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Hartline says He's very excited about our offense and the ''Spread concepts''

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by djphinfan, Jun 12, 2011.

  1. Frayser

    Frayser Barstool Philosopher

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    And I think this is reasonable. The thing with "ball placement" and "accuracy" is that it's going to mean different things to different people. It is a fact that Henne's arm strength allows him to throw a lot of balls that we really never saw Pennington throw. And he can throw a lot of those with accuracy. I've also seen his touch pass get better and better since he's been here. But he does struggle on certain passes and his deep ball is average at best (and probably below average if we're being completely honest). But I've always said that most quarterbacks struggle with the deep ball, especially early on in their careers. Henne is still trying to develop chemistry with his receivers while also picking up the general nuances of the game, which can be especially crucial on deep balls where you have to make quick judgment calls about arc, distance, velocity, and location (back shoulder, leading, just throwing it up, etc . . .).
     
  2. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    That's the important part for him, imo.....his touch. He did start getting a bit better towards the end of the season, but still needs a lot of work in that dept, imo. He had that one type of pass with that one trajectory. There were so many plays when that if he had just slowed it down and put a bit of an arc on the ball, they could have been easy completions and sometimes big plays, but instead they would usually get batted down. Many different plays call for different types of passes. If he can improve his touch, his game will greatly improve. I think a lot of that also has to do with the fact that the game has to slow down for him, which it appears it hasn't yet done so. Let's hope it does.
     
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  3. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Its a way that showcase's his best strength, and that is his arm talent..
     
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  4. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    To me, from my unedumacated view, Henning made two grave errors as the OC:

    -tried to use Chad Henne as if his skillset was Chad Penningtons'
    -used Beast as if he were Greg Camarillo, same routes, same inflexibility.

    Cannot wait to see if Daboll uses Beast the way he used Josh Cribbs in Cleveland.

    We can quibble about the running game, though we did wind up 11th in the NFL in rushing attempts (31st in YPC) but to my eye Henning was not as creative as he could have been, as Alen said, it was as if he mailed in his retirement papers by midseason.
     
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  5. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    And toughness, Chad Henne is much tougher then he is given credit for being, even his detractors give him that much.
     
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  6. gandalfin

    gandalfin Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    Henne's ball placement is excellent on certain types of routes. In 2009, he threw some really fine back shoulder throws, I mean really perfect, but for some reason Henning didn't call many of those in 2010.

    That is one kind of throw Henne excels in. He definitely improved his touch passes. Others, like slants he needs work on. His deep out's are rather inconsistent.

    His deep ball accuracy leaves a lot to be desired. Let's face it, Henne is a work in progress. Some other posters mentioned he did his best work from the shotgun when things were spread out and there's no doubt about this. He'd have some success with this type of offense, then Henning would go away from it. Go figure.
     
  7. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Its all good mate. :)
     
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  8. MrClean

    MrClean Inglourious Basterd Club Member

    That does not surprise me.
     
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  9. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Depends what you run. But seeing that you said it as basically the entire spread, why do you think he'd struggle? Which parts?
     
  10. Robert Horry

    Robert Horry New Member

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    Its funny because one of Henne's best game in his 2 year career was against Detroit, a game where he was 90% of the time in spread.
     
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  11. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Wassup! Yeah man, I guess I was referring to the typical college spreads and Henne has even run bits of it at Michigan. I'm also not sure if I'm willing to put him in the same category as Brady and Manning. :lol: I know what you meant. :wink2: I have no idea of how they intend to use him or what type of spread concepts they may have up their sleeves, but I'm excited to see it and I think it can benefit Henne, That"s what I was getting at with this statement:
    Peace!
     
  12. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    He would need the ball placement to be elite like Brees for me to say he has elite accuracy. Now you can be elite in different areas. Brady is an elite QB, but his accuracy isn't elite. He's mostly about processing speed and decision making. I just don't see any areas where Henne is elite except arm strength and that's not important enough to make him an elite QB (potentially).
     
  13. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    This is something else that bothers me along with the whole false "accuracy issue" thing.

    "Checkdown Chad"? I mean, have you even looked at his average yards per completion?

    Henne, last season, had a 6.8 YPC average.
    P. Manning had a 6.9.
    Matty Ice had a 6.5.
    Mark Sanchez had a 6.5.
    Bradford had a 6.0.
    Palmer, 6.8
    Fitzpatrick, 6.8.

    AND...don't try to tell me that the Dolphins WR's had great after the catch yardage. I'll prove you wrong there too.

    Add to this the fact that Henne was also within 20 yards for passing yards per game average from these QB's:

    Brady
    Kitna
    Ryan
    Fitz
    Flacco

    And Henne had more yards per game than:

    Bradford
    Cutler
    Freeman
    Smith
    Hasselbeck
    Cassel
    Sanchez
    Garrad
    Favre
    Campbell
    Collins
    Anderson
    Clausen
     
  14. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    I agree nearly 100%.

    I would like to add that IMO the reason Henne lacks consistency in his long ball is because he never gets to throw it. A QB needs to find his groove and attempt those throws a hell of a lot more than Henne did last year.

    That and once he gets some chemistry with his WR (and they stop rotating them in and out because of injuries) he'll get much better.
     
  15. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Don't get me wrong, I see nothing in Henne that I would call "elite" at this time. As you wrote, MAYBE his arm strength, but nothing else.

    However, when all is considered I think he's doing about as well as many QB's would do in their first 2 years of starting...even those elite ones you just mentioned.
     
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  16. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Problem I have with Henne is he is a very paint by the numbers, he doesn't really create plays, he takes what is there each time, every time.

    Can he make the jump to a system that expects him to do more?

    :dunno:

    And that is why I'm looking at the Used Qb Car Lot and kicking some tires MP, I "think" he can be Jim Kelly, but do not know that to be a fact.
     
  17. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    I'd love for him to be Jim Kelly.

    Also, you just described QB's like Brady when you said Henne, "...doesn't really create plays, he takes what is there each time, every time."

     
  18. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Not so much, the older Brady had little problem throwing down the field to make plays, he went away from the SB winning sort of safe, effective, Qb, to play creating Qb as he got older.
     
  19. Sceeto

    Sceeto Well-Known Member

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    Have you even watched any games? Another perfect example of how stats can be misleading and taken way out of context.
    You haven't proved anything. I could easily knock down your statistical house of cards, but no time and it would be way too boring.
    I'll just say you're right, Henne is as good as Brady and Manning or within 20 yards of them. He has great accuracy and throws a great deep ball, etc, etc, etc. I hope I'm within 20 yds of a liquor store.:drink:
     
  20. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    Not really. The only season where he was a "play maker" was his first season with Moss and Moss could make any QB a play makers. Nearly his entire career has been built around the safe, high percentage throw, or the dump off pass. I don't want to hijack this thread, but that's why I've never considered Brady one of the top 10 or 20 All Time great QB's.
     
  21. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    lol...Your hyperbole won't win you any arguments with me. And neither will the old "Do you even watch the games?" lol...That's a huge copout and even a bigger one than the "I could prove you wrong BUT"... lol

    The fact of the matter is, you can ignore all the objective statistical data that prove you wrong because well...they prove you wrong. However, when one player averages 6.8 ypc, which happens to be extremely close to the ypc of some of the best QB's in the game it means something. Now, you can either say that it means they are ALL "check down kings" or they all aren't. There is no other choice.
     
  22. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    Not gonna do it MP, not yet another "Henne is better then you think!" post a thon, we've watched him play for 2 yrs now, opinions should have been formed based on what we all saw on the field, that does not mean opinions won't differ, it does mean pro or anti has what they believe is compelling proof in their minds about Henne.

    If Sparano wants to hitch his wagon to Chad Henne, successful or fired, then I respect his comittment to what he believes he is seeing in Henne, personally I'd suggest against doing that, but he is the HC and I'm merely a fan.
     
  23. NaboCane

    NaboCane Banned

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    The only thing I want to hear out of Hartline is the slap of footballs hitting his hands as he catches them.

    I've always liked him and I believe in him and have even when he's been criticized, but it's time for him to be consistently good rather than the question mark he's left us with for two seasons.

    Shut up and catch the damn ball.

    That should be the Dolphins' motto this season: Shut up and execute. They went 7-9 the past two seasons; they have no room to talk, they shouldn't be saying anything at all, really. At least I don't want to hear **** from any of them. I just want to SEE every one of them step up and play consistently well.
     
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  24. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    I'm not trying to say that Henne is better than you think. What I'm saying is that if you're going to criticize him it shouldn't be about "checking down" or "accuracy".

    Of course opinions will differ, but I will also show others that some opinions are wrong by using irrefutable, objective stats and information.

    One more time for those who may not have read my opinions about Henne in other threads. I don't know how Henne will do in the future. I do know that he's been thrown into a very bad situation and IMO no QB could have done much better than he has. Now sure, the all time greats, (Marino, Manning et al) probably would have played better, but I'd bet my life not even they would have been able to win a playoff game with this organization. And isn't that the bottom line? Having a TEAM good enough to go far into the post season in order to make a run at the Super Bowl?
     
  25. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    Henne rarely targeted his "check down" players, the RBs. His top 3 targets in both attempts and completions were Marshall (132), Bess (118), and Hartline (68), only one of whom played a full season. Only one other QB in the entire league had 3 WRs as his top 3 targets, that'd be Aaron Rodgers. Ronnie, Ricky & Lousaka were targeted a total of 80 times. Fasano got 55 targets, no other TE was above 20. OTOH, Mark Sanchez targeted LT 80 times alone. But his name doesnt begin with "Ch" does it? :wink2:

    I know "Checkdown Chad" may have a nice ring to it, but it couldn't be any further from the truth. Henne showed no inclination to want to overuse his backs in the passing game, and the design of the offense wasn't suited for that style of play even if he was. Our backs were used to augment pass protection, not threaten the secondary and help the WRs work down field.
     
  26. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    I actually hope that Henne checks down to his backs a ton more this season. We simply have to threaten more areas of the field more consistently to create better spacing. That means more deep passes and seam passes as well as passes to the flats and short middle off of delays. That should make it easier for Marshall and Bess to work the middle depths.
     
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  27. djphinfan

    djphinfan Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    I agree, but we must attack free agency to rebuild that unit..A Deangelo Williams, or Bradshaw, or Sproiles is a must..We have Dthomas at this point to execute what your talking about and not much else..I know he has good hands but we need that jukin quick back that can take the screen to the house.
     
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  28. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. That unit is not finished yet. But whomever they bring in has to have the skill set to be used as a receiver out of the backfield.
     
  29. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I agree with you on some of the mistakes made by the offensive coaches in 2010. However, what I wonder is how much Brian Daboll as the next Richard Smith is really going to change that.

    Daboll would not have been hired as an OC anywhere else in the league. He was hired by a lame duck offensive specialist who had already put together Daboll's staff for Brian.

    Alen started a really excellent discussion of the major tenets of Dan Henning's offensive philosophies, as stated directly by Henning himself in various coaching seminars, particularly with respect to the passing game. And the most telling thing to come out of that discussion was looking at how the 2008 to 2010 offenses directly violated many of Henning's core principles.

    That's very concerning. It doesn't paint the picture of an offensive coordinator who is here to remake the offense. It paints the picture of a guy who was brought in for specific tasks. One of them is clearly moving the running plays to more zone blocking. The other is clearly the insertion of more 3 step drops and short routes. You have to wonder though...is that it?
     
  30. MarinePhinFan

    MarinePhinFan Banned

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    But if he does that will some start calling him "Horrible Checkdown Henne"?
     
  31. rafael

    rafael Well-Known Member

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    If the team is winning more then who cares? As it stands now fans create nicknames based on inaccurate perceptions all the time.
     
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  32. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    If he's playing horrible, then I would assume yes.
     
  33. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    Do you think Henne could have some success in a WCO?
     
  34. padre31

    padre31 Premium Member Luxury Box

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    The only answer is to wait and see how it turns out.

    What interests me about Daboll, aside from making Watson and Hillis productive, is how he had no Wr's to use, no effective ones anyway, what happens when he has a solid Wr corps to work with in Miami?
     
  35. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Draft Forum Moderator Luxury Box

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    I personally do not think so. Ball placement isn't his specialty, and he lacks the ability to make throws while improvising. I believe you need both in a WCO. The ball placement for RAC is the bread and butter while the ability to make big plays off improvisation keeps the equations balanced.

    I think of Henne as more of a vertical guy because windows are bigger to throw to when receivers are coming back to the ball or running vertically. But then, he lacks the ability to place the ball well enough to be caught vertically. Hence, I don't think he's really any kind of QB because he's not really worthy of starting...doesn't have enough tools in the arsenal to make any equation balance.
     
  36. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    I was hoping to see Stringers response but I agree with you to an extent.
     
  37. GMJohnson

    GMJohnson New Member

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    I absolutely agree, our spacing was HORRIBLE last year. Thomas & Clay appear to be good check down targets, and I think using check downs as a blitz beater is preferable to using max pro, the only exception being when we're looking to attack deep down the field. I'm still hoping we can add a D Will or Bradshaw, DWill especially, that would seriously put our offense on a whole nother level IMO.
     
  38. Disgustipate

    Disgustipate Season Ticket Holder Club Member

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    That's a bit overboard. It's not as if the circumstances leading to his hire were are by any means particularly rare in the league. A lame duck, as opposed to a summarily fired coach is probably most likely to be making hires as well anyway.

    How often do you see offensive coordinators allowed to hire their own staff, especially working under a coach with an offensive background?

    If Tony Sparano is muting elements of his offensive coordinators philosophy, that element of zone blocking almost certainly will not be there.
     
  39. Stringer Bell

    Stringer Bell Post Hard, Post Often Club Member

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    The only system I could see Henne having success in is one with a lot of play action, max protect, and vertical throws. Although to be honest I don't think he's accurate enough on the deep ball to be very successful, but I ththink that type of system will at least limit the chance of him being a huge detriment. I think he could float, not swim, in that system.

    Anything that requires quick decisions or good ball placement isnt going to work with him IMO. He would sink in a spread or a WCO IMO.
     
  40. alen1

    alen1 New Member

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    I really don't see why anything with quick reads would be a failure considering its a 2 on 1 read. Its not rocket science here. Its an open grass concept read.
     

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