VD21 vrs SS24...Who you got?

I also remember that dropped interception by Vontae Nmandi Aso(if he stays in the AFC) Brandon Flowers, Devin McCourty and even Sean Smith(if he learns to catch) will have a better chance to make the pro bowl than Vontae. Let's take a look his numbers last year(PFF):Times targeted: 72 timesCompletions allowed: 45Yards allowed: 625Yards after the catch: 241Percentage of passes caught: 64.2 %Average yards per completion: 11.8TD's allowed: 3Missed tackles: 12Pass defended: 7 QB passer rating against: 95.8 Penalties: 1

 

Remember that one handed pick he made a rookie? We thought at that point that hands were the least of SS24's worries.

 

Man I remember that.. he was so close to pulling it in. If he catches that it's on par with the pick Cromartie had when he was a Charger.

 

My vote goes to VD21. He is more physical, athletic and has better hands and innate coverage instincts. As was said, Davis always drew the toughest matchup week after week.

 

Better to be a mother grabber than an ankle grabber.

 

Sounds crazy..it just might work!!



I'm a Nolan Carrol fan Deej, and would like to see more plays on the ball out of the Safeties, not that Clemons is bad mind you, but Davis could be a Ronnie Lott/Troy P type of Safety, that is my thinking, well that and with all of the failures to convert chances to int's, do they really bring back the Secondary completely intact?

 

Think Zach Thomas is still eying that safety spot?

 

That's not true at all. The Dolphins more frequently had cornerbacks play sides of the field, and would bump coverage if motion moved a player away from a corner rather than simply have a corner follower the receiver in question, especially towards the end of the season after Smith got back to playing cornerback more frequently. If a receiver played against one cornerback more than the other that dramatically, it was because he lined up on that side of the field more than anything.

This is pretty easy to prove on PFF, too. A teams top receiver has targets or catches vs. multiple cornerbacks. Calvin Johnson had 4 targets vs. Sean Smith, 1 vs. Benny Sapp, and 1 vs. Vontae Davis. That's about as stark an example, but it's like that for virtually every game from Jason Allen being bumped on.

 

You're right, we rarely swapped CBs, that's not what I was implying. When I say toughest assignments I don't mean VD followed the #1 around all game. I mean he played LCB, which in most cases is where teams put their best CB. The LCB has the TE to worry about, is run at more often, and typically has safety help less frequently.

I'd like to hear why you think Sean Smith is w/o a doubt better than Davis when the coaching staff seems to think otherwise. Perhaps you're seeing something that I'm not.

 

A tight end lining up on that side is not a significant factor of difficulty for a corner back. Not from a coverage standpoint, and not from a standpoint of a defense whose base package has a 2-gap end and an OLB on either side of the tight end in question. If a tight end has a chance to get multiple blocks on a cornerback, there is something going wrong.

If the Dolphins thought one of their cornerbacks was better than the other, they would keep that corner back on an opposing quality wide receiver. They play enough man coverage that this would not be particularly difficult, and it's frequently what is done in those kind of situations. Not to mention, you know, they've done it in the past, with those same players...most notably Moss and Davis in 2009. Yet they're not doing it now.

 

Overall, I pick Vontae, and here's why:

Firstly, just from a pure athleticism standpoint, Vontae takes that hands down. Vontae also came in the league covering the game's best. A difficult thing to do for ANY CB, especially a rook. Are we talking about the same Sean Smith who lost his job to Jason Allen? Allen, I actually really liked, if he just wasn't so slow upstairs, he actually could be a solid starter.

Smith did well last year because of scheme. He was mostly put on TEs which he did very well doing. The problem I have with Smith is that he does not have that make up speed. If he is beat, he is beat completely. ALL corners get beat, that's why receivers get paid so much. If Vontae is beat by a move, he has that ability to make up some ground and get his hands on the ball. This has happened several times.

Now, about last year. We can all speculate, but maybe Nolan's defense took a little for them to get used to. Things did change because guys were in position to make INTs more often than not last year than in year's past.

In saying that, Davis had better overall stats than Asomugha (who has only had one season with more than 1 INT, and half of his 8-year career, registered 0 INTs), Revis, and Sean Smith last year. He had 2 FF last year, which is good for a CB (considering Asomugha and Revis have 2 each for their careers). And yes, it was his 2nd year, so he was still "picked on". His lone INT last year was an amazing effort while he was solo on Percy Harvin. The stats are merely for the stat guys, Revis and Asomugha are 1 and 2 in any argument. Asomugha is getting older, so my vote probably goes to Revis, though Asomugha I'd much rather have on my team if I had to choose.

Regardless, let's just throw out the stats. Davis has better burst to the ball, and better hand-to-eye coordination given his past INTs. Smith is good, but soft, and has not shown me much of an ability to make an open-field tackle (I remember one excellent one last year and I think it was against the Jets or Buffalo late in the year). Smith is lengthier, but really hasn't used that to his ability yet. Maybe he will?

Both of these guys are young and have plenty to work on. Davis, though, is much more polished and has the potential to be an elite corner. I truly believe that. I just do not get that feeling from Smith. I hope he does, because it helps the team, but I am just not feeling it.

My vote goes for Davis.

 

Sean Smith.

 

Sean Smith. I thought it was pretty evident myself as the "lay" fan.
Vontae makes big tackles and he's physical. He'd good too. He just wasn't playing nearly at the level Sean Smith was.
BTW, I think Sean Smith is much more "athletic" than Vontae Davis. The guys runs as fast and has 5 inches on Vontae. Plus, the guy leaps. I mean he's a physical specimen to say the least.

 

Man coverage = Smith

Zone coverage = Davis

 

IMO Sean Smith. I think much of the Davis love comes from his big hits and his personality, but that Smith plays more consistently. Even in run support where Davis is much more sudden and spectacular, he is a less reliable tackler. I think that Smith is more of a technician in coverage and that as he stops having to think so much his natural instincts show through. I think Davis relies more on instinct and quickness/athleticism and that his instincts are okay but not great while his athleticism is great. The result is many dynamic plays and many blown assignments. One particular example is Davis' tendency to jump that first move. When he's right, it's a dramatic defensive play that fans are awed by, but when it's a double move then Davis ends up trailing and it looks like it's the S's fault. I also think that will happen with WRs who are more athletic rather than technical. Davis can play with most any WR on an athletic basis, but has a tendency to be beaten by the technician. And remember that Davis has been a CB through 4 years of HS and 4 years of college. He has like 6 years more experience at the position over Smith. I think Smith has more natural instincts and that in a year or so Smith will be a perennial pro bowler. I think Davis has better change of direction skills in coverage, but less ball skills. Fans who only remember last season think that Smith has bad hands, but that's simply not his history. He has generally been an INT machine. I expect that when he stops thinking that that will be the case again. Now Davis has shown an increase in maturity since he got to the pros. While he still falls for the double move, I think he does so less often. That was growth he did not show while in college.

 

To be honest, I think Smith isn't as quick, but is faster than Davis.

 

Both. I think Smith is better now, and has more upside. His biggest problem is zone coverage, but as he gets more experience, he'll get better at it. Davis just doesn't have the speed to be as good as Smith in man coverage. But that doesn't mean he cant be a damn good CB.

 

Sorry, DJ. I agree with rafael, I think it's more about perception with Vontae. You see the big hits, he's a 1st round pick, Brett Favre had something nice to say about him in comparison to Jason Allen, who's terrible. Sean Smith drops a lot of INT's, he was benched early on the year. So, the perception is that he isn't as good.

You claim to the highest bidder about how Chad Henne's benching wasn't a cause of poor play (don't want to turn this into a Henne debate), so you might want to use some of that same logic when viewing Sean Smith. The truth is the guy, was all over the place and he really did a heckuva job last year.

 

I am surprised as well. When I was defending Smith last off-season, I felt I was on my own.

Personally, I would take Smith. I think he is more likely to be the better player over the next few years and over the long haul. I also think that Smith's size is more unique and offers a versatility against receiving TEs that may to be the next trend that's adopted on a league wide basis.

 

Dj hasn't badmouthed SS. He's said good things about him and even in his re-watches, he only said that SS needed to bring the ball down.

 

Jennings is not slow at all, Vontae had no angle on that play, and where the Bell was Yeremiah? I watched VD chase down Courtney Roby (4.4) to save a TD vs Nawlinsin 09, and just from watching the two I'll have to disagree that Smith is the faster guy. Both guys have strengths and weaknesses and IMO their production/performance will depend on how they are used within the defense.

Sean Smith is a 6'3 guy, he can run well (not great) and has has surprising quickness and agility for a guy his size. His weaknesses are his backpedal & transition (slow) and his tackling/run support. IMO he's best used as a press corner. Put him on the LOS, inside leverage to take away the slant/curl/smoke routes, and have him play a trail technique w/ a safety over the top. Sean is not a burner, and he's not a good jammer either, so he's susceptible to the 9 route, thus the safety help. He's not quick out of his back pedal or as a tackler so you don't want teams attacking him w/ short stuff that they can exploit for long gains b/c of missed tackles, thus the press coverage. But at 6'3, with his wingspan, ball skills and leaping ability, Sean can be an intimidating cover corner from a trail position. Trying to fit a ball to a 5'11"-6'1" guy who has a 6'3" guy in his hip pocket is incredibly difficult, especially if there is a safety waiting to break up any pass that has a high trajectory. So long as Sean is in the neighborhood of his WR he's going to be a very difficult to target successfully. In 2011 I'm watching to see if teams have learned to shy away from Smith, and if they haven't, will he finally start to capitalize on his splash play opportunities?

Vontae is almost a mirror opposite of Smith IMO. I think he's better served as an off corner, outside leverage, where he can read and react to the drop of the QB and the route of his receiver. VD has a better backpedal & transition to drive on routes, and good recovery speed if he's fooled on a deeper route. He's also a better tackler, who can be relied upon to make the play on the short stuff. If VD is outside leverage, he'll be susceptible to digs and slants, that's where the LBs and SS have to step up and play team defense. But if you test him w/ outside breaking routes often enough, expect to run into trouble at some point. In 2011 I'll be watching VD to see if he contniues to have to have concentration lapses, especially against inferior oppopnents. One game he's shutting out Rand Moss, another he's getting lit up by Namaan Roosevelt. WHO???

I trust VD to play w/o safety help more than Sean b/c of the speed and tackling factor. I trust Sean to be around the ball more b/c his catch radius is much larger than Vontae's and press corners tend to be challenged more than off corners. Overall I like Vontae's game more, but I won't say he' the better corner. They are completely different players and I'm excited about seeing both of them develop.


Now that's some grade A fence sitting right there.

 

I didn't say he bad-mouthed Sean Smith. Those words were never written. If you can find them with my username attached to them, please provide them.

I just asked that he use the same logic or line of reasoning with Henne and use it with Sean Smith. He believes a lot of wrong perception, negative attention has been given to Henne because of the benching, following Pennington's shadow of leadership, etc. I think the same should be used for Smith in his comparison to Davis.

 

Pacino's best movie, without a doubt. Just watched it again a few days ago. Torrents are my friend. You made me grin from ear to ear with that reply DJ!!!

 

Arguments over two different types of developing young players. Not surprised really.
I like them both in different ways.
I still like Madison's quote or something thereof about SS. "Kid if you could just take the cheddar you can dominate"

 

No way, no how is Smith faster than Davis. Not even close. Line them up side by side to run a 40 yd race, and Davis smokes Smith every single time. Smith looks like a 4.5 forty guy to me, while Davis is a solid 4.4.

 

If we could have only one, it is Vontae for me without a doubt. He is more physical, which goes a long ways with me when looking at CBs, he is stronger, faster, quicker, and has just a better overall skill set. Vontae has one weakness IMO, and that is he plays out of control sometimes and I think that is something easier to improve upon than things like speed, quickness and physicality.

I like Smith too though. But even being the bigger of the two, he does not play bigger. He isn't physical. To me, he will sink or swim as a pro CB with what's between his ears, and hopefully his hands improve. I do expect he will swim though and we are very lucky to have him as our #2 CB.

 

They're about the same, speed wise. Davis' official combine time was reportedly 4.49 while Smith's was 4.47. However, I have seen Davis listed at 4.40 and Smith listed at 4.43 as well. Basically they're the same speed but Davis' more compact frame and quickness will make him appear faster to the observer.

 

You took that toooo seriously. What you said was that he should apply the same Henne tactics with SS. I was telling you that he didn't have to because he hasn't said anything about Sean Smith sucking.

 

I can't say I'd agree with that. In the early days of the Dolphins, Curtis Johnson was our best corner in every aspect and he played RCB. In later years, Madison played RCB and while Surtain was also a fine player, Madison was generally considered the best pure cover corner of the two. Around the league, it seems like Nnamdi Asomugha plays RCB, while Darrell Revis plays mostly left, though was on the right that time Ginn smoked him for the long TD. I think some teams, like Dallas and Denver, off the top of my head, play their best corner at LCB, but I think when we compare all teams, it ends up being fairly an even split where each plays their better corner, if they got one.
Going back through history, great corners like Mike Haynes and Willie Brown played RCB, while other all time greats like Herb Adderley and Jimmy Johnson played LCB. It really seems to me the side they play isn't much of anything to do with which is best corner on a given team, though all else being equal I'd think most teams will put their better run support corner on the left, since most teams run more to the right. That's all, IMO.