1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

The surprising fall of Tim Tebow

Discussion in 'Other NFL' started by jim1, Aug 24, 2011.

  1. Dol-Fan Dupree

    Dol-Fan Dupree Tank? Who is Tank? I am Guy Incognito.

    40,533
    33,035
    113
    Dec 11, 2007
    I was more surprised that he had a rise.

    Having a little bit of NFL success doesn't mean the player is going to have a good NFL career. Look at Billy Volek, who had one of the better starts of a career in NFL history.
     
    finyank13 likes this.
  2. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    Of course his college career has bearing. It just isn't a definitive characteristic. Nothing is that simple.
     
  3. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    "Weber threw his 56th touchdown pass in a 32-21 loss to USC on September 18, moving into first place among Minnesota quarterbacks for career touchdown passes. .[5] On October 23, Weber became the 5th quarterback in Big Ten history to have 10,000 passing yards in a 33-21 loss to Penn State in which he had 299 passing yards."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Weber
     
  4. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    I've never been high on Tim Tebow, but this freefall of his seems ridiculous to me.

    A month ago it was Tim Tebow's team and the Broncos were asking a 3rd round pick for Kyle Orton. Now Tebow is 4th string, and the only thing that has happened during actual games is the following:

    Kyle Orton: 12 of 19 for 172 yards, 1 TD and 0 INTs, 1 Sack for -5 yards, 0 rushes for 0 yards and 0 TDs, 0 Fumbles, 110.0 QB Rating
    Brady Quinn: 18 of 30 for 250 yards, 2 TDs and 1 INT, 0 Sacks for 0 yards, 0 rushes for 0 yards and 0 TDs, 0 Fumbles, 95.1 QB Rating
    Tim Tebow: 7 of 9 for 101 yards, 0 TDs and 0 INTs, 2 Sacks for -16 yards, 3 rushes for 22 yards and 0 TDs, 0 Fumbles, 113.4 QB Rating

    And Adam Weber hasn't even thrown a single preseason pass. You know what? Scott Tolzien can look great in a practice. But you get him in a live fire situation with a pass rush and Tolzien falls apart.

    There's a lot of piling on going on with Tebow. I never thought he could play QB in this league but all he's done so far is throw for an 88.0 QB Rating in his rookie preseason, a 113 QB Rating in his second preseason, and an 82 QB Rating in his rookie regular season, scoring 11 TDs with only 3 turnovers.

    I mean, really? There's this level of piling on when he's yet to really suck during actual football games?

    But hey, whatever. I'll take him on the Dolphins. I'll make him a Tight End, a goal line Wildcat, even the #3 Quarterback if he really wants that.
     
  5. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

    22,422
    9,819
    0
    Nov 27, 2007
    DC Metro Area
    No, not even close to what my statement was. Its more of if you are going to BET on the outcome, I want the guy that goes 100% after it, if I believe his skills and athleticism will aide in that effort. Tebow is a GREAT BET to be more than just a QB.

    Its all assumptions that he wouldnt put in the effort if asked to! In a "small sample size" he has already proven that he can produce POINTS as QB with legs and arm. He is the perfect combo package....get offensive touches at TE/H-Back, and leverage his success (again small sample) in special QB oriented packages. Playmakers are Playmakers, and its hard to argue that he isnt a playmaker when given the chance to be one.
     
  6. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    No more toga parties or road trips for you then. ;)
     
  7. Frayser

    Frayser Barstool Philosopher

    9,545
    5,217
    113
    Dec 4, 2007
    Atlanta, GA
    And I'd bring him in under the same circumstances. But, as with the Daniel Thomas arguments, we're not seeing Tebow in practice. And, while those stats on paper might look nice, I've seen him in these games, and he has not been all that impressive. The guy can't even throw a simple out half the time. He throws the ball in the dirt. He misses open guys by a LOT. Every now and then, he throws a nice ball. And he clearly can extend plays. But, if he can't consistently make basic throws, I don't blame the Broncos for finally waking up.
     
  8. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    11,121
    5,828
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    I fail to see the downside of him as the third qb. Wildcat is not dead. Clay, bush, thomas, marshall, fasano, tebow is a wildcat package that can do a lot.

    Sent from my SGH-T959V using Tapatalk
     
    BigDogsHunt likes this.
  9. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

    30,718
    5,415
    113
    Jan 6, 2010
    Is Tebow seeing 1st team defenses CK?.......

    I would offer him a 7th...maaaaaybe a 6th
     
  10. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    He sure as hell saw first string defenses in the regular season when he passed for an 82 QB Rating as a true rookie and scored 11 touchdowns with only 3 turnovers.
     
  11. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

    22,422
    9,819
    0
    Nov 27, 2007
    DC Metro Area
    That's the ultimate decisiion for bringing him on board. If he is special package QB, if he is willing to get touches as TE/H-back, what is the downside for adding him? Who's roster spot is being wasted? Its a high upside BET.
     
  12. 2k5

    2k5 I miss Ted Ginn Jr.

    2,781
    1,309
    113
    Nov 28, 2007
    Milwaukee, WI
    "Statistically, Weber is the best quarterback in Gophers history. Realistically, he owns the team's passing records because he is a four-year starter in a program that hasn't been known for its air game."

    This is coming from a Gophers' fan site...
    http://www.goallineclub.com/pages/news.php?id=3616

    He was also the owner of most interceptions before he was the owner of most touchdowns.

    I'm not sure how your post is supposed to be proof of anything.
     
  13. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    The truth is I think a lot of people have serially overrated Charles Clay. He's a 6th round draft pick. He did some damage in a wide open spread attack at Tulsa, but he looked like "just a guy" at the Combine, running drills with a tight ends class that a lot of scouts hated, and yet he looked to be middle to bottom rung even among those guys. But everyone includes him in whatever their thoughts are about certain aspects of the offense, certain formations, etc. He's done next to nothing in these preseason games, he's drawn no distinction in training camp. He's playing fullback seemingly full time and yet when you watch him play in college he was never a good blocker. That's kind of job 1A for a fullback. They put him on the line a few times in these preseason games and he's looked pertty bad there. He can catch some passes but so can a lot of guys, it's all about the balance and whether he does enough things really well.

    You bring in a Tebow, I'm pretty sure he's better than Charles Clay at whatever you ask him to do. You don't have to keep trying to figure ways to still include Charles Clay in your thoughts about where Tebow fits in. Clay hasn't earned that place in your thoughts yet. Putting the cart before the horse. He could easily be just another Reagan Mauia.
     
    schmolioot likes this.
  14. Fin D

    Fin D Sigh

    72,252
    43,684
    113
    Nov 27, 2007
    No offense, but how has Tebow playing another position other than QB and being better at it than X player...not putting the cart before the horse as well?
     
    Mile High Fin likes this.
  15. Frayser

    Frayser Barstool Philosopher

    9,545
    5,217
    113
    Dec 4, 2007
    Atlanta, GA
    Leading his team to a 1-2 record in 3 starts with <50% completion percentage. In those 3 starts, he threw 4 TDs and 3 INTs and his QBR was 77.75. He also rushed for 3 TDs, and I think that's worth noting. But including prior stats where his team marched down the field without him, and he was merely subbed in on the goalline (where he threw for 1 TD and rushed for 3 TDs), is a bit misleading in my opinion.

    I understand that you are arguing for Tebow the player and not Tebow the QB. My point is simply that Tebow the QB is better represented by the stats I've provided.
     
  16. Frayser

    Frayser Barstool Philosopher

    9,545
    5,217
    113
    Dec 4, 2007
    Atlanta, GA
    I'm reminded of Derek Hagan.
     
    2k5 likes this.
  17. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    No one mentioned proof. My point is that if he's one of 5 QBs in the history of the Big Ten to throw for 10,000 yards he must be doing something right. Plus there's the buzz from Broncos camp. Other than that, I wouldn't know Adam from- Adam.
     
  18. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    Only issue I would see potentially with Tebow would be blocking from the LOS, which I don't think Clay can do either.
     
  19. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

    22,422
    9,819
    0
    Nov 27, 2007
    DC Metro Area
    That's not misleading...that's the package I want him for as QB. the marching down field part, I want him to get touches and impact offense as TE/H-Back...thats win/win.
     
  20. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

    44,356
    22,480
    113
    Mar 22, 2008
    Only issue I would see potentially with Tebow would be blocking from the LOS, which I don't think Clay can do either.
     
  21. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    So what you do on the football field doesn't count unless you were out there for the first snap of the game?

    I don't agree.

    You're going to crucify a true rookie for going 1-2 (.333) as a starter on a team that went 3-10 (.231) without him as a starter? You're going to crucify a true rookie for a 78 QB Rating during those starts?

    I don't agree with that, either.

    I never liked Tim Tebow as a QB prospect but there's an extreme disconnect between what he's shown on the football field during games, and the treatment he's receiving from his team and from the media. Most would have us believe that the bridge between that disconnect is what he's shown in practice. That may well be the case, but if so then I think it's a case of over-valuing what a guy does in practice versus what he does during the games. A lot of people have suggested that Tony Romo never looked in practice the way he does during games, and Bob Griese says he was a bad practice player.
     
  22. Frayser

    Frayser Barstool Philosopher

    9,545
    5,217
    113
    Dec 4, 2007
    Atlanta, GA
    You ignored my last paragraph. :up:

    I'm fine with bringing him in in the role that CK's talking about. But there's also a discussion going on about his actual performance as a starting QB in the last 3 games of the season last year. I believe that performance is better represented by the stats I provided.
     
  23. 2k5

    2k5 I miss Ted Ginn Jr.

    2,781
    1,309
    113
    Nov 28, 2007
    Milwaukee, WI
    I'm having trouble finding a good complete record log, but it seems he's also thrown the most interceptions of any QB to ever play in the Big Ten. He's never done anything special, that's why he went undrafted despite some pretty darn good measurables and a ton of experience.
     
  24. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

    79,599
    159,162
    113
    Dec 1, 2007
    From what I've seen of Tebow in his college career...I hate to sound like a misty-eyed Tebow fanatic because I've spent much more time hating the Cult of Tebow than not...but I don't see blocking being an issue for him longer term. He's just too tough and physical for me to believe that would end up a problem for him.
     
  25. Frayser

    Frayser Barstool Philosopher

    9,545
    5,217
    113
    Dec 4, 2007
    Atlanta, GA
    I'm not crucifying anybody, but I do find the use of that loaded term when referencing Tebow amusing. All I'm saying is that, if we are talking about his actual performance in the last 3 games of the season, then look at the stats for those 3 games. Don't say he "scored 11 TDs" with only 3 INTs. Should we call Mike Vrabel a Hall of Fame TE? Again, I made the distinction between your argument about Tebow the player and what I'm talking about, Tebow the QB. Tebow the QB was not all that impressive last year. I mean . . . even if you include the jump pass he was subbed in for before he actually started playing games, his completion % was 50.

    Tebow did not show much promise as QB last year. Where he showed promise was as a Wildcat QB in short yardage situations, but everyone figured he'd be able to do that.
     
  26. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

    22,422
    9,819
    0
    Nov 27, 2007
    DC Metro Area
    No I didnt, I never argued for Tebow the 100% QB. I only want/intriqued by Tebow the unique package QB where he excels (as you have proven), and more importantly, I want to maximize his roster value by getting that playmaker on the field in non-QB formations.
     
  27. Frayser

    Frayser Barstool Philosopher

    9,545
    5,217
    113
    Dec 4, 2007
    Atlanta, GA
    And my post wasn't a response to you. I was very clear that I'm just talking about his play as a starting QB in the last 3 games of the season. When evaluating that, we should use the stats from those games and nothing else. And those stats don't look nearly as good as the stats when you include his stats from earlier in the season where his team essentially set him up to succeed on short yardage situations.
     
  28. Two Tacos

    Two Tacos Season Ticket Holder Club Member

    11,121
    5,828
    113
    Nov 24, 2007
    I understand what you're saying, but I think clay has been a better fb than polite so far, run blocking included. I see him as starting week one unless things change, regardless of tebow.

    Sent from my SGH-T959V using Tapatalk
     
  29. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    Wow- add Boomer Esiason to the list of those who don't like Tebow:

    Move aside, Merril Hoge. You now have competition as Tim Tebow’s harshest critic.

    Boomer Esiason, the former Bengals quarterback and current CBS analyst, says Tebow has no business being an NFL quarterback, and just because Tebow was successful at Florida, that’s no reason to think he’ll ever be any good with the Broncos.

    “He can’t play. He can’t throw,” Esiason said, via Mike McCarthy of USA Today. “I’m not here to insult him. The reality is he was a great college football player, maybe the greatest college football player of his time. But he’s not an NFL quarterback right now. Just because he’s God-fearing, and a great person off the field, and was a winner with the team that had the best athletes in college football, doesn’t mean his game is going to translate to the NFL.”

    Esiason says he can’t imagine why the old coaching staff wanted Tebow and doesn’t see what good it does for the current coaching staff to keep him around.

    “What Josh McDaniel saw in him God only knows. Maybe God does know — because the rest of us don’t,” Esiason said.

    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/08/24/boomer-esiason-tim-tebow-cant-play-cant-throw/

    I still say bring it on- Merling for Tebow. It makes more and more sense to me- what a strange two weeks for this kid. I watched- intently- this kid in college to see if the criticism of his arm is warranted- I still say no. Look at some of the throws, namely in the Alabama game (night game jr or sr season, not sure- I was watching the Alabama Center, too- damn good.) and the title game vs Oklahoma. The throws were there. I'll stand by that opinion, we'll see how it turns out. At minimum this guy would be a great short yardage/wildcat QB- what a great use of a 3rd string qb roster space. I have never- in my life- seen a more polarizing player.
     
    MrClean and Pandarilla like this.
  30. muscle979

    muscle979 Season Ticket Holder

    15,863
    6,275
    113
    Dec 12, 2007
    Evans, GA
    Jacksonville should pick him up. Then people would actually go to their games.
     
  31. Frayser

    Frayser Barstool Philosopher

    9,545
    5,217
    113
    Dec 4, 2007
    Atlanta, GA
    That was my thought in the draft.
     
  32. PhinsRDbest

    PhinsRDbest Transform and Transcend

    8,365
    4,211
    113
    Jan 5, 2010
    the next dimension
    Only surprising to blind Tebow fan's.
     
  33. finyank13

    finyank13 Reality Check

    30,718
    5,415
    113
    Jan 6, 2010
    :lol:

    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/colu...sts-cool-on-Tim-Tebows-NFL-chances/50111678/1
     
  34. Dolphin1184

    Dolphin1184 Member

    3,095
    1,445
    113
    Nov 30, 2007
    Augusta, GA
    So much hatred for one guy. It is incredible.

    Too bad Boomer had less talent than Tebow's pinky.
     
  35. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    It's really neither here nor there. He put up big numbers, has good size, and has turned heads at Broncos camp. I've never seen the guy play- the relevance is that some are saying that he outplayed Tebow in PRACTICE. That's it. Otherwise he and his stats are of no relevance.
     
  36. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

    27,364
    31,261
    113
    Apr 6, 2008
    IMO the bashing comes from all the attention he gets. Anybody who gets that much attention gets over scrutinized. If that person has a new or different style than what is commonly accepted then anybody who lacks vision will harp on how he's not like what they're used to. And once you get that much attention, even if you are great (not saying he is), there will be a large number of people who just get tired of hearing your name and will root against you.
     
  37. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    I agree. The only thing about Tebow that kind of rubbed me the wrong way was the John 3:16 or some other bible verse under his eyes during games- I'd rather keep sports and religion separate. But as imperfect as his throwing motion goes, I still maintain that as awkward as it is, it gets the job done. The velocity is ok and the accuracy issues are way overblown imo. He's a gamer. For a pure arm you look at a guy like Ryan Mallett, and despite his drop in the draft he might turn out to be outstanding- seriously, who knows. But if you watch-really watch- some Tebow film you can see that the guy can make the throws. Sometimes even a screen pass from him looks awkward- what can I say. But the whole package, physicality, intangibles, leadership, and yes- imo- the arm, are there. I would pick him up in a heartbeat and game plan short yardage/goal line packages around him. What I would not do is make him a FB/TE/HB. I just don't see that.
     
  38. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

    27,364
    31,261
    113
    Apr 6, 2008
    The religion thing doesn't bother me with him b/c he's not in your face about it. He never comes off as if he's telling anybody what to do or what to believe. I agree about the throwing motion being over blown. This guy completed 67% of his passes in college and they weren't all wide open as some want to pretend. The fact is that he got it done. In the pros this guy had 7 TDs (4 passing, 3 rushing) and just 3 INTs in his three starts. It's the kind of thing you see with QBs that present a running threat. Defenses play them differently so they get easier passing lanes and easier throws. Vince Young comes in with his very pedestrian passing and the team wins (a team that was not winning with a much better conventional passer). And Denver was at least as good (and arguably better) with Tebow instead of Orton last year. They had a slightly higher winning percentage and they were scoring more per game. Clearly Tebow has to get better at passing in rhythm, but it's all about reps from under center. His throwing motion and speed of release won't have to change. IMO those who keep harping about what he's not good at simply lack the vision to see the many things he does well and how those things result in wins.
     
    jim1 likes this.
  39. jim1

    jim1 New Member

    5,902
    3,054
    0
    Jul 1, 2008
    Very well said.
     
  40. BigDogsHunt

    BigDogsHunt Enough talk...prove it!

    22,422
    9,819
    0
    Nov 27, 2007
    DC Metro Area
    from "surprising fall" to what appears to be the "raising of Lazareth"!

    Opportunity, meet preparation and good fortune!

    Would still want him on Miami to be H-back most of the time, but be the QB that runs this Veer (too funny Den-Veer offense) for Miami inside the Red Zone. His production and success rate to covert TD's and not settle for FGs and absolutely give defenses fits is undeniable!
     

Share This Page