I think if the ball leads Fasano, and Robinson maintains his speed/continues to close on his original path he's right there. I know CK says he's 7 yards away, and we've debated that in another thread. From the moment it touches Fasano, Robinson is 3.5-4 yards away from him up the field. Granted, the pick comment is just a continuation of the thought along the lines of pass break up etc. I don't think the pass was as bad as it has been made out to be. The pass hits Fasano in the 0 of his number.
If it did thats fine. As for the discussion, as long as its of a sensible nature I'm all for it. Hell we've all been pining away about real football to talk about for months. We're just getting back into form regarding this stuff.
I think this topic moved past the 'getting ridiculous' phase to the 'gotten ridiculous' phase, several pages ago.
Only when it's Henne related can a guy make a good throw under pressure while his delivery is impeded and it still gets twisted into "he #%$@ed up some how". A defender could sprout from a trap door and the play would still somehow be entirely Henne's fault.
I mentioned that 20 or so pages ago. You know Henne has to slightly lead him by hitting the 8 of his number and since he hit the 0, he is 2-3 feet off target, somehow. That still has not be explained clearly enough for me to understand. But then I'm just a simple country boy who has never been exposed to them thar big fancy universities ya all got back east.
You're doing the exact same thing! Seeing what the heck you think. So Fasano having to turn his back to Robinson is all of a sudden better??????? I don't think so, and if I'm a bigger player like Fasano is over Robinson, I'd want to be face to face with him in that situation.
The pass came in at a very catchable velocity but it hit Fasano while he was seperated between the two defenders. A lead pass would have done the same thing. IMO, no way Robinson is there to even get a hand on it. He could have laid some wood on Fasano but Abraham was about to lay wood on him as well because the pass made Fasano pause to turn his body. Not one arguement out of me that it was a catchable pass, or that Fasano ****ed up the play. I'm saying I want to see those passes, passes that Henne has sometimes stuggled with, hit the reciever in stride with the same velocity he used...
What I'm saying that either throw would be fine. The throw he made was fine as it wasn't leading him right into Robinson and the other one in front of him would have made it easier to catch. Either is fine, but the bottom line is Fasano dropped a ball 9th graders in High School can make.
That may be your read of it, but it is not the insulting assertion that you would say. If the accuracy of the ball was thrown off by a player hitting his harm, he should have made sure nobody could hit his arm. That's up to the quarterback to prevent players hitting his arm while he throws, to slide his feet, change his motion and platform, and make sure he gets the ball out. Having your arm be hit while you throw is dangerous. Not only can it get you hurt (see Pennington), but it results in bad plays and especially interceptions. So yeah, it's a part of pocket presence. I don't see what reason there is for you to get so upset about it and take it so personal. It's a very reasonable assertion. Dare I say, even the right one.
Which is a way of saying what, that it's ridiculous to disagree with you? "Stop overthinking it. Just make sure you think the way I think," is that it?
Nice screen capture. I like this one better. It displays what I'm saying, that the distance between where the ball was thrown and where the ball should have been thrown was about 3 feet. What compounds the problem is that if you watch the play frame by frame, Anthony Fasano sees the ball coming in behind him instead of on his front shoulder where it should be. You see the left leg he has planted on the ground in the screen cap? He used that leg when he planted it to slow down his forward momentum as best he could, by pushing more vertically with the leg so that he could leap and twirl around for the ball thrown behind him. Had the ball been coming where it was supposed to, he could have maintained his momentum and run through the catch. If that had happened and he hadn't arrested his momentum with that left leg as it planted, his core would have actually been even further to the left at the frame you see captured. As you'll notice, Dunta Robinson is only BARELY in the frame. He's 7 yards away by the time the ball gets there. He's not a factor.
Drives me crazy how many yards the team leaves on the field due to Henne's inaccuracy. Interceptions aside that drives me nuts.
This is true..... if it's absolutely needed. In this case it wasn't needed. Delaying this pass by sliding his feet has a greater likelihood of leading to a busted play with the defender appearing to beat Thomas. The pass attempt trumps a potential busted play IMO b/c it wasn't guaranteed that the stunting defender would get a hand on the action. As a QB I think you're counting on your back sustaining his block long enough to get the pass off while the opportunity is there. If Henne delays his throw a smidge, the CB squatting on the play now has a better chance of making a pick. I also don't feel this is a situation where Henne should've adjusted his arm angle b/c he had a pretty clear throwing lane until the defender got his hand in at the last second, and it wasn't known exactly where the defenders hand would be. Now, I completely agree about your overall premise, and I think you make a great point about preventing injury and paying attention to how his pocket presence has or hasn't evolved. I just don't think it applies in this situation. If a DE were thundering down unabated from the outside and Henne attempts a 12-6 arm motion pass through the defender at 2 feet away, then I'm absolutely complaining that he needs to first focus on either dropping down side arm or sliding to avoid the rush. I was only taking it personally if you had an ulterior motive to your post; if you didn't, then there's nothing to take personally. It just becomes good conversation & debate.
I think you also have to look at Incognito & Pouncing combo blocking, specifically the location of Pouncey's right shoulder/helmet upon Henne's release, and whether or not Henne even has a chance to lead Fasano b/c of it. If you go back to the video and: A. look at where Henne is during his release. B. look at where Pouncey is during Henne's release. C. draw a line from Henne's release point to where Fasano botches the pass (not where Fasano is when Henne throws the pass). It looks like Pouncey could be in the part of the throwing lane that would allow Henne to properly lead Fasano (even if the Henne's arm weren't impeded by the defender). Just saying....... it's a live game, not 1 vs 1 route running. There are a lot of variables that enter the equation rather than simply reducing to "that was a poor throw b/c it wasn't perfectly thrown Fasano in stride".
Fasano dropping the ball, and screwing up the play has never been in question from what I've seen. I don't agree about the pass though. I'd have much rather seen it hit him in the chest to the front of his body. In stride...
Fair enough. It drives me nuts how many yards this team as a whole leaves on the field. Henne's had his fair share, but this entire team has been at fault (blown defensive TO opportunities, no return game, running backs who can't quite squeak through the second level to break the big run, and receivers & backs botching passes down field). If you're upset with everyone, then I can totally relate, but if you're singling out Henne and absolving everyone else, that's a little extreme IMO. For as many plays that Henne left on the field, there were close to as many throws that he did put on the money that our guys simply had no ability to turn into chunk yardage, but that aspect goes unnoticed b/c it's something we have to actually stop and think about. If we can bridge that gap (on both ends, Henne included), then I'll be much happier.
Thank you! That's exactly how I saw it when I was watching the game and in the re-runs. I just can not believe it's been debated this much!!
Fair enough then... Look at the space. Catch the god damn ball... That is what Fasano is paid to do. I bet if you asked him he is pissed he let that one get away. There is a is a ton to say about looking past catching the football. Both hands on the ball. First mistake not catching the ball. Second mistake the bobble.
Why would he have to delay in order to slide his feet or change his release point? These are things he already should be doing if he sensed pressure. If your arm gets hit as you throw and it only affected the trajectory by 3 feet on a 13 yard through, then you're lucky. If your arm is in danger of getting hit while you're throwing the ball, you need to use your feet and release to clear the throw. Allowing your arm to get hit during the act of throwing just because you think it won't be particularly bad is a good way to end up with Pennington's shoulder problems, or to get the ball intercepted. This is why coaches teach quarterbacks not to have such wooden legs and feet, and to manipulate their passing lanes. The ideal you spoke of, "standing tall in the pocket" and being unreactive to pressure up front...that's not really what the NFL is looking for nowadays, if it ever was. It's just a phrase that you hear commentators say. They just mean they don't want panicky quarterbacks. That's true, the NFL doesn't want guys that panic and pull the ball down, hold it too long and generally don't know what to do with it. But they do want guys that breathe in the pocket, sense pressure, react seamlessly without taking their eyes off the field, and open up their own passing lanes. And so yes I absolutely say that if this isn't a case of inaccuracy, if it's a case where Henne's arm got hit, then this falls under the category of Henne being less than ideal in his pocket presence. And why should that really be a surprise? The bottom line is the ball did not go where it should have gone, and yet it's Chad Henne's job to get the ball where it should go. So he failed his job, one way or another, the question is just a matter of why.
I agree with you. I honestly don't know that anyone in this super duper long thread and super duper long argument has tried to hold Fasano blameless in this or even say that his drop was understandable. All I've been trying to say is, there were two mistakes on the play, one was clearly Fasano's and the other was Henne's. Fasano's mistake is only "bigger" than Henne's relative to the result of the play (interception, costly turnover). If John Abraham isn't trailing him on the play then it's just a drop and Fasano's mistake suddenly looks "smaller"...leastways a lot smaller than it looks currently knowing that there was an interception off the bobble. On the other hand, if Chad Henne did not make his mistake then it's arguable that there is a good chance Fasano would not have made his mistake, so it should also be seen in that context as well.
Yeah, but the question wasn't whether or not he should've caught the ball. We all pretty much agree that he should've caught the ball, but the question has been; should Henne have thrown it where he did or was it just or poorly placed pass? Also, the catch is harder than it looks considering he had to stop his momentum and reset himself and he doesn't have a lot of time considering it's a shorter, zip of a pass, but yes, it could have or should have been caught. It's just not as easy as one might think. JMO.
I think that's something to emphasize. Here's a second screen cap that shows Fasano's body as he's bobbled the ball. What you note here is how much his hips and torso have turned since the other picture above. This was the momentum he created off that plant foot when he saw the ball coming in behind him, a twisting momentum that would eventually take him in a complete counter-clockwise revolution. How many Tight Ends out there move east-west like that, can do a revolution while catching the ball, manage to stay on their feet while continuing to travel the same direction, so that they can go ahead and get some YAC? Not many. Certainly not many ones that are going to have a fighting chance of breaking Dunta Robinson's tackle. So again I emphasize, the NORMAL result of Henne's off-target throw would just be no yards after catch where you might have gotten some with a well placed throw. You don't reasonably expect a popped up interception just because you failed to place it on the front shoulder, although you must always keep in mind that it's an increased possibility.
Sorry man if you can't adjust to a pass in this league you just might not be good enough. I'll leave it at that.
i just spoke to guiness world records and its official. this is the most overanalyzed play of a first preseason gm in the history of the nfl. 32 pages debating a ten yd throw ok i lied.....i just drank a guinness
look at the route, the location of Pouncey & Incognito, where Fasano is, and where the defenders are. If Henne waits, this play takes on a completely different form. Fasano is now either into coverage or he's blocked by Incog or Pouncey. He knows Fasano has proper position to separate when he breaks to the outside, so there's no reason to not go with the throw that presents the greatest chance of success. He doesn't know that Thomas is about to whiff on his block, so there should be no reason to slide just for the heck of it. He knew where he was going with the pass and there was no apparent/potential threat until he was already into his delivery. I agree. However, this is a game of milliseconds; if a QB has to pull back and try for option B, C, D, or E during every potential problem, then he's in for trouble. He had a mostly clear passing lane; Fasano had position; you make the throw. I agree that the last thing you want to do is let your arm get hit. I just don't think this is a case where you're more concerned with your arm being hit than you are making the throw. It's not like the potential danger was on the front end of his delivery to where you HOPE the QB tries to avoid it; it was at his release point. Different situation IMO. Right.... and that's what Henne did. he didn't overreact. He didn't panic. He didn't take his eyes off the field (like has been complained about him in the past). He was cool, calm, and made the one pass he could make before the play breaks down (where even Vick has problems occasionally). The attempt to Fasano was the surest of all outcomes, and it should've been converted, and there's no beguiling that can convince me otherwise. Henne's other options: He could've needlessly slid to the right and attempted a pass to Bess who had a linebacker on top of him and could've very well had the linebacker or safety over Fasano now sending him to the hospital by the time the play developed further in Bess's route. Clay is on the left, but 5 lineman are standing in the way. Henne's peripheral vision likely sees the strong side DE disappearing out of sight on his arch. Holding up the pass likely has a greater chance of this DE blindsiding Henne from behind, stripping him, and potential injury/concussion. As an ex QB, I don't like having my eyes down field and not knowing where a defender is behind me. I'm making that throw and not risking getting killed (call it the lesser of 2 evils), and IMO there's a greater chance of injury on a busted play then there is on attempting that pass. The only other option is Hartline; however when a defender is closing in and you see your TE has position on the LB, why would you go through to another progression?
I disagree. It should fall into the category of a rookie whiffing on a block that your QB expects you to make. You cant play an entire game wondering if this guy or that guy is gonna make his block. How did it "not go where it should have"? It went to his target, an NFL player, smack in his hands w/o having to over-extend his arms. That's where it's supposed to go. Greg Olsen certainly didn't have a problem catching a TD from Clausen on a similarly located pass, and you don't hear anyone complaining about the pass location (probably not even from Carolina fans who don't like Clausen). You know why? Because it was caught..... just like it's supposed to be caught when it hits you even remotely close to your chest. I could've caught that pass with 9 broken fingers and dirt in my eye. My thumb and 1 eye, that's all I would've needed. So you can't say Henne "failed his job" b/c the ball wasn't perfectly placed during a live game where people are actually trying to stop him. Sometimes "in the vicinity" is all you can hope for, and "in the vicinity" should be enough at the NFL level to convert that attempt. And he's 11 yards away, not 7.
Absolutely not CK. It is my way of saying, we hashed this thing out back and forth so much now, there really isn't much either side can say, if anything, to convince the other, they are incorrect in their point of view on the matter. That is all.
Fans who cannot over analyze a play or discuss it ad naseam are no better and no more evolved than monkeys.
Personally, I'm never calling a pass that hits a receiver in the chest a "mistake". That's just not fair. It's not fair to the QB, and it's not fair to all the guys around the league who can make that play in their sleep. The ONLY time a slightly off-target pass (that hits his guy in the chest) is a mistake is if the pass location costs you a drive, conversion, etc. The TE allowing an INT is on the TE. If it's 3rd & 6 and the pass isn't led properly to create a first down, then that throw is ABSOLUTELY the QB's fault. If there's 2 seconds in the game and a slightly off-target throw leaves you a foot short of the goal line, then it's absolutely the QB's fault. On 1st & 10? No way. Antonio Gates catches that pass while simultaneously texting his woman he's catching the pass.
You keep saying if Henne waits. Why would he wait. He could have slid his feet and not disrupted the timing of the play at all. I'm actually glad that we're having this discussion because it really brings to light something I hadn't really noticed before which is that Henne continued at his own leisure while a linebacker blitzed right up the middle where nobody was to be found. Daniel Thomas has to come from directly behind Henne to directly in front of Henne, in order to pick up this blitzing #56. It was actually a pretty nifty block on Thomas' part and he deserves a lot of credit for it. That was something he'd done nicely during games in college and I was wondering if it would translate in the pros. So far so good. That was not at all an easy pickup. He started directly behind Henne and zigged to Henne's left, then saw the linebacker flashing and immediately zigged back to the right to get in front of Henne and give him the time he needed. The responsiveness was impressive. And he didn't really whiff. He started at a pretty severe disadvantage and his launch actually impacted the linebacker and bought the necessary time and space. It just bugs me that Henne...just stood there. Before Henne even plants his second step, that linebacker has uncovered from where Pouncey has gone with his DT, and is flashing right up the empty pipe. Thomas is still behind and to the side of him so you have this unblocked guy flashing at you about 4 yards away from you by the time your 2nd of your 3 steps even hits the ground. This is something I've learned to appreciate when I'm scouting quarterbacks in college, is guys that have that sixth sense and can sense those guys when they flash like that, without taking their eyes off the field. Ryan Mallett had it. Cam Newton had it. It was a little more inconsistent in Ponder and Gabbert. The elite pros have it. But Henne just doesn't show it here. He continues casually in his 3 step drop, sliding only very minimally to the left, bounces, and then releases. I personally don't think his arm was hit and I don't think the pressure affected his decision making on the throw or where it ended up. And I hate to say it but you've just added a second thing that Henne did on this play as part of his execution that I did not like at all. He didn't really react AT ALL, and that's as big a problem as overreacting would have been.
