Hartline says He's very excited about our offense and the ''Spread concepts''

Henne, like Ginn before him, just causes emotions to explode Deej, to me he is simply a middle of the road, 2nd to 3rd yr starting Qb who is accurate, and safe, but has not really shown very much more, he could jump up, he could regress, he could stay the same.

I am of the opinion that I'd rather not take the risk of a jump up, or continued performance, which is why imho:

-make a play for a Vet Qb like Young or Orton as I think we are primed for success this season.
-failing that, hope that DTrain is a J-Jax/Larry Johnson clone who can carry a large load at Rb.

However if Henne retains the job I think he can do well enough as I've said, he reminds me of Jim Kelly on the upside, Kerry Collins on the downside.

 

got to have the QB & it won't be Henne in the spread, simple as that...

 

How do you know that Henning called many deep passes?

Here is a great write up about Henne:

Henning ran a very conservative offense by nature, and even when he has receivers run down field it is almost always a clear-out for underneath patterns. Henne did not have a chance to make-up for his mistakes with big plays because Henning and David Lee did not put him in position to do so.
Chad is a lot better at going through his progressions than we realize and project him to be. While I do think that he does go through his reads too quickly at times, Henne has shown me the ability to make good decisions and throws to his number two, three, and even fourth outlet. Throughout the season Henne struggled to find his number 1 target and was forced to dump it off to either an outlet receiver, or a tailback. This, of course, was criticized by us, and we label Chad for playing it too safe. While I would agree that Chad needs to be more aggressive at times, Henne suffered from atrocious playcalling and scheme. Countless times, it seemed as though the play was designed to clear out for a dump-off to the tailback, such as this one:

[video=youtube;mYZi-gYXa0Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYZi-gYXa0Y&feature=player_embedded[/video]



While Ronnie Brown made a nice play to pick up 15 yards, this is usually a pattern that gains 3-5 yards, and a sigh from the fans. Notice the route combination on the aerial view. Marshall and Hartline run fly patterns from the 20 yard line, with the safeties playing tight (Pittsburgh’s safeties were playing the middle of the field the entire game). Neither of them were going to be open, and Dan Henning knew it when he called this play. Anthony Fasano ran a delayed swing-type pattern and is the fourth option. This play was designed for Henne to look off the safety and then turn and fire to Ronnie in the flat. Do not let the production of the play disguise the meaning behind it. This is what Henne was asked to do, consistently.
Here is another where Henning calls clear out routes on the outside, with Fasano being the only outlet option.

[video=youtube;2EYqySDFv3k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EYqySDFv3k&feature=player_embedded[/video]


http://www.phinfever.com/newsite/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1&limit=2&limitstart=2

 

I don't see any reason to believe that Young or Orton are anymore than middle of the road starting QBs either (at best). Nor do I see any reason to believe that we would be more likely to be anymore successful with those guys than Henne. I would be fine with bringing in either (or another vet) but not at the cost of a draft pick, much less a high one.

 

Which is one of the great things about the NFL, you actually have to put players on the field and see how they do in game situations, the ultimate litmus test so to speak, do know Draft Picks are overrated, boom or bust affairs typically, do know Young and Orton have proven their basal level of competence and can grow from there, or regress, there are no guarantees.

Also happen to know that Young has been hanging out in Miami this offseason and attending the same charity events the Staff has attended.

 

I would say that Henne has also proven a base level of competence and can grow from there, or regress. You seem to imply that Orton (at the cost of 2nd rd pick) and Young are somehow better bets than Henne to grow and/or not regress. That's the part I don't agree with. I see all three as most probably guys we'll still need/want to upgrade from in a year or two (if the team success is high enough). And I see our odds of finding that upgrade to be much better if we don't spend a 2nd round pick this year on yet another middle of the road (at best) QB prospect.

 

Because I watched every game on rewind and saw the coaches film on rewind, and it showed players running deep often. They may have been covered, but Henning didn't only call short routes. Now Sparano or Henning may have been the culprit, but the plays itself had players running deep. Yes, the scheme still sucked as did the route design but nonetheless players ran deep.

 

I think what MPF was trying to say by posting that is that guys ran deep a lot by design to open up the underneath for shorter passes and that by design, Henning knew they wouldn't be open in much of those situations. I won't disagree though, that in general, when the deep play was open, he missed a lot.

 

Dan Henning's own preferences as laid down by him at coaching seminars are to throw deep (20+ yards) about 16-17 percent of the time (4 of 24). What's funny is in Carolina, Jake Delhomme and Rodney Peete threw deep under Henning almost exactly that percentage. In Miami, Pennington and Henne threw deep at half that rate.

Honestly I don't have much of a problem with not throwing it deep that often, as long as you can make it count when you do. Chad Pennington was accurate on the deep throws and could make it count. Chad Henne is not, and could not.

 

While I don't think Henne throws the deep pass well regardless, I wouldn't classify many of the deep routes run as potential targets by design. There was a very strong tendency to force the quick pass during Henne's development. They used the clock and buzzer in practice and emphasized getting the ball out. I think the result of that is that Henne is pretty good at getting the ball out quick. That's part of why he was so good compared to the rest of the league on 3rd and 7 or less and why he fared well against the blitz. On the downside, it is also part of why he struggles on the deep pass. Most often the routes are decoys he's not even supposed to look at and the few times they aren't you're basically asking him to make throws he's practiced less than most everything else. IMO Henne became exactly the QB they trained him to be. I didn't see him playing worse in the second half of games, I saw him playing exactly the same. His passes were just as accurate. His decisions had the same level of good and bad elements. The drop in his late game numbers was a failure of the system. The defenses simply knew what was coming and what Henne would do. They wanted a safe robot and they got one. If Henne is going to take that next step then either the system will improve enough to not set him up for failure and/or the rest of the team improves (.ie those same short passes get taken to the house by better play makers or the defense gets more turnovers) or Henne will break out of the robot mold on his own. Maybe he can channel a little (very little) of Brett Favre and do what the coaches don't want him to do and have it work out to a positive.

 

IMO there are several factors:

-the coaching staff was overly focused on a "don't make a mistake" philosophy rather than a "make a play" philosophy
-Henne is not an aggressive QB by nature
-Henne throws a low trajectory pass that makes completions more difficult
-the deep pass wasn't practiced as much so the timing wasn't developed

All of that can be improved upon. I don't believe that Henne will ever be a great deep passer, but he can improve.

 

No, not at all. He was doing fine until week 10 or whenever he got benched. I think it was a panic move and the coaches knew what they had with Penny, which was a perfect fit for Henning and Sparano's philosophy and design. What they realized was that Henne can't co-exist with Henning. It was Henning or Henne next season and obviously they went with Henne and also got him an OC to try to cater to his skillset, which is a spacing offense.

 

You're correct.

However, Henne's deep ball % isn't that far off from QB's that have had the same amount of starting experience even though he's played for a worse team and had even less opportunities to throw it deep. For example, Sanchez, whom a lot of people around here think is just great, completed 28% of his deep passes. Henne completed 25%.

 

Exactly! Add to the fact that everytime Henne got into a good temp that led to a great drive into scoring position, Henning would pull him out for 3 WC plays and then kick the FG. Henne has never been able to go through the growing pains like most QB's have. He plays well, he gets pulled for the WC, he plays badly he gets pulled for the WC and or benched.

 

In your opinion, what 2-3yr starting QB's are good at the deep ball?

 

Depends on what you mean by good at it. With the deep ball you get points for aggression as well as accuracy. The mere willingness to challenge the defense in all areas of the field creates other opportunities for you on other throws. For instance, Chad Pennington is actually a very accurate deep ball thrower and always has been. But he's not an aggressive one, doesn't challenge the defense that way that often, so he has to be accurate with those throws in order to make it all work.

Just off the top of my head I know Kyle Orton has a good and accurate deep ball. Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are good deep ball throwers, I think Brady might be a little more accurate than Peyton in that respect, but probably less aggressive. Aaron Rodgers' deep ball has improved tremendously since college and I think he's good and accurate there now, aggressive too. Matt Schaub has a good deep ball. Phil Rivers has a good deep ball. Vince Young actually does, even though with that Uncle Rico motion everyone was sure coming out that he wouldn't be able to throw deep. Vince just sucks at a lot of other things. Drew Brees throws a great deep ball. Tony Romo pretty accurate deep. I'm sure there are plenty of others. Just thinking offt he top of my head.

There are guys I don't consider to be very accurate on the deep ball like Roethlisberger and Cutler...that seem to make up for it by being aggressive.

 

I agree that he didn't call only short routes. The problem that I have with the deep routes called is that they were used as clearouts, opposed to downfield threats. Seeing that you watched every game and rewind too, as did I, you saw how many times they ran Levels. They ran it a plethora of times. They relied on it heavily as well as the Smash. There's both horizontal and vertical stretches in the Levels concept, with the vertical stretch typically being on the outside, used as a clearout for the underneath route. Why constantly on the outsides? There has to be a reason for the lack of a Seam/Divide read. The reason? Dan Henning doesn't believe in throwing over the middle. He doesn't and I know this because it came straight out of his mouth in a coaching clinic that he gave.

Moreover, the Levels concept is a short to deep read and while it is that, we didn't really test deep at all because we often used the vertical stretch as a clearout. You can blame Chad Henne for being passive I suppose, but you can also blame Dan Henning for the reasons I mentioned in the paragraph above. Its equal blame at times IMO. Its why I don't dismiss Chad Henne as a quarterback, but I don't let him off the hook either. I don't have an issue with the usage of Levels. I really don't. Its a great Hi-Lo concept that includes a fantastic vertical and horizontal stretch. Its, in my opinion, one of the best concepts in all of football. However, you have to make adjustments to it (Example: see Colts, Indianapolis). Dan Henning did not do that.

Last, considering how much they faced Man-Free and 2 Zone (as well as some 2 Read from NE and 2 Buc from quite a few opponents), there's no reason for the absolute craptastic job that Dan Henning did using his personnel groupings, the route distribution design, and the lack of creativity in general. There should have been more usage of several other concepts that are effective. He could have done a lot more with formations as well. Considering how much form of 2 he saw, there's no reason why he shouldn't have used more Trips packages.

 

Now, can you name any 2-3 yr QB's (which is what I asked initially and you gave me QB's with 6 to 13 seasons under them.)

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