 game where he took two to the house. I don't believe you can hold Livas up to the same criticism when we're just talking about 3 games and 11 returns. In fact, him averaging 6.6 yards even when you take out his best return shows that he's doing pretty well. You can't just start taking the largest return out of every 10 or 11 returns out of the data. That's not showing you anything useful. If the man breaks off a big one every three games he'd go down as one of the best punt returners ever to play the game. Omar has it out for the guy. I don't get why. Short strides + 4.4 speed = good things. I don't care how small he is. There are guys the same size playing in this league, with much more playing time too. I still want to see the guy used as a receiver from the slot, to see what those short strides and ultra fast acceleration can do there.
um....No? Its not a hard concept to grasp. One return is different then a career. Anyone remember the little Iowa RB that everyone was going nuts over after his one 70 yard run in the preseason. yea he got cut before the season.
The practice becomes statistically a lot less valid when we're talking about taking 1 out of 11 returns away, and/or disregarding 1 out of 3 games. More accurately, MrClean should have asked you what you thought would happen if you stacked Devin Hester's 178 punt returns up and then removed the 16 best returns from the data sample. What do YOU think Hester would average, if you did that?
One thing that I think goes in his favor is that he looks like a punt returner out there. He makes great decisions, he does the fake catch but let the ball go really well, and he runs north/south more than east/west. Plus the one time he gets pretty good blocking he takes it to the house. I believe if Chris Williams looked as good as Livas, he would have made the team.
Absolutely I agree. He looks like a very safe decision maker and he has yet to muff a punt (I believe, am I wrong?). Chris Williams muffed a couple I believe and that's usually the biggest caveat with these guys that you try during the preseason to see if they've got something to give you on returns...they break off a big play but the rest of the time they're really making questionable decisions and the ball looks unsecure as it gets to their hands. Incidentally if you took out Devin Hester's 16 biggest punt returns his career average on 162 punt returns would be 7.6 yards per return. So taking Livas' biggest return out from among an 11 return sample doesn't even result in telling us much in the way of "Phil Livas = overrated" because the same exercise on Devin Hester yields fairly close to the same result.
Fairly well I am sure. Look, I am not saying for a minute I dislike Livas or think his return was a fluke or anything like that. I am just merely pointed out the facts, in which, you take one return from him and most people are going to want Livas cut. Hell I hope he stays, because he has shown he COULD take it to the house. Something we haven't had in Bess. However, facts are facts.
1. If you do the same practice with Devin Hester he averages 7.6 yards per punt return. Not exactly far off from Livas' 6.6 yard average, and Hester is known as one of the best return men to ever play the game. 2. You underestimate people. Livas caught my eye on returns before he returned the big one for a TD. The very first thing I noticed about him was the short striding, ultra quick acceleration. And then I noticed that he seemed to have some natural decision making and vision. This was all especially notable as it contrasted with Clyde Gates' returns, which weren't necessarily bad, but did not display any notable talent for the job, either. Right away from Phil Livas' first return after Clyde Gates was done with returns for the night, you could see that Phil was a lot better suited for it. And again, that was before he broke a 75 yard touchdown.
LOL. No offense to most people, but your not most people Chris. My point about the return was to not diminish his return ability. I really didn't mean to go there, I should of made my point clearer. My point was, his return yards meant nothing. Because if you take one return from him, he wouldn't be leading in return yards. My point then went to, that ONE return could be a fluke. I am not saying it is by any means. I don't think it is. However, there are guys that return one to the house all the time only to be never heard from again. It happens. Sometimes things fall perfectly and people get lucky and take one to the house.
If I can notice it, there's nothing in the way of others noticing it too, and maybe that's why they're so high on the guy? Whatever happened to the notion that what you do is what you do? I mean, did he get that 75 yard punt return by somehow bending the rules, making it unfair to compare it with the other returners out there who abided by the rules? Did the Falcons have only 10 men on the field or something? The fact that he's a leading punt returner this off season is not a coincidence. He earned it.
Thanks Mr C this was a real quick thread as I prepared to head out the door this morning, Livas, and really the whole ST unit, has dispelled some of the concerns I had over their improvement this yr. 2 Fc's as well, so his non "long" return avg would be what 9 ypa? This is one of the reasons why I suspect he is in the running for that #50-#53 roster spots.
Livas has not muffed one and as you point out, he has made wise decisions handling the ball, a lot of times a longshot player tries to press and make something happen and winds up making a poor decision. His real challenge is showing he has something to offer as a Wr or even running back as well, I'd hoped they would use him more v the Bucs but that was not to be.
I love Livas' ability to make the first guy miss. That's why he looks like a returner out there. I still think he has less than elite balance as he got tripped up a few times that I think the better returners would have recovered from. But that being said, I hope he makes it as I have a soft spot for kick returns. I see them as one of the most exciting plays in the game. I don't think they have as much impact as most other plays simply due to frequency, but the excitement is undeniable. That's why I hate the new kick-off rule.
A play-making returner stands the chance to make a bigger impact on the Dolphins winning than a #5 WR...I think he makes the 53.
Well, I'm like Rafi in that I have a crush on Returner types, reality is the new rules (thanx no fun league) mean that until the weather becomes a factor returners have to be outstanding at their job to make the team solely as a "returner", meaning Livas has to show some things as a Wr, hopefully Sparano takes a look v the Cowboys at what else Livas can do for us.
Since the first game with the 75 yarder he's had 8 returns for 46 net return yards (less than 6 yards per return average) in the last two games.
Remember he tied the NCAA record with 8 TD returns, so his TD return in NFL game#1 was no fluke...that's what he does. I think he has many more big returns (not just TDs) in him if he gets the chance. Even the other teams know this. Blocking would help.
I think so, but the new kick off rules means that he probably has to show some things as a Wr/playmaker in the offense.
The fact that they were willing to make a spot for Clifton Smith as a RS at the start of last season, indicates they are not averse to the idea of carrying a RS on the 53. That bodes well for Livas.
I think we'd all prefer the vast majority of his chances were returning punts rather than kickoffs anyway.
