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Henne hype machine in high gear

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by phinphever, May 2, 2008.

  1. Frumundah Finnatic

    Frumundah Finnatic U Mad Miami?

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    I havent seen anyone hype Henne up.

    True Henne has a larger time frame to get ready when compared to Beck.
     
  2. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    I don't think "everyone" is sold on Henne.

    But, IMO, there are some reasons to think Henne may eventually beat out Beck.

    One, Henne actually has more experience than Beck. Henne started something like 47 games at Michigan. Thats unheard of.

    Second, to those of us who actually watched Beck play last year, he looked even worse than the offense itself. There were times when he couldn't take a clean snap, and he played "small". He never transcended the circumstances. IOW, he never made a bad play good, he never escaped the defender and made the defense pay for gambling, etc, etc. He looked like a bad QB on a bad team.

    Now, having said all of that (and I said it because its true) Beck may come out this year and be "THE MAN". I hope he does. And he is in his prime physically, being 27 or 28 or whatever he is. Henne still has some learning to do.

    Physically, IMO, Henne is more prepared right now than John Beck is. We'll see if I am right when the season starts.
     
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  3. StLouisFinFan

    StLouisFinFan New Member

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    PHP:
    I hope this FO does have a backbone and mind of its ownOnly time will tell if they mean what they saySo farthe "no thugs, hoodlums, problem children" quote has taken a backseat while RickyCrowderRothStarksetc are all on the team.[/QUOTE]
    Parcells' reputation, and what insight I gained from the recent "week in the life of BP" article posted here leaves no doubt in my mind, whatsoever, that he doesn't give a flying **** what the fans, much less the media, want him to do about the QB spot, and I don't think he'd even hesitate to tell them as much. I really do believe this, I'm not just jumping on the "BP is a badass" bandwagon. Just calling it like I see it.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2008
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  4. StLouisFinFan

    StLouisFinFan New Member

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    Hang on a minute. You start off your argument for Henne based on the premise that he's at a distinct advantage due to his college experience. Allow me to proceed with the poking of holes in that theory.

    Here are there college career stats:
    Games CP Yds YPA TD INT Sacks
    Henne 47 59.8 9715 7.0 87 37 90
    Beck 43 62.4 11,021 7.8 79 34 71

    Not that these really mean anything, but your argument of his phenominal game experience puts Henne a whole 4 games ahead of Beck, albeit with lower accuracy on shorter throws, more TDs, but more Ints and sacks. Add to this the fact that Beck has actually seen NFL game speed and studied NFL defenses for the past 9 months or so, and, well, I think you see where this is going.

    Beck and, to a higher degree, McCown are at a distinct advantage for having seen the NFL speed. For McCown, the game has likely slowed down as much as it's going to slow down for him. For Beck, the game is likely only STARTING to slow down. For Henne, the game is about to be put into fast forward. He's going from playing "Slow Ride" on Guitar Hero's Easy level to "Through Fire and Flames" on Expert. At least that's how I would guess the transition to be (for the record, I had to play it to teach it to my 8 year old son for Christmas:).

    Bottom line, Henne is going to have play out of this world to leap frog both Beck and McCown.
     
  5. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    That's all well and good, but Parcells also wants to win and he may not be patient and willing to stand by if the team starts out slowly. It also brings up the discussion on who exactly is in charge of making the everyday decisions. I think Parcells has alot of influence, but that Ireland and Sparano are calling the shots when it comes to who plays and where they play. Will they stick with Beck if the media and fans start bellyaching? Or will they go with the guy that they selected?

    Again, after seeing the way things have played out over the past year in Miami in regard to the Qb position, please forgive me for being a bit skepticle. :wink2:
     
  6. Swampfox

    Swampfox Season Ticket Holder

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    I am not sold on Henne. It seems he is the flavor of the month but it seems to me we used a second round pick to draft a back up.
     
  7. StLouisFinFan

    StLouisFinFan New Member

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    No, we used a second round pick on an insurance policy to cover the most important position on this football team.
     
  8. Swampfox

    Swampfox Season Ticket Holder

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    Insurance policy , back up , different names for the same thing.
     
  9. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    But isn't that what McCown is? He's the vet QB ready to step in if Beck can't cut it.
     
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  10. quelonio

    quelonio Season Ticket Holder

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    In all fairness you can't compare Cam to the new group. Cam's biggest problem was precisely his lack of backbone and leadership abilities. He might have been a great X and O's guy (debatable) but damn was he a horrible leader. So I honestly as I stand, I have no doubt that while cam would cave to the pressure, this group wouldnt.

    I do not understand the infatuation with the Cam-Muel draft, my only explanation is that it is still too soon. That like with the Saban drafts, we will need a couple of years to realize how bad the draft was. As we are right now Satele was the pick of that draft. By far. Ginn could become something and based on work ethic Beck could become something. But everyone else in that draft was just not as good (and I personally have serious doubts about Beck and Ginn).

    I continue to hear that we can't make a judgement on Beck's performance in those 4 games. And I understand where are you coming from, but it goes both ways, just like I can't say he sucks because of those games, you can't tell me there is future in him because of those games. His time in college is all fine and dandy, but until he does something other than cough up the ball in the pros, no one ever is going to convince me that we should not see at the other QB's on this team.
     
  11. quelonio

    quelonio Season Ticket Holder

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    and you feel good about that?

    john Beck and Josh McCown, these are the QB you think are going to take us to the promise land. I mean that is what we are building for. If Beck falters, you feel like we are covered with Josh McCown?
     
  12. quelonio

    quelonio Season Ticket Holder

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    Compared to the John Beck hype... nope no one has hyped up Henne as much yet. This board has been in absolute love with Beck for a year now, no matter what he does the guy gets excuses made for him over and over. I underestand where they are coming from, but it just makes me laugh so much when people who are Beck supporters complain about the Henne hype.

    I swear to god, nowhere else where I might look is there people that think that John Beck is going to be a good or great QB. But here it is almost as if it where a foregone conclusion that the kid is going to be great. I mean who is getting the hype? There is complaint that Henne hasn't done anything on the field, guess what, for us Beck hasn't either, at most he has stunk it up. So sorry if I don't take on field accomplishments in the pros as something that proves anything on either side. The same people that dismiss Henne's accomplishments in College (my favorite one is the "you can't take the Florida game as an example, that was one game" when they turn around and point to the bengal game the moment you point out that Beck has had problems in the pros) are the people that want to take solely Beck's performance in College as proof of his quality (and dismiss his dismal performance in the pros). There is a weird double standard here that is just weird to witness.

    John Beck has been hyped since we drafted him, there where media reports and comments to no end that having him justified passing on Quinn, that "finally" the dolphins had used a high pick on a QB. I mean it is to no end. But suddenly the kid gets competition and people start attacking the new guy as "getting hype". Please... who in this league that plays QB is not hyped????
     
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  13. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    The last FO didn't have near the credibility that this FO has. And that matters...big time.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2008
  14. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    Nonsense. They haven't taken "thugs, hoodlums, or problem children". None of those have given this FO any problems. We drafted two RBs in case Ricky flakes out again. The biggest problem Roth has given us is his inability to play well in games. Same with Crowder. I doubt Starks will be a problem here.

    You can't ask this FO to kick out or disqualify any player who has ever gotten in to any trouble in this league. That would be foolish. If they sign or draft a player and that player gets into trouble, or if a current player on the roster starts causing trouble, ala TO in Philly, I expect these guys will act quickly to rectify it.
     
  15. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    Excellent post.
     
  16. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    Has anyone in the FO indicated that Beck is on his way out? All I've heard is that there will be a heated QB competition in training camp. As far as I know, the FO and Coaching staff have worked extensively with Beck this offseason to get him to improve his game. Doesn't sound like someone with an agenda to ride him outta town. Beck will get a FAIR chance to win the QB battle.

    Beck should surely not be judged a failure by those four games last year. That would be foolishness. But we also shouldn't fail to address the QB position. Nothing we have SEEN has given us any indication that Beck is the answer. If he is, it will be because of an improvement that none of us have seen yet (ala Anderson in Cleveland when he made great strides last season that NO ONE saw coming).
     
  17. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    Hmmm...I guess thats just a new phenomenon of there being inordinate attention on the QB position. Wait. That has ALWAYS been the case. Its starting to make sense now.
     
  18. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    It has EVERYTHING to do with us being 1-15 last year. What we don't know this year is how much Beck has progressed or how Henne will perform.

    What we do know is that last year John Beck played poorly on a terrible team. I know he was just a rookie. Trent Edwards was also a rookie and he played infinitely better than Beck. Does this mean that Beck is a failure? No. Its means what it means. Beck wasn't good last year. Hopefully, And I sincerely hope this, John Beck is going to be a BEAST this year with the new protection and committment to be better in the trenches.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2008
  19. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    I agree wholeheartedly. Kiper and I think Frank Croyle, though I am not certain, both said Merling is a more complete player than than Gaines Adams, whom the Yuccaneers drafted with the fourth pick last year.
     
  20. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    This FO showed they aren't building just for 08. This is a long term project. They made a committment to both lines and to address the QB situation (just in case). We are in good hands, IMO.
     
  21. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    And they went to the AFCCG with Rivers. It worked in SD, anyway you cut it.

    I think in Cleveland the problem is different and best put in context by Phil Savage when he said..."Derek Anderson has had over 1000 snaps, played great, and the fans don't want him. Brady Quinn has had 10 snaps, played great, and the fans think he's the answer."

    But in both cases, and I hope we fit this category next season, the QB position was solved. Going into last season, the Browns didn't have 1 QB they could believe in. Now they have two. And one of these guys will probably net them a first round pick next season.
     
  22. SuncoastFinsFan

    SuncoastFinsFan Banned

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    ROFL...You are going to "poke holes in my theory" and yet your first graphic made my point. Henne has more played more games than Beck. And certain UM is a tougher conference than the Mountain West Blue Sky or whatever BYU plays in.
     
  23. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Just some background on Beck's performance last year, for those who are questioning why he is getting hype/praise, even though he did not look good in his four games or whatever he played.

    While Trent Green was still playing, Beck was getting zero snaps. Zero. No coaching. As the third QB, he ran the scout team all week. Nothing out of the ordinary, I guess that's what 3rd QBs do. I'm not sure of rules, maybe they could have practice squad QBs do this (can someone confirm?) but whatever, he was running the scout team.

    Ok, so Trent Green goes down. This usually means you pick up another QB, since you elevate Beck to the #2 QB, and he goes in if Cleo Lemon gets injured. So you give him some snaps, some coaching, get him ready to go, right? Wrong. Cam Cameron in all his wonderful glory, goes to gametime with 2 QBs on the roster only. Not sure who his 3rd emergency QB is, if any (probably Marty Booker or something). And Beck continues to run the scout team. Yes, the genius head coach starts Sunday with 1 qb who had any practice and training with the offense, for two weeks. Our #2 QB, Beck, was still running the scout team, and not getting any snaps with the offense. So up until now, he's had some coaching during the preseason, but no substantive training with the real team and real offenses (just the vanilla stuff during the preseason).

    For two weeks, Cam/Mueller refuse to pick up another Qb, Beck still runs the scout team. Finally they cave in, and pick up another QB. So he doesn't get off the scout team until they go to London, against the Giants. Two weeks later, with the Phins floundering, Cameron was desperate and inserts Beck hoping for a spark. After two weeks of real practice and snaps (even though it was 2nd team for a bit) he gets thrown in with the wolves.

    Sorry for the long detail there. It was clear, Cam was in over his head and did not know what he was doing. It came out this offseason that he barely got any coaching from Cameron, the QB guru, and I don't doubt it. Cam was just not cut out for HC duties. If you want to judge Beck on what he did last year, by all means go for it. Just remember, he got one week of 2nd team practice, one week of 1st team practice before he started. That's essentially it.

    Beck has all the intangibles you want to see in a QB. He fumbled a bit, but never really had a problem with that before, I would think he can correct that with time, with actual snaps in practice during the week. But he's smart, a stupendous hard worker, quick release, good arm, good accuracy. You see him go through his progressions/checkdowns, why would we not want him on the field with a real chance to succeed before we deem his successor?
     
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  24. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    How about you look at STL's previous post on common opponents during the same year that Henne and Beck played against (sorry if STL already posted this in this thread, I didn't see it)

    http://forums.thephins.com/showpost.php?p=150972&postcount=41

    As you say Beck played in a weaker conference, so his team and supporting cast was weaker.
     
  25. GISH

    GISH ~mUST wARN oTHERS~

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    Over Yonder
    It's not Henne's fault that he is a god. He is like Beck, but younger, stronger, and with more big game experience. Step off his parade trail, and soak in the fumes of greatness.

    EDIT: BTW, I now have the best SIG of all time.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2008
  26. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    so Cameron in his rookie year is over his head and didnt know what he was doing but Beck in his rookie year shouldnt be judged by his play because there were extenuating circumstances
     
  27. GISH

    GISH ~mUST wARN oTHERS~

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    I agree. Beck has yet to be tested, or given a chance to prove he can succeed under Sparano. It's great having more than one option to be the future of your franchise. Perhaps we should have thought of this 8 years ago. To me, its Henne vs Beck, we can't lose. I hope they are both outstanding, it would be nice to have too many good qbs, rather than another decade of none.
     
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  28. Vaark

    Vaark Si Hoc Legere Scis Nimium

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    but we might have the makings of a Garrard, Brees and Gannon battling it out, and that wouldn't be too bad. Palmer's already wasted on Cinci and would certainly be wasted on us.
     
  29. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Comparing the job performance of a coach who has been in the league for many years and has been labeled an offensive genius and QB guru by his peers......with a rookie QB who wasn't prepared to play is silly IMO.

    Yes, Cam was in way over his head. I fully believe that the only reason we hired Cam was because of his status as a great offensive coach. The only way we could secure his services was to make him the HC and Cam overextended himself by taking on the OC duties as well, something that is tough for any headcoach to attempt. Because he played dual roles, the offense was absolutely horrid and bland and he lost his players because he wasn't focused on his leadership responsibilities.

    Beck on the otherhand was a rookie player trying to adjust to the speed of the NFL game, trying to learn a whole new playbook, he wasn't getting the necessary preparation to step in and play if called upon and his supporting cast was embarrassing, injured, out of shape and unmotivated. The plan was to keep him on the bench for the year ala Philip Rivers in San Diego.

    If you want to make the comparison, then Cam put himself in an unfavorable position and Beck was thrown into an unfavorable position. Huge difference. :wink2:
     
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  30. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    They lost out on compensation for a Top 5 QB, so I completely disagree.

    Not really, regardless with which QB starts, they have a high priced player warming the bench. They were impatient with their QB situation and wasted very valuable draft picks to jump back into the first round to select Quinn. If he sits, those picks are pretty much wasted. They could have used those picks this year to help improve their team.

    Talking to Cleveland fans on another board, they aren't thrilled with Anderson because he is far from accurate (even with 2 Probowl receivers) and not worth what they are paying him, and they aren't exactly smitten with Quinn either. It may be a small sample to judge from, but I repsect their opinions.

    Highly unlikely, but I hope you're right.
     
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  31. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    We are a rebuilding team in year 1 of a long process back to respectability. The "promised land" shouldn't even be a consideration at this point. We have time to develop our young QB's and if they fail we have a decent veteran option to fall back on.

    Both Roth and Crowder have gotten into trouble this offseason. Starks was arrested a few years ago for assaulting his girlfriend. Ricky....'nuff said. Point is, the FO made it a point to say that they wanted players who weren't going to be "problem children", yet they didn't discipline Roth or Crowder and they brought in 2 more.

    Totally agree
     
  32. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    I can kind of agree with that in general. I will say that the offensive schemes Cam employed were better than we've had here in quite some time. He didnt have the players to execute them but you could see if given time that offense was going to hum. Where he failed miserably was in getting control of the lockerroom. His mind was too much in the playbook and not enough in his players heads. He lost control of the team but I am not convinced he would have had that problem in year two. Still as you pointed out, he's the one who made the error of judgement. If anything has changed its that the players will no longer control the lockerroom. We should all be thankful for that

    Beck was thrown into a bad situation and panicked when the first thing went wrong and thereby made it worse. Lets just say his intangibles sucked. One year wiser hopefully, he'll relax and let er rip. Personally the things that please most posters here concern me regarding Beck. Someone who has his wife help him practice, plays with his Chicken McNuggets to draw up plays, studies while grocery shopping actually creeps me out and concerns me more than instills me with confidence. He's putting too much pressure on himself IMO just like last year and I fear he will unravel once again when things go wrong. He comes across as someone who is too tightly wound. Personally I feel until the guy relaxes and just lets the chips fall where they may he will never succeed. Stop trying to be the perfect QB and just be yourself.

    Even though he was thrown into a bad situation I think he made it worse by the way he handled it. Hopefully he learned the right lessons from last year
     
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  33. like2god

    like2god Typical white person Luxury Box

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    Totally agree.

    I actually thought at the time that he should have been given a chance to right the ship. Then I read how out of control the lockerroom was and how players were turning on him and I realized that he wouldn't be able to win them back. Too bad, I think his offensive knowledge really could have helped Ronnie, Beck and Ginn.

    There might be something to that, but you have to understand that he was trying to make the best of a bad situation. He knew the pressure he was under when he was drafted, every QB knows that they are here to "replace Marino". Now imagine how he felt being thrown into a situation and not being prepared for it. I'll use an analogy of taking a very good EMT off the back of an ambulance and throwing him into surgery. He may have alot of knowledge and be able to do alot of things to save a persons life, but he doesn't have the ability to do open heart surgery because he was never schooled (prepared) for it. I don't blame Beck for feeling the pressure and making mistakes, he's human too.

    As far as drawing up plays with McNuggets and having his wife help him, I love a player who is always thinking about improving themselves. It may seem a little crazy to some, but I think it shows just how dedicated this guy is to doing well and being ready when his time comes. His name was called ALOT sooner than he thought and he had trouble adjusting. Now he knows that he's coming into camp with a chance to play, so he should be better prepared and more comfortable. If he fails, we move on. But I want to see what he can do with a better supporting cast and more comfort with his position on the team. Being jerked in and out of the lineup isn't going to help any player, especially a rookie (last year).
     
  34. jdang307

    jdang307 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    No. You have the answer in your comment. There were extenuating circumstances regarding Beck, he received barely any coaching and was thrown in with the wolves. There are no extenuating circumstances with Cameron. He made a mistake 99% of this board would not have done. He went into gametime with 2 QBs and gave his #2 QB no practice snaps. None. Was he hoping Willie Steamen Beamen was sitting on the bench?

    Cam would get a pass if he came in mid-season after Wanny effed it up all season and then threw Cameron in with the wolves. Not the same thing by far. I still think Cam did good by improving the offense but he made some decisions even rookie coaches shouldn't make.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2008
  35. jaxdolfan

    jaxdolfan Journeyman

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    Everything that is hyped is to sell tickets. Hyping the backup sells preseason tickets.

    Plus Beck looked awful last year. So awful, he made Lemon look as good as Feidler.
     
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  36. adamprez2003

    adamprez2003 Senior Member

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    Look I'm happy that we got Parcells, a proven winner. But having said that to say Cameron had no extenuating circumstances is silly. He was the first coach we had that looked at our roster and decided to blow it up, probably thinking he had a couple of years to rebuild it. Him getting caught flatfooted by all the injuries that decimated our team had as much to do with the sorry squad he inherited as to some of the missteps he made and the bad luck this team fell under. Poor squad + decimating injuries = no chance in hell you're going to accomplish anything. Its a wonder we were in as many games as were with that squad. Where Cameron failed was in two areas 1)losing control of the players late in the season where it seemed we started turning on each other and 2) not being able to get the team up to speed early in the seasn before it became completely hopeless(which is somewhat understandable due to a brand new offense installed and the preseason injuries to defense.)

    Cameron failed, there is no doubt but what kind of success could any coach pull out of that quagmire of a team? 3 wins? 4? Parcells makes the move to get rid of Cameron a step forward.

    But I dont think you can stamp a final grade on Cameron because he undertook a two or three year project that got cut off after only one year. Do you really think there would have been dissension on the team when the entire roster was filled with his players? Do you really think we would be as bad if he had gotten another year to draft players to fit his scheme and the players we kept had a full year of experience under their belts? What can you possibly judge on Cameron? You let him start making the meal and then pulled it out of the oven while it was still uncooked and declared that the meal sucked.

    Bottom line we got a proven winner over an interesting prospect coach. Maybe he never would have learned from his mistakes. But we'll never know. To me Cameron and Beck are almost identical situations with one getting one last shot to prove himself and the other one being throw overboard for a future hall of famer. Absolutely the right move but as far as I'm concerned the grade on Cameron is still incomplete just as it is for Beck at this stage
     
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  37. Vaark

    Vaark Si Hoc Legere Scis Nimium

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    It's a tad disingenuous how Beck critics don't want to cut him any slack for his "handicaps" of little practice, injuries to most of his offensive weapons, poor coaching and a porous OL of which more than 70% have been replaced...BUT many are quick to point out that Henne's deflating numbers this year was due to his shoulder separation and other injuries and shouldn't be taken out of that context. Well, to me, with the stud Mallott waiting in the wings, there's no reason Carr would have played Henne if he didn't think he was capable of winning those games. From that perspective I see little distinction between Henne's obstacles and those of a rookie QB thrown into games in hostile territory, bad weather with little practice and fewer offensive weapons. If Henne could get on the field and play, for all intents and purposes he probably had more going for him than did Beck.

    I keep repeating that I have high hopes for Henne and am pleased with the value he represented. Still, in some fans' quest to glorify and anoint him, especially at Beck's expense, I consider it the utmost in hypocrisy to fault Beck's poor play for what was in effect his disabilities while excusing Henne's inconsistent play this year because of his disabilities. Sorry, it just doesn't compute.
     
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  38. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    That's just the way it is with the media and by extension, some of the fans.Aas long as Henne isn't starting, Henne will always be the answer. Even if Beck looks good, he'll have that question mark sitting on the bench behind him. Someone once said that the most popular player on the team is always the backup QB, and that's certainly been the case here in Miami and probably always will be.
     
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  39. Marino1983

    Marino1983 Junior Member

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    Henne is more of a Parcells type of qb...

    But I truly doubt that Parcells will ever show anyone favoritism when it comes to picking the starters on any facit of the game.

    The thing I like about drafting Henne is that it put even more pressure on J Beck to show he is the better qb..



    Marino1983
     
  40. Marino1983

    Marino1983 Junior Member

    184
    20
    0
    Mar 23, 2008
    :thumbup:
    Nothing more needs to be added!



    Marino1983
     

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