I did a little research on some of the best jobs that new regimes taking over a franchise did, and what their record was after the 3rd year..3 coaches who won the superbowl in the 4th year had these records.. Cowboys after 3 seasons..19 wins and 24 losses. Giants after 3 seasons..25 wins and 23 losses.. Saints after 3 seasons..25 wins and 23 losses.. Miami Dolphins after 3 season..25 wins and 23 losses.. hmmmm...so let me get this strait..this regime has won as many, or more games since their inception {3 seasons} than any other regime has { in 3 seasons} in the modern era when having the #1 overall pick.?..I use that barometer because it indicates how bad the team was when they took over.. How is this not put into perspective?..I know we lost games at home, but does this GM and staff truly deserve such harsh criticism relative to history, and where is the patience for such natural ebb and flows when building a team, everyone is gonna make some mistakes on personnel when you have that starting point, should folks have such an attitude, when in fact this staff is in unprecedented territory for building a team?.. 25 wins in the national football league is 25 wins..spin it how you want, but after three season's, there's enough data where everyone kind of averages out.. Maybe its time to show a little respect and support, and look at things with a bigger picture in mind.. Is there any other example out there that maybe relevant in this topic..? new regime...#1 overall pick..record after three seasons.?
Funny thing is Deej, the same stuff that was said about Eli Manning is said of Chad Henne. What the critics typically do is say "except for 2008" as if it somehow is not on the Sparano's resume. For me, I'm pretty happy with the things Sparano and Ireland have done, people also tend to forget how depleted the roster was when they took the reins, we are down to what...5 guys from the 07 roster who are starters? YB, Carey, Denny, Crowder, Soliai, Fields? If fans want a frightening walk down memory lane, examine the 04-07 period in Franchise history. 4-12/9-7/6-10/1-15 All the while the team grew steadily older, and we went through 4 Head Coaches and 3 GM's?
Doesn't make sense to me. One total is 48 games, the other totals are 43 games. What years were these records taken from?
Brandy Marshall Jake Long Cam Wake Paul Soliai Karlos Dansby Vontae Davis Sean Smith Kendall Langford Randy Starks Davone Bess All in their prime, or yet to hit their prime. All under contact. That's the core of a VERY good team. For perspective look around at the other 31 teams and see how many of them have a Top 10 like that. Odrick, Merling, Henne, Clemons, Incognito, Pouncey, Fields, Carpenter, Carrol, Reshad Jones, John Jerry, Misi, that's another dozen young players to go forward with. If even half of them improve over the next couple years, Henne especially, look out. The only past their prime contributors on the team are Carey and Bell, plus W Allen if he wins the nickel spot. Of course talent acquisition doesn't necessarily translate into wins, and young players don't always get better, but IMO the outlook for this team is considerably better than most people seem to think.
Ugh; stats again. The same result: lies to bolster one argument or another. You want to recount how franchises stay mediocre after changes, all you're saying is that you're perfectly happy to just plod along in 7-9/9-7 land, and keep defending the indefensible. You're citing the examples of what the team has become as acceptable; that's shooting pretty low as aspirations go. What about the Patriots, who went from abject losers to Super Bowl champs in two offseasons? What about shooting for that goal, instead of dredging up mediocrities to reassure yourself? Me? I don't really give a **** what anyone else believes; you want to look at Bill Parcells' feces and see cotton candy, be my guest. I'll just keep calling it "Sparano." That's the problem with true believers, whether in religion or football: they're not happy just being "saved" or, in football, "supporters"; no, they have to get YOU to believe as they do, or you're "lost" or the message board equivalent of a blasphemer: "hater." Whatever. We'll see after the season starts and the big question heading into the bye is whether Sparano will be fired in those two weeks or after the season. After the second New England game would be my guess.
Absolutely Henne's development is more important than that of any other player, but I agree more w/ the term "catalyst" than "all hinges". I thought Henne was considerably better in 2010 than he was in 09, all factors included. But I also think that the maturation of the defense and the return of the running game will be deciding factors, I don't see Henne making or breaking our fortunes. He's not good enough to carry the team, but he's not bad enough to ruin the team either, IMO.
Henne weather? Now you want him to be Zeus? Good lord you guys really have too high standards since Marino.
Its a good comparison, now we just need Henne to become as good as Aikman, Manning and Brees are/were. I think Henne can take that step but its a big jump over what hes accomplished so far. Im rooting for him though in a big way...I want the team to win and I want the haters to eat their words.
I agree, if no real Qb is brought into Miami Henne will face extraordinary scrutiny and rightfully so, and I'm not in love with Sparano pinning a season on him, along with his job in Miami. BTW Deej, the Cowboys had back to back #1 overall picks, they traded their 1989/90 pick to draft Steve Walsh in the supplemental draft. They were really bad, Tom Landry more or less left the cupboard bare for JJ (Irvin had knee problems, Ken Norton as well, not unlike what the situation was in Miami when Irish/Tuna/Sparano arrived, the cowboys record for those two yrs, 4-28..
And how many Pro Bowlers did Dallas acquire with the Herschel Walker trade? A legitimate challenge to Henne needs to be brought in. I know you like Thiggy, but IMHO, he isn't disciplined enough to take any team forward. He looked great closing out the Titans already having a lead, but sucked against the Bears. Bad enough, in fact, the management thought an injured Henne was a better option going forward. There are some intriguing prospects that are probably chaffing at the bit at a chance to compete against Henne for the starting job. I like Seneca Wallace and Vince Young but could easily adapt to Palmer or Orton if Ross signs off on trading a draft pick.
Who knows? Just glancing at the drafts of that era: Really only Woodsen and Smith came out of that trade, they picked up good role guys like Harper and Edwards. Now it could be said the real key to the Cowboys success was JJ's connections to the University of Miami as several players he recruited he picked up. They also had 3 #1 overall picks in that era. Thiggy is outta here I suspect, he wants to start, wants that starter money and I doubt we offer him anything close to that sort of deal. Wallace re-upped with the Browns.
so the argument and the criticism is because the fact that we went a little in reverse there should be a different set of expectations? for example..I think in the first year coming off that 1 and 15 season, we all expected to be what, 4 and 12? then the next year maybe 7 and 9 would of been acceptable?, than the next year 10 and 6? would of been cool?..would that of been an acceptable plane of progression considering the starting point ?.. well if you say yes, than that record is 4 wins less than what they have accomplished.. To think we would start out 11 and 5 in the first and sustain such proficiency without having the natural DEgression the situation would predictably dictate, would be ludicrous imo D22..There has to be a lull in wins as you do the rebuilding..The team has to be complete before you can have legitimate expectations to compete for playoffs..Please tell me how you want more than what they have given us in three years? 1 division championship and 25 wins DURING the damn rebuild, is once again, unprecedented territory in this leagues history.. The 4th year is when they should be legitimately judged upon, and now, going into that 4th year, you have the 3rd youngest football team, that has experience playing together, who have already showed they can compete with anyone WHILE the madness of a rebuild is going on..Somebody has to know WTF is going on to get as many wins as any other regime has in this leagues history who found themselves in a similar situation..
If it's one thing we all know about Sparano is that he does not give a rat's *** about what the fans think...In fact, he seems to thrive in the face of adversity like a cornered cockroach in a deli; indeed, almost seemingly preferring it. In short, he's a motivator, not an inspirer. He needs dissent for fuel. So if anything, the dissent will only further his success IMO. I mean, he's the kinda guy who's most uneasy when everything is going his way. However, he has shown the subtle ability to listen and adapt despite his gruff, machismo, tough guy routine. The guy can take the criticism and make lemonade. His greatest challenge will be to instill and actually have confidence in Chad Henne. So with the greatest sense of Dolphin patriotism I can muster; I say screw you Sparano, you micromanaging, stat- monkeying, degenerative testicular disease having, line shuffling, nepotistic, uninspiring, Wannstedtian hot dog vending, wannabe walrus moustachio'd Tuna helper of a coach!!!
I don't know if it's the same as other fanbases, but Dolphin fans love heights. Either they're jumping of cliffs, or they're putting themselves on the cross. Let's relax for a bit. Part of the reason we over-scrutinize these guys is because we're emotionally invested in this. ***-backward Jet fan co-worker. Suspected predator Patriot fan Uncle. Sad, virginal Star Trek fan Bills cousin. You have to put up with these guys often and you have so much other emotional things invested in.
Alright, Iam gonna take this heavyweight on..''I like this kinda party''.. Wins are not stats..There wins, and there undeniable in showcasing preparation, discipline, and execution at the NFL level, in other words, if you ain't prepared, disciplined, and you Don't execute, your not coming anywhere close to 25 wins. There has to be some sort of talent in the aquisition dept, and the coaching depts to accomplish such a feat, a feat that we can clearly state has not been topped by anyone else. This regime gave you a division championship in its first year, did you expect them to compete for playoff spots in the following years? where is there room in your analysis for the trials and tribulations that all rebuilds have?..Were going into our 4th year with 25 wins under our belt, and quite possibly could have thee youngest team in the NFL...Thats the best anyone could ask for..History should level your expectations..
I think when it comes to having expectations of a new regime, you have to have some sort of comparison, and I swear Matt, I cant think of a better one than a new regime with a #1 overall pick?..I mean, what else ,and who else, should we be comparing them to?. Damn it this pisses me off..who the hell do we think we are?.I understand we need to always have high expectations and not except mediocrity, but I can't understand the majority's criticism in this case relative to what they have actually accomplished, and what other's before them have as well.. NOBODY...HAS... DONE... BETTER...
Wins are stats. Use them as a basis for an argument and they're stats redoubled. DJ, you talk about overall wins as if this meant something in a league in which the loser of the Super Bowl is considered a failure. In another post you hit closer to the truth; you said (from memory) 4-12, 7-9 and 10-6. Would that have been acceptable? Depends on context. On the surface, it would have been almost exactly what we expected. If those numbers meant a steady acquisition of talent to restock the shelves from the dearth left by Wannstedt/Saban/Cameron, and the logical learning curve of a new coaching staff along with that, then yes—it would be acceptable. But instead we got an anomalous 11-5 followed by the torturous mediocrity of 7-9, and 7-9 again. I don't care what measure you use, that is not acceptable. A bump in the road in year two? Acceptable. continued mediocrity signaling regression? NOT acceptable. I don't care about stats unless they are accompanied by a Lombardi trophy. 4-12, 7-9 and 10-6 would—on the surface—signal logical progression toward that ultimate goal. 11-5, 7-9 and 7-9—in context, taking into account the colossal personnel failures and the colossal failure in coaching and particularly in the OC position (for which the HC is ultimately responsible)—signals trouble. But more than just that; it signals the waste of yet another year trying to fit Sparano's thick meat head into a job for which he's clearly ill-suited. And that, my friend, is NOT the way to a bright future. It is the way to...being the Cleveland ****ing Browns.
Belichick has. Ryan has. And it's been done before. Just because this is the **** Popsicle we've been handed by the ice-cream man with the crotchless clown suit doesn't mean we have to eat it.
Some people don't like the plan that Ireland & company have put in place, some do. But I'm under the impression that a lot of the people thumbing their nose don't understand the blue print at all. How many times does Sparano have to say "we are a running team" before people stop banking the season on Chad Henne & the mystical veteran who's going to swoop in and "challenge" him? This team was built from the ground up to first and foremost be STRONG IN THE TRENCHES. Big, physical, hard nosed running game, stout defense, win the turnover battle, and live w/ the results. We're not the Colts, Eagles, Chargers, etc looking to score 25 points and rely on our defense to hold a lead. We're built to hold the score down, out work, out hit and and out last our opponents. The QB is a facilitator on this team. We don't want him throwing for 4000 yds or 30 TDs, we want him handing off, running play action, taking what's available and avoiding mistakes. Let the ground game and defense do the heavy lifting. See Jets, NY. Some people like, it some people don't. Some people think its boring, outdated, etc. But that's what we're trying to do w/ this regime and any knowledgeable critique of the team should have that in mind. In year 4, its disappointing that we're still struggling to solidify the OL and get the ground game going. We don't have a single back who's carried more than a handful times in any professional football game. I suspect we'll be addressing that w/ a different #34 once FA starts. Defensively, I think we're on the verge of having one of the stop stop units in the league. Nobody's going to run on us, our front 7, yeah I'll say it, is a top 3 unit. Davis and Smith are pretty damn good and still learning to play the game. With Cromartie, Joseph and Asomuga leaving their teams, who has a outside of GB has a better 1-2? Wake is a monster, so is Dansby. Soliai was beating the snot outta people all year long. Hell, we've got 2 1st rounders coming off the bench at DE. Clemons surprised me big time. It's hard to argue w/ what Ireland and co. have done on that side of the ball. Henne is target number one around here, but given what the regime wants from the QB position, he's not far away. Defensively we're on point. What's missing is the run game, the takeaways, and ST. How's Vince Young in the return game? Can Orton cover kickoffs?
1-7 at home and seeing our playoff runs smashed at the hands of dreadful Bills teams for two straight yrs has a tendency to cause people to lose objectivity KM. For myself, "if" Sparano marries Chad Henne, and stakes his future in Miami on him, then he will have made an unwise choice and continued to stick with an unwise choice, inow, he will have earned his dismissal for doing so, if Henne pans out and we have a solid yr, 10-6/9-7, make the playoffs maybe, maybe not, and Henne finally shines, then Sparano will have earned his button. Love this regime KM, their problem is they do not see the pratfalls coming, great at preperation, poor at dealing with problems on the fly. The offense will be fixed, of that I am certain, but what is the next issue to come up? Carpenter slumps?
I am afraid that this misses the point entirely. For starters, Parcells teams have always brought in vets in year one of the "rebuild" to re-establish the identity of the organization. This is a fact. He brought in a bunch of old Giants players in New England. He brought in a few of his old Pats players to the Jets. He brought a couple of Jets players to Miami along with other "high character types". There's a perfectly logical reason for everything if you look hard enough to find it. Facts are facts and the fact here is that we went from 1 win to 11 wins in that one season because the new regime brought players who believed in organization and discipline and a regime that knew how to instill it. They then spent the next two years drafting young players to learn under those veterans and thats how we landed where we are today with a young core on the verge of being a really good team if our QB can grab the reigns and our head coach and front office step up their games to another level. A Lombardi Trophy is the goal and on that you are correct but there is a process to everything and that process doesn't happen overnight when you are an overtime TD away from being winless the season prior to the new regime taking over.
Funny, didn't this same Sparano go out of his way to tell the fans Chad Henne was the man? And then a week or two later bench him? BTW I'll believe Sparano is the answer then he can put a base offense out there that can beat the other team. You can talk all you want about being a run first coach, but you need to be able to do it and win. 3 years they have been unable to do it, put up or shut up time.
Based on DJ's criteria they were not in the same situation when they began. Miami was, record wise, the worst team in the league. DJ is comparing this regime's record since against other regimes who also took over teams who were, record wise, the worst team in the league. I haven't checked his results but I can't, off the top of my head, recall any other recent teams that had the #1 overall pick who clearly won more games. DJ is looking at the level of improvement while you are just looking at teams who were already ahead of us. Obviously you want to eventually reach the goal but it does seem unreasonable to say to a coach who took over the worst team and has performed better than anyone else has in a similar situation that he has done a bad job. It's like two people who are taking the job of rebuilding two houses. One was leveled by a hurricane and the other one while the other needed less extensive repairs. It's not fair to decide that the builder dealing with the less extensive repairs is better simply b/c he's ahead a few days into the project.
Noblocane is right in some regards had we hired a real offensive coordinaor and stop the ridiculus wildcat then we would have won two more games and might have beaten the Rayvens in the playoffs the rule of thumb is who did we miss out on in the draft to take players that most people would not have taken in the 6 th round let alone taking a gu in rds 1 - 4 bottom line our drafting on both sides of the ball flat out sucks but we are getting better on defense but man we were horific on offense when we had the abliity to score . last year was a terible year but mainly because the idiot of a offensice coordinator.
This team has been embarrassed, offensively, defensively and on special teams during his tenure as HC, I think the worst of it coming last year. At what point is it simply the HC's fault that is team is unprepared?
Don't forget Carolina, after 1-15: 7-9 11-5 - SB berth 7-9 Not that it really means anything anyway. EDIT: I thought we were talking about teams after going 1-15. Maybe that was being discussed in another thread, I see where ya'll are going. Ok move along nothing to see here.
That's what I'am sayin Nabo, so when you don't start your rebuttal in this context, its truly not fair..The majority of this fanbase has completely turned on this regime, treats them like garbage, gives them and the players they have aquired absolutely no support, while that regime and those players, have won more games than any other regime that started in a similar situation after 3 seasons.. They simply don't deserve the hate, if anything imo, as history shows, they deserve the opposite. Where is your basis for hate?..you know damn well they had a cancer on the coaching staff that they could really do nothing about until the end of the season.. I know you have mentioned that you think because Sparano did not fire Henning mid season he must not have the right makeup? well, the man still led his team to 25 wins with a coordinator that truly didn't care anymore, and a coordinator that he did not hire himself..When does that happen in this league, head coach not hiring their coordinator? What I'am sayin here, our fanbase needs to rethink what it is there hating before the 4th year begins?...The hate is only hurting your players on your football team, and you know what, they don't deserve it.
See how ridiculous this sounds, when obviously in your opinion the head coach is a joke, but yet leads his team to a division title and 25 wins while he's being a joke...some joke..no other coach has done better when inheriting the #1 overall pick.
I don't think that is entirely accurate Deej, I suspect about 1 in 6 Dolfans really are not happy with Sparano, 3 in 6 are taking a wait and see approach and the 2 in 6 think they are doing good job handling the team. Much of it comes from the Qb position being unsettled and passing on Matt Ryan in 08, and no amount of stat monkery will replace our 7-9 with the Falcons 13-3, if we have followed the norm, the Falcons have exceeded all reasonable expectations for improvement.
Eh, I look around as well Deej, what strikes me is when this regime is not liked it REALLY is not liked, same names saying the same thing over and over again and it really does not have a whole lot of traction, or so I've noticed. Have to laugh at the moronicy of "suck for luck" stupid is as stupid does. Let me suggest, post a pole, offer both sides of the line of thinking, and see what happens. I can understand why there is some derangement among the Anti people, 1-7 at home is just terrible, along with some odd decisions by Sparano on game days, however as you point out on the main they have been in line with prior successful turnaround efforts of Franchises.
Just as with rebuilding or repairing a house, we know that there is a time frame for rebuilding or repairing an NFL team. Let's say that building a house from scratch takes one year. If a builder takes two years to do the job, we know he took too long. We can estimate how long things are supposed to take to accomplish by knowing how long it has taken in the past to accomplish the same thing; if a house takes one year to build but a builder takes two years, we know he took too long. If he takes three years, we know he failed miserably. But if he takes three years and still isn't finished, and has had to go back several times and tear down work he's already done because he did it poorly to begin with, then I do think that, certainly, at least, that builder deserves both criticism and scorn. Belichick took the Patriots from 5-11 in 2000 to Super Bowl champions in 2001—two offseasons—so we know it can be done. Then there are the multitude of cases in which the administration of a team takes over and not only fails to make the team better but actually makes it worse. As a fan, why should I make excuses for my team and accept that in three offseasons of opportunity they have actually regressed instead of improving; that they squandered time and money with horrible draft picks and even worse free agent acquisitions; that they hired the wrong Head Coach, and instead of firing him after consecutive 7-9 seasons and the dismal failure and open revolt of last season, gave him a contract extension. More importantly, why do my fellow fans need so much for me to swallow the kool-aid along with them? Why does it matter so much to them that I have criticisms—perfectly legitimate criticisms—of the current administration of the team I have followed, loved and supported since 1970?
To be fair, that team was being built before Belichick arrived. Guys like Willie McGinest, Ty Law, Ted Johnson, Lawyer Milloy, Damien Woody, Kevin Faulk, Tedy Bruschi, etc. were all inherited by Belichick. Currently, the only guys I can think of this regime inheriting are Brown, Williams, and Soliai. Of those three, I'd say Soliai is the only one who could be considered a difference maker.
where is your patience and understanding for variables and inherited circumstances when building a frachise from scratch...Its not like they have sh%4 the bed in these past 3 years, they have won as many and or more games as anyone else before them Nabo..You've got to respect the starting point to accurately judge the process.. They have shown themselves pretty damn well while the rebuilding process has been going on, i say that because I feel like I understand the ups and downs of a true rebuild, if we nail this free agency, am tellin you my brother, Iam gonna haunt you in your sleep....NAAAAAAAABOOOOO...COME OUT AND PLAAAAAAAAYEEEE... lol..
Belichick has a TON of luck too.. I was at Tom Brady's first game as a starter against Miami at JRS and nearly all the Pats fans were calling for his head.. The Patriots were off to another rough start and were looking at a second straight season of failure.. Bill B was about to become a footnote.. And then Tom Brady came to the rescue.
