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The Henne argument...why does it exist?

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by vt_dolfan, Aug 14, 2011.

  1. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. If someone is violating the forum's TOS, then report them.

    If nobody is violating the TOS, then you shouldn't be criticizing them.

    The amount of time people spend here discussing other posters is baffling.
     
  2. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    thank you for the compassion. People don't always see the first stones cast, and typically the second ones are cast even further, and hence become more noticeable. Some of the posters who have crapped on my threads have also crapped on other opening posters' threads, which I then also stand up for (call it solidarity I guess). So you could have 20 different people poop on my thread and poop on another's thread and you're not going to notice it, but when I respond back to these 20 individuals on more than 1 occasion, it seems like I'm doing nothing but attacking people.
    Well I apologize if there was a miscommunication b/c I was actually interpreting it as you seeming condescending by trying to make it seem like you were too good to re-watch film and could see everything the first time around that took myself, DJ, or GM multiple occasions to fully comprehend. If that wasn't your intention, then I'm sorry for jumping to conclusions.

    [/quote]I'll admit, just going back briefly and looking, I don't read all the responses that have caused an emotional retort. And I'm sorry for generalizing you as the main culprit in many of these ordeals. Because, I've got to assume that there was a deluge of trash in the middle there that may have created a tipping point, sometimes from me myself. I have a strong tendency to reply and "single you out" by responding to your posts. This isn't done intentionally, but I think it's a result of you bring up some valid arguments that I have a strong disagreement to, the history of quarrels between you and I, and the subject matter.[/quote] I have no problem with any poster disagreeing, especially someone who also makes a valid argument. Without it, this place would be boredom. You realize that some of your quarrels came from you jumping in and standing up for members who had previously attacked/belittled my beliefs and as such I had completely lost respect for them? That's why I've been very short at times in response to you. Nothing more annoying than being attacked by someone, then you respond back sharply, and then someone else stands up for the person doing the initial attacking. I know you're supposed to hit the "report" button, but when you're one of the main advocates of a controversial matter (and you have thousands of posts related to it), it becomes difficult to turn your cheek every time. There are also a few members here who like to argue for the sake of arguing and will see an opening to stand up against someone just for the fun of it despite not knowing what the initial cause was.


    the thread you referenced might have been about the QB position and involved Henne, but it was completely new information that had previously not been discussed, and it also involved our offensive performance as a whole rather than the same ole Henne tirade. There were actually a lot of members who appreciated the new information, but you posted negatively as if you were speaking for everyone. If you were my editor and I let your feelings influence my opening post, then there would have been a handful of members not getting the enjoyment out of the thread that they got as there were probably 1500 or so views to it. Don't these people have the right to enjoy stuff even if you don't? Respectfully, where is it stated that if Red doesn't like the premise of an OP that no one will? Hypothetically, if I know only 20 people will get enjoyment out of a thread, does that mean that I should squash the idea b/c 100 members think it's a waste of time? Do those 20 people deserve to have their forum experience reduced (especially when the other 100 members can read the title and simply decide to not respond)?


    if there's a tasteless attack or insult to an opening post, and someone thanks that tasteless post, then I take notice of it. If I see those same people thanking other attacking posts (or making degrading posts of their own), then I take further notice. Depending on the frequency & severity of it, I most definitely will lose respect for the poster.

    I have no problem with anyone disagreeing to a post or thread no matter how much time I invest. However, "disapproving" doesn't equate to attacking etc. I do my fair share of attacking, but it's most always toward someone who's initially attacked me or another member (about the same subject) who had previously not attacked that person.

    Then the same goes for me. I have no problem with that. I'd prefer to be diplomatic than quarrelsome.
     
  3. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I dont believe in the reporting sh%$ to the mods Stringer, nor do I believe in that ignore thingy button...were all men here, lets handle our business in the forums is what I like to do, and at least try to become better, more understanding of our differences type posters, and make the site a great place...

    I search a lot of the enemy's sites...This is the best site imo bar none in terms of conduct and comraderie..

    Now if you call me a ''ThePhins'' homer iam reportin ur ***...lol
     
  4. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    With all due respect, by doing that you are making the problem worse. Its everyone's responsibility. If someone is personally attacked, they'll just respond with a personal attack. It degrades the forum as a whole, and the reason there is a TOS here.
     
  5. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I like to think people can be nice..I've never used it, don't see the need to, not sure what even constitutes the action of reporting something..I guess what Iam saying is, if its directed at me, thats fine, I'll deal with it myself..If thats wrong, then I'am sorry..I think a goal of this board is respecting each other, and policing each other in a way where we handle things before they get escalated..
     
  6. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I agree with you.

    2 things to respectfully consider though.

    1. When a member attacks an opening post (especially one you spend a good deal of time on), you take it a little more personally, and it's tougher to ignore than if it were regarding a 1 or 2 sentence post in the middle of a thread. It's human nature.

    2. When someone is one of the more outspoken advocates of a controversial subject, they're going to receive more than a typical amount of attacks or belittling for having a different opinion. Ask DJ. I guarantee the amount of attacks he received after becoming a Henne supporter has risen drastically compared to his 1st few years here..... so it doesn't surprise me that I've seen the typically calm mannered DJ lose his composure more often than previously.

    Now, should I be following the TOS by using the report button every time and keeping my mouth shut? Absolutely. However, after enough of these, it becomes harder to use the "report" button every time b/c it's human nature to want to stand up for yourself, especially if you're a type A personality.
     
  7. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I agree.

    And when I brought up threads emphasizing "our ground game's lack of 1st down production being a detriment to the offense, and as such, a portion of the draft and FA should be dedicated to improving this weakness", too many posters turned it into a Henne bashing thread (saying stuff like "Henne sucks", "quit making excuses for Henne", "Henne's not a good QB if he can't win games on his", or "this is garbage; we need a franchise QB" when in fact running with success on first down is an extremely critical area of our offense (especially when our team's philosophy is built around running the ball).
     
  8. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    You don't need to give me credit for anything if you have a differing opinion, especially related to a controversial subject. That's not something that's easy to do. IMO you can acknowledge someone's effort w/o having to contradict your opposing beliefs.

    Call me selfish, but if it's obvious I've spent a while creating a thread, I'd at least like to be respected for it. Not crediting me is ok. Choosing to not agree with me is ok. I don't expect that from everyone, and that's not why I create threads; however, that doesn't mean I feel it's ok if I'm hard work is dismissed, just as I make a conscious effort to not dismiss anyone else's hard work even though I man not agree with it.

    And when I use stats, I try to stick with ones that are significant in nature, but it seems far too often I'm criticized (by a lot of posters) for "cherry picking random stats" to help support an argument just b/c my opinion differs and they don't want to hear any argument that opposes their own.... and the poster doesn't have the decency to support their criticizing post with any counter argument of their own. I can honestly say---- that becomes extremely annoying.

    Do you know what I do when I feel greatly opposed to someone's rational post? I take the time to make sure I have something of substance in rebuttal, and I do so b/c I feel people's rational opinions deserve that much respect. Many of my time consuming threads have come as a result of me disagreeing with someone else's valid opinion.
     
  9. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I have never cherry picked stats. I think that's unethical and a great way to lose credibility for any hard work you've done.

    It may "appear" as though I've cherry picked stats b/c of how well Henne has done in some of those stats, but they were not cherry picked. Rafael has been involved in the game for a while; he knows first hand that the stats I used are far from trivial or insignificant. If the stat is an important stat, it's an important stat. Just b/c a QB happens to do well in that stat, it doesn't make the stat cherry picked.

    All the stats I've used are significant to the game & the QB position..... or were in context with the history of the game.
    Just b/c I don't point out his negative stuff doesn't mean the stuff I point out is meaningless or cherry picked. There are enough Henne non-believing members here to where I shouldn't have to do all the work and argue both sides or highlight & explain the negative stats.

    I support Henne, so I bring up the pro side. IMO it's the responsibility of the non believers to bring up the negative side, not mine, just as a defense attorney isn't going to help out the plaintiff's side. lol. Don't just call mine out as cherry picking; give counter stats that suggest the significant stats I mentioned might not be enough to give him the benefit of the doubt of one more season.
     
  10. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    That's a blanket statement that comes across a little insulting in the context of the discussion. It sounds like you're saying my opening posts lacked quality; therefore the time spent creating them is meaningless and deserves any ridicule they received.

    If you feel the length of time spendt attempting to make a post of quality is insignificant and not worthy of respect, then I'll have to highly disagree with you.
     
  11. evz

    evz Feral Druid Club Member

    I think there is too much tendency to try to make things black or white when in fact there are infinite shades of grey in between... I see a lot of posts that clearly fall into the grey opinion, yet they are treated as if they are completely at either pole, black or white. Many times it seems as if people here are taking out their frustrations with the team on other members here. Nobody here is responsible for the team, it's success, or lack thereof. That should be obvious but some times it doesn't seem like everybody understands that...
     
  12. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Last year, I would've have disagreed with this b/c it was only his 2nd year, and he wasn't in the most favorable of circumstances.

    now that this is year 3 starting, I expect him to be more experienced and more prepared to take on this role on occasion, just not week in and week out since he is still developing. We made improvements and addressed weaknesses; we also finally made an attempt to make the offense more about Henne rather than just sticking Henne in the offense and saying "have at it, kid!".

    If Henne has a future in the NFL, I expect him to improve at the rate in which the offense & coaching around him improves, while tacking on an extra 10% or so for him now being more seasoned, prepared, and in a more QB friendly offense. The offense is new, and some of our key upgrades are rookies, not to mention the lock out, so I'm not expecting the surrounding cast to make an immediate impression; therefore, I'm not expecting Henne to make as much of an improvement early in the year as I'll be expecting by midseason...... which means I'll be more tolerant of mistakes early in the year, but not so tolerant half way in.

    If he improves at a greater rate in comparison, then we could have a QB; if he improves at a lesser rate, then we're looking for a replacement.

    This is about as objective of Henne as I personally can get.
     
  13. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I WAS going to graciously accept your apology which I didn't see at first b/c I was still busy responding (in chronological order) to your earlier obnoxious post as well as responding to your post about "cherry picking stats" for the purpose of making Chad Henne appear to be a better QB than he actually is. You've actually done more insulting in this thread (3 different occasions now) than anything else.

    This type of kindergarten drivel is a great way to show you're not classless, let me tell ya.
     
  14. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Just so we're clear, Monster. Because I'm one of the most outspoken Henne supporters, you're saying it means I should have to put up with possibly the most amount of crap on the forum (with your most recent post being yet another prime example)?
     
  15. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Accept it, don't accept it. Do whatever makes you happy brother. You say I've been insulting yet you've referred to me as classless and unintelligent on more than one occasion. Whether you're upset at someone not giving your threads "respect" or just generally bent out of shape by objective criticism of your favorite player, you seem to have a hard time dealing with stuff.
     
  16. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    proving yet again that you only care about insulting members rather than reading anything in the thread.

    You insult me--- I refer to it as classless. You insult me again---- I continue to refer to it as classless. It wasn't the other way around.

    I have no problem ignoring you so no worries b/c you only seem hell bent on degrading me while dismissing anything I've said. There are enough quality posters here to where I can do without your approval.

    "Objective criticism"? So a ridiculous "stat monkey comment" is now considered objective?
    How about when you tell someone <whom you disagree with> that they are just "cherry picking" stats to make someone look better than he really is" b/c you're apparently right and the other person is wrong? Is that "objective"?
    How about when you don't even follow up your comment/criticism with ANY rebuttal whatsoever? Still "objective"?


    But hey, when MonsterBlitz is involved, he doesn't have to support any statement b/c, if two people have different opinions, the person with the opposing opinion is the subjective excuse-maker who's wrong while Monster is the objective one who's right all the time. :glare:
     
  17. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    I never claimed mine was objective criticism. I said you are upset by disrespecting threads (stat monkey comment) OR objective criticism of your favorite player (Henne). And I've seen you plenty bent in enough Henne threads to know that's also true.

    You can be upset all you want about the stat monkey thing. Fact is, it was joke. A tongue in cheek comment. THAT HAPPENED MONTHS AGO. Couple people found it funny, but you took offense. I'm sorry. Like I said, next time I disagree with your liberties with statistics, I'll keep it to myself.

    I'm sorry I've bummed you out. It bothers me to know I've had a negative impact on someone's day from some nonsense I posted on a message board today or a couple months ago. I forget to realize some people take my comments more seriously than I intended anyone to take them.
     
  18. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    This pretty much sums it up, IMO.
    We, as a fan base, are so desperate for the next Marino to come along that is has made us all collectively crazy.
    If fan "A" has decided the current starter in the next Marino, he will fight for him until the cows come home.
    While fan "B", who has decided the current starter is not the next Marino, will bash him every chance he gets.
     
  19. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    like I said, MB.... in the middle of thread, I might even laugh at a "stat monkey" picture that's a response to a normal post. However, when it's a response to an opening post that obviously took a while to make, it doesn't sound like a joke at all.

    I don't have a problem with anyone disagreeing with anything I say. I'm not asking anyone to keep their rational opinions to themselves. However, if someone tells me I'm wrong b/c my opinion differs from theirs, then I expect the same courtesy in return like I used when I created my post in the first place. I don't just say "Henne's gonna be a stud; you guys are making excuses for his future brilliance, blahhhhhh!"; I spend time backing up my beliefs.

    Let me rephrase that. Let's say I spend a few hours coming up with support for something I believe in, and then someone else comes along and basically says "You're wrong b/c you don't believe what I believe, and b/c I think I'm right I don't need to give any support to my argument. All I have to say is you're wrong, and you have to accept that". Now, am I supposed to take offense to someone calling me wrong (including insults)..... or am I supposed to respect and believe what they say just b/c they say it?

    Why is it the hours of work that I put into my beliefs are NOT good enough for people who disagree, but the 2 second "you're wrong b/c Henne sucks and you're just making excuses" comment is perfectly acceptable? It's been like this probably 80+% of the time....... and it seems like a large percentage of the people who don't believe in Henne exhibit some sense of entitlement regarding their posting.
     
  20. Xeticus

    Xeticus Junior Member

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    I think Henne has been dropped in a bad situation. Up until now he's had crap coaching. Dan Henning didn't use him well. Hopefully Dabull can make better use of him. I still wish we had gotten a more accomplished OC. Someone who has been known to develop QB's well in the past.
     
  21. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    I already feel much better about Daboll than I do Henning..... in every regard. I think he knows how to better use the personnel we have, and I also think he knows how to get more out of Henne.... at least that's my impression so far.

    I absolutely despised having an elite playmaker like Marshall here with conservative Henning not doing much to maximize this gift.
    It's bad enough Henning didn't adjust the playbook for Henne's needs; it's even worse he didn't do so for Brandon's. IMO he was an old stubborn fart hell-bent on doing it the way he's been doing it for years regardless of who the hell is in his offense. "I'm stuffing you into this round hole, and if you don't fit, I'm gonna try stuffing you some more"..... "So what if it hinders your career; it's better than an old dog like myself trying to come up with a new playbook." "1, 3, and 7 step drops? Ehhh, who needs em?! Defenses can know what's coming b/c we're just gonna out-execute you, and if we don't, @#%$ it, it's my players fault for not being sound enough."

    This guy has set us back more than anything else since 2008.
     
  22. Abbi Normal

    Abbi Normal Banned

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    Crowder on WQAM 560

    "As of what I've seen so far? No. I played with him a couple years ... He really hasn't proven anything to me when I played with him and now being on this side, looking down on him as a fan, he's not impressing me, either."

    Caddy my 12 gauge....
     
  23. emocomputerjock

    emocomputerjock Senior Member

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    I foresee a lot of posts attacking Crowders career in the near future.
     
  24. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    man, that was a damning interview, he does not like Jeff Ireland, and thinks Henne sucks..

    There seems to be a lot of reasons for this team to implode...It all comes down to Sparano..can he keep his team united during these most adverse times..
     
  25. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Yikes. I didn't even think about this.

    I always liked Crowder's candor. I didn't even think about him opening up about the team. A guy that still has strong friends and ties with the team could really put some harsh words about the QB situation.

    It's a little bit reminding me of the NYG situation with Tiki Barber. Then again, Eli Manning went on to win a Super Bowl that year.
     
  26. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Going out on a limb, huh?

    I mean, it's not like we haven't seen a lot of attacks on Crowder's career in the recent past too. :pity:
     
  27. rdhstlr23

    rdhstlr23 Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I think it's about time Chad Henne stands up and shows his leadership. This isn't running offseason workouts. Leading by example, aka winning will help a lot. I mean it sounds simple, but all he needs to do is play well and this all goes away.
     
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  28. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Do you think Crowder feels this way about any other players on the team? I'd guess that if he was asked, and was being honest, he wouldn't say many "good" things about most of the players on offense.

    Also, I wonder how many players from other teams don't care for thier GM? I'd guess that most players don't. Being a GM means you have to be pretty harsh with your players that aren't "superstars". I'm sure a lot of hardworking players feel slighted by their GM's because of this.

    That's like saying you hope Apple does well because their employee's think Steve Jobs is a douche.
     
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  29. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Mr. C is gonna love your avatar, lol..he actually might have his way with it..lol
     
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  30. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    In case any of you have missed it, there is a 35 page thread raging right now primarily discussing whether the first INT was Fasano's fault, or Henne's. Missed in all of this is the fack that it doesn't ****ING MATTER whose fault it was. Still a turnover. If this is what this board is in for all season long, that being a 40 page thread on every Henne INT, I'm going to gouge my eyeballs out of my skull.
     
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  31. mbmonk

    mbmonk I have no clue

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    I am hoping that the topics discussed will broaden once we see more games. Rookies, Oline, etc. It will broaden out... I hope :)
     
  32. Abbi Normal

    Abbi Normal Banned

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    Who knows but if you look at the end of the last season ...well I won't say what I saw because it wasn't positive...
    Just something for each individual to think about.

    But I can say if we're not winning it will be harder........
     
  33. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Don't do it brother, we need ya', but I hear ya'. This has become like Sartre's "No Exit"
     
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  34. the 23rd

    the 23rd a.k.a. Rio

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    Thread: The Henne argument...why does it exist?

    because he's a third rate, second round choice that continues to ****** the offense
     
  35. ToddsPhins

    ToddsPhins Banned

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    Ehh, it's probably easier for him to cast stones at others than accept the fact that his defense allowed some costly big plays the past 2 years.
     
  36. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    So you feel his pain, huh?

    Sent from my PB99400 using Tapatalk
     
  37. MonstBlitz

    MonstBlitz Nobody's Fart Catcher

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    Hehehehe. ****** the offense. That made me laugh. For all the wrong reasons.
     
  38. PSG

    PSG Clear Eyes. Full Hearts.

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    I just finished having my way with it.....
     

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