Hartline says He's very excited about our offense and the ''Spread concepts''

I don't disagree

 

Then I'm confused as to why you think it is so difficult for Henne.

 

Because you're asking Henne to throw somewhere he isn't necessarily looking at the entire play. Its a lot more than a simple 2 on 1 read. He needs to read the shell coverage, then read the underneath coverage. I don't think he's quick enough processing his reads of the drops of the secondary. The QB needs to still see a lot of the field at once. Plus a lot of those concepts are requiring the QB to throw the receiver open, not throw to an open receiver. On top of that, the scheme is giving the QB limited protection options, and I don't think Henne can maintain his eye level downfield when there is any type of pressure on him.

 

And of course the problem there is Henne can't throw 10 play action passes without throwing an interception (that's an actual figure, not made up), he clearly abuses the authority an offensive coordinator gives him to call max protect, and he can't accurately throw the deep vertical. So the three things you see needing to be present in whatever offense Henne runs, I think he's shown very clear problems with all three things. You could almost say all three things need to be out of whatever offense he runs because he's shown he can't do them.

To me, Chad Henne's best offense would be a shotgun offense with a lot of receiving options. Give him fewer tight ends and backs lined up tight so that he can't keep calling them in to protect when nobody is coming at him, let him make his pre-snap reads, and then fire the ball to his favorite target. Whatever the coaches were thinking heading into the Detroit game, I don't know what was going on behind the scenes but it was a different offense. It was shotgun-based, they used a lot of wider splits, there were fewer players kept in to protect the quarterback. It was probably the most productive I saw the offense during the second half of the year. It's not perfect. Obviously Henne continued to show problems even with that approach, and even against that defense...at home no less. But I still think it's the best foot they can put forward if Henne is the guy, and if they have any amount of sense I expect that's a lot closer to what we'll see in 2011.

 

The problem is, how well will he protected? How does Henne do when being pressured? I believe you posted the numbers before, and they werent good at all. Eventually you'll see defenses start taking advantage of him having limited protection options. It worked a little better than the other stuff last season, but part of that has to do with the fact that it was a shift in the scheme, as you noted. Defenses catch up and adjust.

 

LOL! Ok, but I wasn't talking about checking down to his backs. I know backs are usually the check-down receivers. That statement was more tongue and cheek because it's been said many times here and in the media. No one would love to see us use our backs in the passing game more than I. I've said that many a time. I'm hoping Pouncey really helps in that regard. The point was, there were many times when Henne chose to opt for the safer route and sometimes shorter routes instead of using timing and ball placement, leading the receivers or putting it into tight windows, etc, etc, etc. He often opts for the safer throw. That's to what I was referring. Peace!

 

That's not my recollection. My recollection was that he was best when blitzed and on 3rd down in obvious passing situations. I thought he was in the top half of the league.

 

Yes, he was very good when being blitzed. But being blitzed doesn't entail being pressured. I'm sure our propensity toward max protect allowed for our ability to handle blitzes well.

 

I thought he was better against the blitz when there was no max protect and he had more targets.

 

Like I said, it's not perfect. I don't expect him to make some 180 degree turnaround with that approach. I just think that he showed evidence that he has specific problems doing three of the things you think need to be part of his offensive approach.

He's not good under pressure. You're right. And if he's not protecting himself with max protects he'll be subjected to more situations where he has to do things under pressure. But, I will say this. His handling of pressure from defenders in his face was better in 2010 than 2009. That's one area of upward trajectory, on a guy that showed generally no upward trajectory. So if you're fashioning an offense around his strengths and weaknesses, you can do worse than fashioning one where you count on him to continue improving in an area where he's yet to plateau. Strictly speaking, he has the tools to do better with defenders in his face. You need a good arm to handle pressure. It lets you make more subtle movements, rather than having to shake a defender completely. You just need to buy that little extra time because you've got the gun to get the ball where you need to get it regardless of leverage (Brandon Weeden is a master of this IMO, very Marino-like). When you've got a strong arm and you come under pressure, you don't need to completely break through a would-be tackler and buy yourself 3 more seconds to re-affix yourself onto the defense and get the ball out.

This is one problem Kyle Orton has. He doesn't have that kind of arm. He has even less ability under pressure than Henne, less tools to fight against it.

 

Efficiency while blitzed and efficiency while pressured are two very different things.

 

The best way to protect the QB like Henne IMO is to give him more options for getting rid of the ball. Shorter drops, quicker routes, more check down options, a credible running game would be nice. Too many times Henne's initial read was covered or he got quick pressure and the play was dead because a) Henne's not a good scrambler/improvisor and b) there were no outlet guys available to just dump the ball to.

Henning chose to do the opposite, or he allowed Henne to do the opposite, a hypothesis I don't buy for a second but that's besides the point. Moving ahead, I think we'll see a more diversified offense both in the run game and the pass game. More stretch runs to keep defenses from squeezing the run game, more 3 step drops to keep DBs and DL honest, better spacing to allow Henne to use his arm, and Marshall to work the short-intermediate areas in the passing game.

It's hard to knock a guy for poor accuracy when he's consistently having to throw 3 man routes into 7 man coverages. That's a tough way to earn a living, I dont care who the QB is. The "accurate" pass in those situations can also be the pass that's intercepted and job 1 for a QB is to make sure he defender cannot get to the ball. Making sure the WR can get to the ball is a distant 2nd so not all off target throws are bad throws IMO.

 

Henne was number 1 in the league in converting 3rd and 7 or less. A lot of the credit goes to Bess and Marshall of course.

 

All that is certainly true. But I don't see Henne maintaining eye level once he gets pressured. He has the arm to throw when pressured, but I don't think he has the pocket awareness to figure out where to throw when pressured. Once the pressure comes, he just goes for the checkdown or throwaway, or his patented tuck-and-run-into-the-back-of-an-OL move. Obviously its a matter of picking your poison, and trying to cover up deficiencies, but I hope it doesn't come to that.

 

Absolutely. Max protect is one way to protect the QB, giving the QB more options for getting rid of the ball is another (more effective) way to accomplish the same thing. There's nothing worse than seeing a DL coming at you when you're on the 5th step of your 7 man drop. None of your WRs are even close to finishing their route, your backs are busy looking for a blitz that didn't come, and you're stuck eating the ball, eating dirt, throwing it away, running for your life, etc.

Obviously sending more guys out is going to invite more pressure, but I trust Henne to get rid of the ball quickly and/or take punishment a lot more than I trust him to scramble and improvise for 5-7 seconds a la Big Ben while his WRs work themselves open down field.

 

Agree. A quick release to go along with the strong arm helps as well.

 

I think he does well with more targets b/c he's good at getting the ball out quick. Even if his primary is covered he can pick out the next guy. He struggles when he has to buy time with his feet. And like every other QB he struggles when his 1st and 2nd option are covered and there are no other options. It's not about eye level or being bad under pressure. It's about not being left with zero options and having to make a play by running around.

 

If we're on the same page and talking about the same Quick game, then he doesn't need to see the entire play after route distribution. He reads his keys pre-snap, decides on the side he attacks and reads a side of the field post snap.

He just needs to go through his pre-snap keys and then make a decision based off of that. He's reading his keys similarly to the way he reads them now.

I don't really disagree with that.

In quick game, no, not as he's dropping.

I don't really see the issue with that because even though at times he had struggles with ball placement, he was still solid.

 

Still floating your Daboll = Richard Smith theory?
For one thing, you, me, or no other fan knows for sure how much input Smith had in the defensive game planning when he was here, unless they have some direct quotes on the topic from Smith or Saban. So it amounts to idle speculation. Smith was (still is for that matter), a very experienced NFL assistant when Saban hired him and I'd really doubt he was brought in to fetch coffee and Little Debby's Snack Cakes for Nicky.

As for Daboll being just a limited OC, while Tony runs the offense, which it appears is the point you are trying to make, that really does not make any sense either. Then to call Tony an offensive specialist? His specialty is offensive line. He called plays one year in Dallas and never been an OC, which would not sound like the resume of an offensive specialist to any objective observer IMO. Tony gave Henning pretty much total control of the offense and until we see otherwise with Daboll, it amounts to an exercise in futility to espouse with any certainty that his role will be any less than Henning's was.

There is no way to know, other than guess, whether or not Daboll could have been hired as an OC anywhere else. Miami hired him fairly early in the process and passed on some bigger names to do so. No other team really had much chance to hire him. So to say for sure no team would have is simply idle speculation.

 

If we're talking about open gras, then its along the lines of the airraid stuff? I'm not sure anyone does that in the NFL, you're putting as much pressure on the WRs as you are the QB. I also think defenses are too fast and well coached in the NFL for it to be successful. You're still dumbing down the reads for the QB, and it comes at a cost.

So wouldn't that make it much easier for the defense to trick the QB?

Can a QB be consistently successful without being able to do that?

The issue is that you're asking him to not only be accurate, but make spatial estimations. He's not throwing to a receiver, he's throwing to an open space. So instead of estimating where the receiver will be, he also has to estimate how fast the defenders can get there. Especially at the NFL level, because they will cover ground a lot faster.

 

Its used in Air Raid but its also used in basic 3 step game.

Pretty sure they do it in the NFL. And I don't see how you're putting pressure on the WRs as much as the QB.

Its a 3 step read. Its not the base of the offense, its a simple concept. The 3 step game is basic reads.

Not much tricking can happen on a 3 step drop. And if it does, its an open grass concept. The route distribution would adjust.

No but that wouldn't happen because he would (or should) progress to that level after going through progressions, which Chad Henne didn't really do. What I mean is he didn't go through progressions. We spent a **** load of time in the 5 + 7 step drops and he was reading coverages.

I don't think its as difficult as you portray it to be. Its a 3 step game.

 

The 3 step is not as difficult as Stringer Bell is making out to be.

 

To see all the negative theories posted about Henne in this thread, I'm surprised he could even tie his own shoes or find his way out of the locker room.

 

Seriously. I am a supporter of Henne and I also understand that he has issues but the guy is not mentally ******ed.

By the way, that was not meant as an insult to the mentally handicapped children and adults. They are some of the nicest people I've met, even though I met them in HS.

 

Nah, he is moving into yr #3, he could easily improve, and every Qb has flaws it just so happens that Henne's flaws are similar to Jim Kelly or Kerry Collins, especially Bad Kerry Collins, only Henne is more accurate then Collins.

 

I guess I don't understand why we have to turn away from just debating the point and now start making a string of commentary on the people doing the debating, which MrClean has done and you seem to be following.

I don't think Henne will particularly excel with the quick game. Does that mean I think he's mentally handicapped or can't tie his own shoes? Not at all. I just happen to think that in my experience accuracy on those quick throws can be pretty hard to achieve. It's such a bang-bang play and I don't know that Henne can achieve accuracy if he's not able to lock on with his eyes for a certain amount of time, doesn't have a certain rhythm. Accuracy seems to be more important on those plays because the receiver needs to be able to haul in the ball quickly and begin his run after catch all in one smooth motion if the play is going to have success. The receiver has to have a confidence that the ball is going to be put in the same spot. And when I've seen Henne throw those plays, the placement seems erratic.

The Dolphins have actually run some one step drops in the two years Henne's been a starter, in preseason and regular season. The plays haven't generally had good results.

I'm sure he can try and get better at it but I don't think that just because some of us don't think he'll ever be good at it, our opinions should be transfigured in the manner MrClean transfigured them, and then seconded.

 

Not accurate enough? Why do you believe that?

According to PFF, Henne is next to last when it comes to his deep throw percentage of attempts. Henne attempted passes of 20yds or greater only 8% of the time. Only Sam Bradford attempted less last season.

In order to be fair, I'll compare new-er QB's (QB's with 2-3 seasons starting experience) and their deep throw success. Now, realize that some teams have better WR's, running game, OC, etc etc which will also have a big affect on these stats, but I just want to keep it simple.

So, 8% of Henne's attempts traveled 20yds or greater. He completed 25% of those passes and had 7.3% of those attempts intercepted.

15% of Sanchez's passing attempts traveled 20yds or greater. He completed 28% of those passes and had 6.3% of those intercepted.

13% of Matt Cassel's attempts traveled 20yds or greater. He completed 24% of those passes and had 5.2% intercepted.

14% of Matt Ryan's attempts traveled 20yds or greater. He completed 31% of those passes and had 5.8% intercepted.

18% of Joe Flacco's attempts traveled 20yds or greater. He completed 30% of those passes and had 5.8% intercepted.

14% of Colt McCoy's attempts traveled 20 yds or greater. He completed 30% of those passes and had 21% intercepted.

So, all in all, these QB's attempted deep passes about twice as much s Henne did and completed about 5% more of those passes.


You can see the rest here: http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/05/10/going-deep/

What I noticed is that QB's who actually threw the ball downfield ~15% of the time or greater had better success.

The top 10 QB's as far as completion percentage on deep throws, in order, attempted these throws the following % of all their attempts:

Young- 22%
garrad- 14%
Schaub- 8%
Rivers- 13%
Brees- 12%
Vick- 18%
E. Manning- 14%
Collins- 16%
Anderson- 15%
Rodgers- 18%

As you can see, only Shaub had a % the same to Henne and completed a higher percentage. The rest of the top ten, again, attempted the deep pass nearly twice as often on average.

In other words, a QB needs the practice and experience along with the right personel and play calling in order to be successful with the long ball. Notice that Brady (completed 35%) or Manning (completed 30%) blew Henne out of the water even though they are considered the top two QB's in the league? Why? Personel. As this article states concerning the low amount of attempts for Brady (10% of his passes went for 20yds or greater..he completed 36%), Schaub (8%..he completed 43%), and Ryan (9%...he completed 31%): For Atlanta, they ran a ball control offense that worked on methodically moving the chains that got them the number one seed in the playoffs. New England didn’t need to attack vertically because they had players running free over the middle...Houston found the offensive balance they were searching for, but their season was ultimately let down by their defense.

 

So you were talking about check downs but not really talking about check downs but "safer throws"?? Riiiiiiight. Are you sure you're just not trying to spin out of that statement now that you've been proven wrong?

 

Yes. I already explained. You haven't proved anything. You being totally pathetic just like your stats which don't prove squat. I wasn't even responding to you. Move along.

 

Yes I have. I proved that Henne does not "checkdown" as often as some people believe. You used to believe he did, at least that's what you wrote earlier on in this thread, but now you've changed your mind..albeit a little fishy...but you changed your mind which means I proved it to you.

And you call me pathetic? LOL! Of course you won't respond to me...classic reply from someone who can't stand up to the facts.

 

Never happened. No one commented on the people doing the debating. They are making the point that some comments pretend as if the young man was born with a mental deficiency. You are the first person to comment on a commenter in this case. There has been a lot of hyperbole on the ability of the guy and it just needs perspective of a young guy in his second year starting with a team collapsing around him.

You mean like how everyone defending Henne thinks he's Peyton Manning? On the internet, people love to put themselves on the cross. Let's all just try to debate and not get personal. You're taking seriously something that isn't serious. Where I'm from, they're called jokes.

EDIT: Exhibit A:

 

I already explained the "checkdown" thing. You, obviously, do not understand. It was pretty simple. The thing with your stats and I've said this like a million times before is that there are just soooooo many factors and circumstances that constantly get ignored when some people like you just reach and regurgitate these stats in a petty and futile way of proving their week point. If you go through your stats, you will understand what I'm talking about. Look at your response to Stringer, you proved yourself wrong with those stats. Stats have their place and purpose and some around here know how to use them and use the well. (you know who you are).. Not you. I love how people go to PFF and all of sudden they act like they're some professional statistical analysts, when in fact they're just guys whom have too much time on their hands. According to you Henne is just about as good as Brady and Manning....enough said. I suggest you go back and see where the many flaws in your research lie or just get a moist towel and keep doing what you are doing. Once again...Move along!!!

 

He's not saying it's difficult, he's saying that Henne is too dumb to understand it .

 

Wow...you mad? haha

Anyhow, and as I've written before, you're the type who won't believe the numbers because they prove you wrong. I think it's because you don't actually understand the stats.

My response to Stringer showed what I intended for them to show and if you understood what was written you'd have seen that fact.

The numbers prove Henne's long ball accuracy isn't that far off from other 2-3 yr starters even though he rarely gets to throw them and played on, typically, an inferior team. I've shown that the norm for a QB who completes a high % of those deep passes is because they throw a good amount of those deep passes. It's hard to get good at something when you rarely do it, and the stats prove that.

Sorry to confuse you. However, I will not "move along". haha

 

Exactly! I never attacked any individual poster. I made a sarcastic comment about some of the posts in general. I do not believe that violates the TOS. When I made a serious reply, such as post #99, it gets ignored, so what the heck. Two times I've seen that theory brought forth, two times I made a serious reply. Same thing both times...ignored. I guess that means the theory had a foundation about as stable as sand. JMO...then again I could be wrong.

 

I of course do not believe he is a ****** either.
I see no reason to believe his IQ is any less than the average NFL QB. Just a comment made with tongue in cheek I guess, having grown weary of a constant barrage of posts that say essentially:
Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't, Henne can't...ad nauseam ad infinitum.

 

They may say Henne can't, but they really mean Henne isn't. Henne isn't Dan Marino. Henne isn't Matt Ryan. Henne isn't Mark Sanchez. Henne isn't Peyton Manning. It's tiring.

 

This are some highly misinformed people on this board. Henning called many deep passes throughout the season, but Henne didn't take it for some reason. It has nothing to do with Henning. Henne had awful deep ball accuracy last year, and there is no other way around it. He did improve in many places but deep ball accuracy was terrible for him. He had an excellent intermediate game though. If he does fix that long ball, he can possibly be pretty damn good next year.