One other veteran TE still available is Brandon Manumaleuna. The Bears signed him in 2010 to a 5 yr/15 mil contract with 6.1mil guaranteed then cut him after one season. In 2008 he was one of the best blocking TEs in football. He weighs about 290 lbs. But last season, his only one in Chicago, PFF graded him as the worst TE in the league. Still only 31, so maybe a reclamation project? Still prefer Crumpler though. He has graded as the 3rd, 7th and 3rd best run blocking TE the last 3 seasons, and 10th, 9th and 7th overall.
Yeah Manu seems like one of those guys that sticks out a bit. I think the reality though is they'll have to wait for someone to get cut...if they want someone good...and of course that comes with the caveat that the guy will have to learn the system on the fly and probably will be limited in what he could produce because of that. Which brings us back to the issue of why they didn't anticipate this in time to do something effective about it.
At least Haynos could block. We were a good red zone team in 2009. Losing that cost huge momentum early in the year especially against Pittsburgh.
Which is interesting because honestly I didn't think Haynos was all that good of a blocker and I think in college and in Green Bay he was known as more of a receiving guy than a blocker.
#2 TEs spend a lot of time on the field. Like CK said, a pseudo starter. Last season, Ben Watson had 932 snaps as Cleveland's #1 TE and the backups combined for 521 snaps. A lot more than our backup TEs were used last season, but not as much as Joey Haynos was in 2009. Haynos had 588 snaps and Kory Sperry had 115. A total of 703 snaps for our backup TEs in 2009. In 2010, our collection of backup TEs combined for 350 snaps. Fasano's snaps were consistent both years. 894 and 900. Was that because the 2010 backups aren't very good or just a preference for more 3 WR sets, or both?
Haynos was slow from what I remember with good overall run blocking. Regardless it's not just the snaps that matter now, it's the situation. We don't exactly have a quarterback that excels in executing a fade pattern so the running game will have to play a major role in the red zone, whatever the number of snaps may be.
Cleveland also had a pretty awful set of WRs, so Daboll may have been more likely to use a 2nd TE than a WR. Here, I think we'd want Marshall, Bess, Hartline and Bush in receiving roles in most passing situations, unless we feel Gates is the real deal, in which case there is even less room for a 2nd TE. I would rather be passing to any of those guys than any of the possible backup TE options that had been thrown around in this thread. I think the dolphins reduction in 2nd TE usage from 2009 to 2010 was probably a combination of fewer offensive plays overall, better WRs than in 2009, an uninspiring group of backup TEs and probably some other factors that I am not thinking of. But even at 2009 usage, Haynos and Sperry combined for 22 receptions in those 703 snaps, or one reception in every 32 snaps. And those receptions were generally 8-10 yard dump offs and check downs that virtually any backup TE would catch. TE usage is very system-dependent. Some teams use them a lot, no matter who is in there, and others don't. I think we will use Fasano, but if we want to throw, I don't see us sitting down 3 of the following guys: Hartline, Bess, Gates, Marshall or Bush in order to get the ball to the backup TE. Most TEs end up working against zone coverage and just need to find the soft spot and catch the ball. If covered one on one, most TEs of average ability will be able to get open against most LBs and will have a huge size advantage against all but the very biggest safeties. Jacob Tamme was a 4th round pick of moderate ability who had 6 receptions in 2 years going into last season. When Dallas Clark went down, Tamme stepped in and caught 67 passes in 10 games, a pace that would have given him 107 receptions over 16 games, which I believe would have been a record for a TE. Is it a coincidence that he did that on a team that had a TE catch 100 passes the season before? Is Tamme just that unique a talent? No. Peyton Manning likes to throw to his TE and the system is very conducive to the TE catching a lot of passes.
You say TE usage is very system dependent but just got done suggesting that Brian Daboll relied heavily on his TEs in 2010 because of personnel issues. Though not mutually exclusive, those are conflicting explanations...the idea of TE usage being mostly system based versus personnel based. If it's more personnel based, then when the 2011 season is over and we find that Miami did not use very many Tight Ends, I don't think that should be taken as proof that they were justified in not targeting the position for personnel upgrades during the previous off season. I think obviously it's both system dependent and personnel dependent...but it's difficult to say which versus which or that it's more one versus the other. In Cleveland they used 1.34 TEs per play in 2009 and then 1.49 in 2010, yet the system was the same. In Miami we used 1.40 per play in 2009 and 1.14 in 2010...yet, same system.
To bad NY Giants dont still have Boss....with Osi's injury and now Thomas out for season at CB...we could have pushed a DL and CB depth to make a play for TE with them.
Alright I guess I have to be the idiot that brings up the Madden-esque fantasy type situation but...what about Tim Tebow? The situation in Denver with Tebow could not be more surreal right now. A month ago the Broncos had given the Miami Dolphins permission to talk to Kyle Orton about a contract restructuring, and if the two sides (Miami and Orton) agreed on a contract then the Broncos intended to let Orton go to the Dolphins for as little as a 3rd round pick (according to Michael Silver's sources). The team was for all intents and purposes Tim Tebow's. A month later Kyle Orton is their undisputed #1, and Brady Quinn is their undisputed #2. And now, to add insult to injury, a source within the front office tells Michael Silver that if everyone is being honest with themselves, freshly signed UDFA Adam Weber is #3, ahead of Tim Tebow, and it's not even close. The whole thing is just unfathomable. But, so much of what Josh McDaniels did personnel-wise is being attainted by the people out there, both fans and people in the organization. There's a realistic possibility that Tim Tebow could indeed get cut. And if that's the case, we go back to some of the stuff we all talked about when he was coming out of school. There was some legitimate thought to the idea of Tebow playing some Tight End or skill position stuff. He's 6'3" and 235-240 lbs. We've all seen him run, we know he's elusive and has great gearing. He had a 6.66 second cone drill at the Combine which is just plain uncommon regardless of size and weight. He had a 38.5" vertical. And best of all, he's a ridiculously hard worker with an impeccable personality. Maybe the guy does want to play quarterback, but is he really going to slack off and flop around if you ask him to play some Tight End for you? I don't think he even knows what it means to give less than 100%. Terrelle Pryor just went off to the Raiders in the 3rd round of the Supplemental Draft, because of the possibility that he could be more than a QB. And yet his attitude and work ethic couldn't be more polar opposite from Tebow's. I'm not against the idea of taking guys that played one position and having them trying to convert to another. But I think they have to have the right personality and work ethic for it, and to me Tebow has that...Pryor doesn't. Just throwing it out there.
I was using the term "system" broadly to include the set of plays, terminology, personnel, the target tendencies of the QB, etc. And I don't really think Daboll relied heavily on his #2 TEs as receivers. They caught what, 22 passes among them, and Evan Moore is probably more of a WR than a TE. He blocked for the run on only 30 of the 193 plays he was in for last year. The Browns probably had the worst set of WRs in football and I'm not sure the "probably" even needs to be there. They may simply have felt that Moore was a better receiving threat from a TE spot than Sam Aiken or Brian Robiskie were from the WR spot. I don't see any of the names being bandied about as possible #2 TEs as being better receiving threats than Marshall, Bess, Hartline, Gates, Fasano or Bush. I'm hopeful that Clay can be added to that list, although that remains to be seen.
The difference being that Cleveland's wide receivers were/are terrible. And ours aren't. I'm no huge buyer on Brian Hartline but presumably Brian Daboll isn't so inflexible he'd send a ****ty #2 tight end out there over "White Lightning" with regularity. I doubt the above ratio is really proof of too much.
If cut, and if he would be interested in TE as primary and some fun in certain QB (aka wildcat, red zone) type stuff...hell yeah sign me up. But its really the if cut part that intrigues my interest level in giving it a go with Tebow!
Excellent post CK. I read the Silver article and was blown away. Feels like alot of piling on Tebow who actually was not terrible in his couple of starts last year. I was never a huge Tebow fan being both an FSU fan and somebody who doesn't like in your face religion, but I would have no problem giving the guy a shot to play QB, or at least having him on my team. For all the talk of Chad Henne growing into a leader 4 years in, Tim Tebow is a born leader. When he was miked up for the Texans game last year, I wanted to run through a brick wall for him. He is a guy worth having on your team, in some capacity
11 TDs and 3 INTs and leading them to Wins....far from not terrilble. Tebow is a walking sterotype in peoples minds...un justified vs reality. I do think he has far more value to every down snap values as TE vs as QB with all that said in the short term and perhaps long term as well.
Has anyone stopped to think that maybe it's a number one TE the team is searching for? We're all taking Omar's tweet at face value, but couldn't he be wrong about the intent, if not the thing itself?
Well, we do need a good #3 Qb who can do some WildCat things, he has the pedigree for it, but he also has a Old Cap 1st rd contract for a part time role and that will probably keep us from brining him in..though maybe we should. We do need some guys with a higher ceiling so to speak, thing with him is you have to design the offense around what he does well, not what the OC wants to do.
I agree, but I would give him a shot as a QB. No reason he can't play some kind of "slash" role for you while continuing to llarn the QB position. For all people talk about "it", he has it. And I was never a fan of the guy.
He'd be claimed if cut, if traded for his contract can be redone. Haynos signed with Jax for those asking.
If I was Tebow and his reps, I would immediatley ask for my release, even if it meant paying back some of the bonus. Tim Tebow is a huge star and will get endorsements regardless of what he does on the field. I would do almost anything to get out of Denver at this point. I mean, to be bagged on by your own organization who thinks Adam Weber is better than you? Forget them.
Yup, some fun stuff packages would be interesting as long as he really added value as TE and wanted to give that full effort too.
Texans and Bills I thought.....???? doesnt matter, points the same, 11TDs is far better than non terrible.
If he's cut loose, I'd be all for bringing Tebow in as a backup QB/WCQB/TE/H-Back etc. He didn't play badly when he got a chance last year and he has all the work ethic and intangibles you could ask for.
why conditional pick at all....just Merling, or add 7th....take it or cut him. If cut, we can sign him to an agreeable offer. He doesnt go through waivers to worst team, etc.
I'd trade Phil Merling for Tebow. That's kind of where I was going with this. The whole thing is fishy. The Broncos front office probably did some research on Phil Merling. Don't know if their results came out favorable or not. But if they were allowing us to talk to Orton then they would have been proactive in figuring out what they'd accept in trade for him and that means picks and players, and Merling's probably the lowest hanging fruit in terms of a player. If we could all figure that out by looking at the roster, so could they. So if they did have a good evaluation on Merling, maybe they'd be willing to give up Tebow for him. Tebow was a #25 overall, Merling a #32 overall. There is precedent out there for teams swapping a pair of high round busts for one another. It does happen. I remember Miami did one like that with Denver, with John Avery and Marcus Nash. Just throwing it out there. The Dolphins have this fascination with the Wildcat thing too, so you KNOW that Tebow wouldn't just be a Tight End. Also, think about this...you go through a preseason game and it takes you 4 tries to bang it into the end zone from the 1 yard line? Replace Daniel Thomas/Lex Hilliard with Tim Tebow. Still think it takes 4 tries? Goal line was a specialty for him in college.
Sign me up. And I'd let him be the 3rd QB. i'd rather have him play in an emergency than Kevin O'Connell or Devlin
I have always thought that Tebow would make a good tight end. At least he has the right physical body for one.
One other thing about this line of speculation....you know I'm not a fan of Reggie Bush. But, Tim Tebow + Reggie Bush resembles pretty closely Tim Tebow + Percy Harvin back at Florida, in terms of those mesh exchanges between QB-RB on fly sweeps and whatnot (wildcat type plays).
Yeah that's the other thing. It's not like Chad Henne is a guy where you're like, "No way you can't take that guy off the field he's too good!"
Also, how many TD's did Bill Belichick get Mike Vrabel to score? I have no doubt that Tebow could easily learn and excel at a few goal line plays, plus the wildcat stuff while still developing as a QB. Trading Merling for him would be a no brainer. Which is probably why Ireland hasn't thought of it yet.
