Amount of money and draft value invested in O-line vs QB - Are you okay with it?

There is one big problem with this...

 

You have to get the right person at the right time. It doesn't matter if you draft 2nd round talent in the first round, it doens't make them a better player where they are drafted. We really haven't had that opportunity. Would you really have felt better about this season going into it with a rookie that just came into camp?? Would you have felt better about this season if we gave Kolb the amount of money Ariz. gave him when his stats were worse than Henne's when he played??

Everbody likes to talk about all the QB's that we missed in the draft, when the fact of the matter is this. How many QB's did we go through in the past years because the QB got hurt?? Quite a few that I can remember, why is that?? Because we had no offensive line. You put a rookie back there, say....Matt Ryan and you turn him into David Carr or Joey Harrington.

 

I am glad that this team hasn't "overpayed" for any QBs, but the lack of urgency in addressing the problem is a big concern to me.

 

No, you didn't include Pennington in your original post. And after you edited it, you still didn't include his extension.

I'm also not sure there is any correlation between spending on one unit and not the other. I don't see any evidence that spending on OL precluded any spending on QB. I also dont think anyone here wanted us to draft or sign a QB until after 2010.

 

But did anyone want that last offseason? So essentially you're saying they didn't do as much as they needed to this past offseason. Thats fair, and I somewhat agree with that. But what were their options? Its been pretty slim pickings this offseason.

 

Let's not kid ourselves....it's not about this year. They've passed on many, many players. Admittedly, some didn't work out.....but, they're not even trying to improve at the position.....and, it's been like that for years now.

 

If you saying the Dolphins yes I agree we have passed on a lot of players starting from the whole Culpepper over Brees thing and forward. If you are talking about this current regiem I dont think you can really make that arguement. What sucks for us as fans is that we have been through what 4 head coach's a couple GM's 2 owners and it seems like the QB issue just continues to try and be solved by some halfazz vet that never works out.

We have to get our next QB through the draft, hopefully we can get a 1st round talent. Sadly its going to be harder and harder because of the rookie wage scale. Teams are going to start taking chance's on QB's higher because if its a bust, then it doesn't cost as much. Thats just my opinion.

 

The offensive line defines the opportunities that both the running game and the passing game get. By the same token, you can't run them (except for the Fridge, the exception that proves the rule, or gadgets like the Fumblerooski) or pass to them (except for guard and tackle eligible plays, (which, thankfully, are few and far between). So you have to have skill players, too.

The problem is that the Fins have started building the team by building a great offensive line, but have been plagued by failures, so they're stuck in that low gear. Until they get a great OL, they're going to focus their resources on it. I'm OK with that. A great young OL is the foundation of a championship offense. Once that project is done, they start on the skill player projects. Dammit, they can't miss on every OLineman. Can they?

 

well I counted the number of qb since Dan retired and the number comes up to 28 if you include 1 st and 2nd team qb's and the number gos up to 32 if you count 3rd team guys but we also gave up on some potenialy good qbs but we never gave them a chance though.

we never gave John Beck a chance we just threw him into the toughest game that year against a tough defense. I am the only fin fan that will say this ,but Sage , Gus, Brian, Damon and Jay and even culpepper could have succeeded but our head coaches have all been too damn conservative and Dave never gave any other qb a chance when Feilder went down , hell he threw Feidler out their in a game when his shoulder was causing so much pain that Jay ended up tearing up his shoulder worse. so when you look at our past number of qb's there is something thatmakes me sick and that is every playoff team has had a pro bowl qb while we have had zilch . am I wrong for having this observation.

 

One year, they say no one worthwhile was available. The next year, they say they didn't like the guy who fell to them. The next year, they like a guy but fail to make a deal to go up and get him.

The problem is, years become decades, and here we are—about 20 years after Marino started to decline, and a progression of duds later, and we're still talking about "next year."

THAT'S what galls me about this.

They can say whatever excuse they want to give, year after year, but the bottom line is: if you haven't gotten yourself a franchise passer in two decades, YOU DIDN'T TRY HARD ENOUGH. You didn't want it bad enough, or you wanted other things more...YOU DIDN'T PRIORITIZE THE POSITION TO ITS INHERENT WORTH.

 

Our ambivalence to the most important single position in all of professional sports is absolutely insane to me. The fact we never try to get a guy with our first round pick is as perplexing as it is embarrassing.

 

They win this year, or they are gone. I heard today ticket sales are down by almost 30% this year. Ross can't afford these guys any longer and will replace them in a heartbeat if they don't at least have the team at 9 wins and showing promise at the end of the year. He has to because of business. Many people forget that the NFL is not just entertainment, but business too. If the Dolphins aren't making Mr. Ross money the way he expects, he will fix the problem. That I am sure will mean getting rid of Sparano at the least, and maybe Ireland as well.

Its business.

 

I guess you could say it's the chicken or the egg issue here. We had an offensive offensive line when Tony and co. arrived. They improved it. Then the OL digressed considerably last season. Injuries, too high expectations of certain players, etc all seemed to doom any chance of maintaining the improvement from the previous two years. I think, if the OL can regain that pop they've had and allow Thomas, Bush, et al to be productive, no one will care much.

Unfortunately, QB is a different horse. His deficiencies are tied into several other aspects of the team...the OL, the WRs, the TEs, the backs, the scheme the offense is running. So his deficiencies may look like all of the problem when in reality these other areas are just as much to blame for failure of the team.

That doesn't answer your post, it just points out that for every argument that is made for the lack of going after a QB, you can argue that they are justified in spending on the OL...

 

Well when a regime has 3-4 years and has not found a consistent starting Qb, that usually means its over for them. I don't really understand the argument that people are "glad we didn't overpay", what the hell is overpaying for a starting quality Qb? A 2nd round pick? 20 million guaranteed money? Thats the middle of the road for a starting caliber Qb.

There are like 20-25 guys on the planet that are good starting caliber Qbs, what do you expect to pay to get one? When the Qb situation has been as bad as ours has been for as long as ours has been its time to be aggressive. The mentality that we can just wait till the next draft is ridiculous. Look at the 2 times we've picked in the top 3, there wasn't a Qb worth taking at the time (well Ryan was but thats an argument for another day). The point is when you have a guy you want and think he can play in your system you move up to get him or you trade for him and give him the money. We have basically just drafted Henne and hoped he would work out. Even if Henne had played well we still would have been smart to draft more talent to shore up the position. Some teams basically draft Qbs every year or two, we should do that as well, it only makes sense.

We've been hoping, bargain shopping and gun shy to make a big move. Hopefully Henne can play because if he can't I think the front office and coaching staff are gone.

 

Now hold up a minute here Bpk, apples to apples, what have the Patriots and Jets invested in their Olines?

 

What's easier to find a good QB or a good offensive line? At this point I'd say the benefit of a great QB is greater than the offensive line and it's likely cheaper too.

1- QB
2- HC

Are the two positions where you have to have excellent results otherwise you're making your job that much more difficult.

 

Add to the offensive line list with

Sir Vincent Rogers
Al Johnson
Dan Gore
Julias Wilson
Andy Alleman
Mark Lewis
Ickechuku Ndukwe
Andrew Hartline
Trey Dariek
Jermey Parnell
Joe Reitz
Ray Feinga
Dan Heerspink
Matt Kopa
Allen Barbre
Lyndon Murtha
Pat Mcquistan
Mike Byrne
Andrew Gardner
Nate Garner
Garrett Chisolm

 

One has the Jest situation a bit muddled Bro, they had Penny, and traded for Favre, then cut Penny, and released Favre after the 08 season.

Meanwhile Mangini from 06-08 loaded them up with quality drafts (save for Gholston) whom Rex Ryan has been riding ever since.

In 09 when they traded for Sanchez, the robbed Mangini for cheap to move up to #6 to take him, Mangini thought moving back and away from large bonuses was the wise thing to do, so much so he moved out of the #16 (Josh Freeman) for a 6th rd pick! But at that time we had Penny and Henne and looked set at Qb.

What one does find if you dig a bit, both could have happened, build the Oline and Add the Qb, they just choose to say "no", and it is not really a question of resources they just won't make the move dating back to the yr 2000 when we drafted few Olinemen in that era.

 

I want Miami to have a great QB as much as anyone. I truly miss watching Marino sling the ball every Sunday. But the reality is there has not been quality QBs to take a chance on. An argument can be made for Ryan, but take a look at how poor our OL was. Drafting a QB with the 1st pick in the draft and having a terrible OL and supporting cast killed the careers of guys like Carr, Couch...and then there were duds like Russell and Smith. Furthermore, Ryan is probably the most overrated player in football. He dumps it off more than Henne. Ryan can't throw the deep ball worth a ****...take a look at the playoff loss to Green Bay when Ryan tries to throw the deep ball.

Besides that the young guns considered to be potential franchise QBs were long gone in the draft by the time Miami was on the clock...Stafford, Sanchez, Freeman, Bradford, Newton, Locker, Gabbert, Ponder all gone. Who did Miami pass over? No one. It is easy for fans to say the regime has not gone after QBs, but I don't seen anyone generating a list of QBs that were overlooked.

Having said that I think getting Orton for a 3rd would have been a really wise move. But that is the only QB related move I think this regime came up short on.

 

Add Josh McCown to QBs signed as free agents. We signed him in 2008, but we traded him after we signed Penny. Turned out to be a good investment since we got a draft pick for him.

 

It's off topic, but IMO teams that draft well should have a greater advantage over the past b/c of more $ available for key FA acquisitions.
That helps us IMO.

 

I agree teams that want to get a Qb get a Qb. We could have traded up fairly easily in the draft and we could have made countless moves over the last 10 years that we didn't. We've always been gunshy and bargain shopping and thats been one of the major problems. The mentality that we can build an oline and running game and just insert a mediocre Qb and win games is another issue. We talk all the time about gettting explosive on offense, getting speed, etc but we just load up on linemen, power running backs, possession wideouts and forget about upgrading at the Qb position.

 

I think the Dolphins need to stop shopping at Ross and Marshall's and just step up and go into Nieman Marcus. The QB position is not fungible like RB, MLB, etc. That's why elite QBs never hit the open market in their prime (save Drew Brees who had a weird confluence of circumstances). I'm also sick of saying the Fins haven't had the chance to get a top-flight QB in the draft. You do what you can to get a star. The Bucs drafted Freeman with the 17th pick. Was it impossible or unthinkable to move up from the 25th to the 17th spot for a kid that looks like a future star and Ben Roethlisberger but without the rapetastic predilection? I'm hoping and praying that because of the new CBA that will keep rookie contracts under control that we'll take a chance on a QB because even if we strike out, it won't cripple the franchise for 4-5 years.

I'm just really tired of this excuse that we never have a chance at a good QB in the draft. You can't complain about not getting a chance when you never put your hat into the ring.

 

I can't criticize this regime for not going after the QB b/c I agreed with many of their choices to pass on the QBs that were potentially available. I just didn't feel they were the worth the investment. Now I can and have criticized past regimes for not prioritizing the QB position. It seems silly and frankly just irrational to blame them for 20 years when they weren't even around.

 

Listen, building an offense is like building a house. You don't first put in plumbing or electrial or the walls or the roof without first building the foundation. In building an offense, the first thing that MUST be built is that offensive line. Not every running back in the league is a Barry Sanders, nor every quarterback a Michael Vick. Without that base, it doesn't matter who you have in the backfield, they're going to get destroyed. Teams with talented offensive lines, even with medicore talent in the backfield have won and some winning championships.

Redskins
Cowboys
Raiders
Ravens
Panthers
Chiefs
Chargers

Teams that have/had SOLID offensive lines and some of them with medicore talent in the back field yet, were/are successful

The offensive line is your most fundamental base. Miami has a good solid base. Miami should see tangible success running the ball and with the ability to protect the quarterback, Chad Henne won't be as rushed to throw the ball as he was last year.

Now, provided the OL holds up this year and is not plagued by injury, provided that Henne isn't scrambling like a chicken with his head cut off, he should see much imporved success than he had last year. If he doesn't and the OL proved reliable, then it's time to grab our QB of the future in next year's draft and find a good veteran quarterback to play backup and be his mentor.

It used to be once upon a time before free agency, you could build a good solid team that was perinneal playoff contenders within a few years. With free agency, it's hit and miss. When you get a hit by signing a big name free agent, you inevitably lose one to free agency.

THIS season right here is going to tell whether or not the Dolphins are indeed on the right track.

 

As a counterpoint, there are plenty of teams with middle of the road offensive lines that have excellent QBs that have achieved great amounts of success. Pittsburgh, Green Bay, and New Orleans come to mind immediately. Obviously, if the choice is between a good offensive line and a not good offensive line, I'll take the good offensive line, but if I had the choice between a star QB and a mid-pack OL or a great OL and a mid-pack QB, I'll take the former over the latter any day of the week and twice on Sunday. What did our awesome offensive line achieve for us in 2009? A 7-9 record? Whooopeedoo.

I've grown really tired of watching the same brand of mediocre football for the past 15 years.