His fastest 40 was a 4.38. Nicks's fastest time was a 4.42. According to ck, The Giants only have one receiver named Steve Smith.
Could care less about what his 40 was to be honest. He's the definition of a big play WR, always has been. He's def not consistent, but just the threat of him taking one to the house on any play makes a world of difference for what Nicks has to work with.
Mario Manningham ran a 4.59 at the Combine and Hakeem Nicks ran a 4.51 at the Combine. You can say the 40 times are irrelevant and you have to look at what they do to defenses, but that's the exact point I'm trying to make. LOOK at what Brandon Marshall does to a defense. There's a safety over top of him at all times. He creates space for the rest of the offense, and he threatens teams deep, has done so his entire career. I remember one week Marshall was upset about how much he wasn't getting the ball so Dan Henning sat him down and showed him film and percentages that showed it clear that Marshall was drawing more over-top safety help than any other elite receiver out there, and that was why he wasn't getting the ball more. And LOOK at Brian Hartline's effectiveness down the field. He often creates separation, and Chad Henne just doesn't throw it well to him. He's averaged 15+ yards per catch his first two years in the league. I created a video a year ago of the routes that Hartline ran deep and Henne throwing the ball to him. This was back when everyone was high on Henne. You know what that video showed? You know what 90% of the comments on YouTube pointed out? That Hartline was always open and Henne needs to get better at hitting him. It's the fact that both players ran 4.52 in the 40 yard dash that people are using as a reason to say the Dolphins "had no speed". Well, if that's what you're going to look at, neither do the Giants, and neither did the Cardinals back when Boldin was there.
Pad stability has something to do with speed as well. Its not just forty times. Not directing this at you Chris or anyone else, just a general statement. I also do agree that they did not lack speed, but they lacked design and better play from the quarterback position IMO.
Yeah I probably should have made myself more clear. When I'm comparing 40 times and everything, what I'm trying to do is bring the discussion to the same level that I feel others are taking it, and showing that even on that basis they're wrong. In other words, if nobody knew the 40 times of Brandon Marshall, Brian Hartline or Davone Bess, I don't think anyone whatsoever would try and make the argument that the receivers unit seriously lacked speed, and was a detriment to the offense on that basis. I just don't even think it would get brought up. Davone Bess would be known as the one-dimensional short guy that works best in the slot, Brian Hartline would be known as the deep play maker, and Brandon Marshall would be the all-around star that demands extra attention every time he's on the field and can make plays deep and short. It would look balanced, effective, etc. But it's those 40 times that stick in peoples' heads. They know that Hartline only ran a 4.52. They know that Marshall ran the same. And so that's where the "lack of speed" argument comes in for all these people, IMO. Brian Hartline could have run the exact same 40 at Ohio State's pro day, but if the thumbs that timed it accidentally clicked at 4.42 instead of 4.52, nobody would be making this argument. Nothing would actually be different, but nobody would be making this argument.
lol How often does Hartline create seperation? I can say Chad Henne makes great decisions and it sounds good with no % or # attached too. We're going to bring youtube comments as reference points now? Yikes. Point is, Manningham is a much better WR, imo. I'm sure people will argue by what margin, but I can't see many saying they'd take Hartline over him. NY has a better offense at virtually every position (we're better at FGs) so it's only natural that when they have a player like Manningham, his ability is magnified by all the other talent around him.
By the way another offense that certainly lacked no passing prowess but which "lacked speed" would be the old Cincinnati passing attack featuring Chad OchoCinco (4.57), T.J. Houshmandzadeh (4.61) and Chris Henry (4.50).
Np, man. I was just sayin Manningham deserves more credit than he gets a lot of the time. That NYG offense as a whole is a beast.
I didn't realize they give extra "handicap points" on the scoreboard to a team for starting a 2nd year starter instead of a veteran at the position.
I knock Hartline b/c IMO he isn't good enough. He is a complimentary WR who doesn't compliment our primary receiving threats, Marshall and Bess. Marshall is an elite possession WR, Bess is a very good possession WR, Fasano is average, Hartline IMO is average at best. Given that Marshall and Bess are our top 2 wideouts and playmakers in the passing game, our passing offense should be designed around getting them open in areas where they can do maximum damage. That means a speed guy who can force defenses to expand vertically and allow space for BM and Bess to wreak havoc underneath. Or if the defense overplays BM and Bess, a guy who can make them pay for it. Not with a 10-15 yd catch, with a 20-40-60 yd plays. It doesn't even have to be a speed guy, it can be a guy who catches intermediate routes, makes a c couple guys miss and then runs for 20-30 yds after the catch. Hartline isn't that guy. Hopefully Gates will be able to fill that role. Hopefully Clay can be the seam threat we lacked last year. Marshall on the slant and shallow cross should be a staple of our offense, but it cant be if we don't have a TE than can force LBs to gain depth in their drops. Marshall on the fade/fade stop should be used 3-5 times per game depending on the matchup, but if the safeties are cheating to the outside b/c we have nothing to threaten the deep middle then Marshall and whoever the flanker is will both have trouble creating any space. Marshall on the dig route should be another staple. A solid running game to force LBs closer to the LOS and a deep threat to keep the safeties honest should create good windows and could make Marshall damn near unstoppable on a dig route, especially off of play action. Of course we'll need a run game and an improvement on those pee-wee league play fakes we used for most of last season. The good news is that Ireland spent the draft trying to add all of these dynamics to the 2011 offense. Will it work, no one knows. But it feels good to see that the F.O. recognized the problems and that they're taking steps to fix them.
If you subtract the double moves, play action & flea flickers, Hartline got behind the defense 0 times. And we don't need a guy who is deceptively fast, who has to lull a DB to sleep and then sneak past him. That stuff happens once a game, if that. We need a guy who is conspicuously fast, that defenses will have to account for on every play or a guy who can take a short pass and manufacture a big play out of it, preferably a guy who can do both. I understand why people like Hartline, tough, smart, dependable, technically sound, but he's not the type of WR who compliments what we have w/ Marshall and Bess. Drafting Gates was a tacit admission of this.
There is a lot of good football being talked in this thread, but we all need to remember disagreements don't need to become personal. Attack the post if you must but not the poster.
I think a misconception is that these team gatherings are no big deal in terms of the big picture..I disagree with that notion.. I just heard Donald driver dance around the subject of not spending ANY time whatsoever as a group..0..and dont plan on it either, saying that ''their just enjoying the fact that their world champs. I don't think it should be underestimated...I mean thats pathetic if you ask me..and I'am sure as hell happy our team has been 1 of the frontrunners in that dept. I'll just say this...leaving these rich athletes on their own with no nutritional or physical guidance is not good for that particular team... I think moreso than ever, this year, this unity that is being built by some teams is going to have some quantifiable impact on performance.
“Just his presence would add everything,” Bess said at David Clowney’s annual football camp in Delray Beach. “(Teams) would be so worried about him running by people, so now they’ve got to defend that. I’m really excited. I hope he catches on quick and helps the team.”.. Anyone care to define ''everything'' in this context?.. Sounds to me like a relieved receiver.
Hopefully Gates will add some of this: [video=youtube;MyPtJF-IgPc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyPtJF-IgPc[/video] W/o all the alligator arms and running out of bounds.
That's not even the point. It's about what you expect from them and what leeway you give because of inexperience. On any job, there is some leeway afforded to a recent hire vs. a guy who has been there 10 years. More, and better work is expected from the guy who has been there and done that.
I don't understand this line of thinking. I don't say that condescending. I mean that as I'd like more information to understand, because here is what I see. So, if Marshall and Bess should be getting the majority of the balls (which I can't disagree with), how much production do you foresee this 3rd WR having? Because you want a strong running game, you want Bess and Marshall to own the intermediate short passing game, you want a TE to own the seam, and you want a deep threat WR to break open 40-60 yard plays. If you want all that specialty from the passing game, then you're saying you want Chad Henne to be the main focus of the offense again, which you've stated by past posting history is not a good situation to put him in. We need to stop viewing this perfect world that is going to make him win. When continually try and consider all the great things he needs to win, you're really just saying "we need this to cover this up". That's my conclusion anyways. Marshall ran plenty of fades all year long. You know when he got those balls thrown to him? When Tyler Thigpen was running show. It's a staple of Dan Henning's offense. It was a staple for Chad Pennington throwing to Greg Camarillo and Davone Bess. With the addition of Brandon Marshall, I can promise you that it didn't disappear. I say it with conviction because I saw the decision to not throw the ball there by Chad Henne live on many occasions. You don't see a lot of that on TV and in the replays of these games. You might be surprised to see Hartline's career numbers in terms of YAC and YPC. It's very impressive. You said it yourself, it doesn't have to be a speed guy, then why for the continuining conversation about the need for speed? Also, I will continue to harp until I'm blue in the face, what did Ted Ginn do for Chad Henne in 2009? Nothing. He brought the same level of defensive game plan that Brandon Marshall did all year long. Only difference is that DC's wouldn't commit as hard as they would to stopping Ginn like they would Marshall. Ted Ginn did nothing to open up the intermediate games for Greg Camarillo and Brian Hartline, who I determine you consider the same, seeing as you claim he doesn't offer anything we don't have already. So, my point is that, we had the ULTIMATE deep threat and he didn't change anything. Chad Henne wasn't any different in that "big play" part of the game then compared to last year, when we say he didn't have it. I'm also interested in seeing this "so-called" immeasurable space these WR's are supposed to create. Creating the space isn't the problem. This team dominates man coverage. We have problems throwing guys open and throwing into windows/holes within a defense. It has nothing to do with the creating of space. That is timing, awareness, cohesion, and accuracy.
I think we can get into real trouble when breaking down a player's inferences when they're attending a football camp. IMO, Bess is saying nothing of note. He's clearly giving the status quo of talking about a person's speed and what their abilities are. The same things were said about Ted Ginn.
So, then by your definition of a speed guy, the only thing you quantify to equaling a deep threat is someone that just blows by someone one straight nine routes? I think you're doing Briant Hartline and every WR a disservice when you take that out of the equation. I also think you'll find that most big plays are created by the same routes you've discharged as "don't counts". Point of note also--Chad Henne's "play-actions" were abominable. So, to disregard any plays where he got behind the defense because of a play-action is hog wash really because that part of the game was non-existent. I seem to remember him getting behind the defense twice in the Browns game (one Joe Haden made a fine play, the other Henne made a poor recognition and worse throw and i was thrown for an INT). I think you'll find there is more plays where Brian Hartline is throwing his arm's up in the air as to say "WTF" to his QB for missing him deep.
We also drafted earlier (had a better record) than half the league. And that's not good enough either. The problem w/ the unit (1-5) was lack of depth and versatility. Too many possession guys and no competent backups to replace an injured/winded starter. I dunno what Gates can bring to the table, gushing about rookies is against my religion, but I hope that he can bring some of what was missing to the table.
Disagree, how can you have a pair of Wr's one who went over 1,000 yds, and the other who would have reached 1k yds, and find the offense limited? Simple, injuries, Hartline missed what..5 games? 4.5 games? Beast missed 2.5 games, that has an impact. As in 475 yds worth of production disappeared, Shuler, Wallace, Moore, Curtis accounted for: 163 yds And Moore's mostly came on a single long reception. No real mystery why the passing game was really unproductive, add in the running game's decline and this is not Sphinx like.
I'm not a thin skinned guy, I don't mind either way 23. In an equally non-condescending way Ill ask you, why do you think Ireland drafted the players that he chose? Let me clarify. I'm talking about a complimentary WR, whose primary focus is to create space for Marshall and/or Bess. I don't care if the comp WR catches a single pass, so long as he's serving as a credible threat to the defense and creating space underneath he's doing his job. Who cares about Chad Henne? This has nothing to do w/ him, it's about the team. Being able to stretch the field is important for any offense, regardless of who the QB is. Why do you think Atlanta sold the farm to move up and take Julio Jones? They have Mr. "Miami should've passed on Jake Long" at QB, a Pro Bowl runner, a HOF TE, a strong OL and an elite WR in Roddy White. But they lacked explosiveness and they made a very bold move to change that. For whatever reason, Henne and Marshall didn't seem to have the timing and chemistry down on fade routes. One of my biggest complaints about Henne is that he didn't trust his #1 playmaker to make plays for him, and that's def something he needs to have fixed come September. But I wouldn't read to much into Thigpen's one play to Marshall, it was one play. And he got his *** chewed out for it. Perhaps that's why Henne was reluctant to do it. Hartline's numbers are decent, but again, he's not getting the job done. IMO we're not well served by a WR who runs intermediate routes and takes advantage of the space created by Marshall and Bess. That basically turns BM & Bess into expensive decoys who allow Hartline to flourish. Damn that. I want a complimentary guy who doesn't eat up Marshall and Bess' space, but creates space for Bess & BM by stretching the field vertically. The perfect guy for me would be a Mike Wallace type : [video=youtube;bDdr6I-j1lw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDdr6I-j1lw[/video] Not a high volume guy, but he demands respect. And even when you give him a big cushion and bail immediately at the snap like Allen did in this play, he can still smoke you. I'm dreaming that Gates can be a similar type WR. Ted Ginn is another scapegoat IMO. He's definitely not a #1 WR, but as a 3rd or 4th WR I think he would add a dimension to the offense that we're currently missing. The problem is that as a 9th overall pick he was expected to be a lot more than a complimentary. Not helping matters was that Ginn was soft on a team w/ the ultimate tough guy identity. He couldn't beat a jam, didn't run good routes, and had a lot of drops. Other than that he was pretty good. It absolutely has to do with space, that's what passing windows are all about. Zones are made up of 5-8 guys responsible for certain areas on the field. The spaces between them are the windows and the more you can get a zone to expand the bigger these windows get. Marshall is great at exploiting intermediate areas, behind the LBs & in front of the safeties. But last year we had no running game & no deep threat. DBs and safeties were all crowding the intermediate areas and making it difficult for our passing game. Having a Mike Wallace type forces the safeties to gain more depth than they would need if Bess or Hartline were coming at them. Those extra yards that the safeties must surrender to contain a Wallace type means tons of space for Marshall to get open behind the LBs w/o the safeties interfering. Additionally, a strong run game can force the defense to come closer to the LOS and open up space behind the safeties. If the LBs come up and the safeties dont, then again, you have huge windows behind the LBs. If the LBs and safeties both stay back, you bludgeon them w/ your strong run game until they have to try something else.
I agree w/ all of that, depth at WR is definitely a secondary or tertiary concern in the big scheme. But having the ability to stretch the field goes hand in hand w/ the power run game. When the run game forces teams to over play the run, you need to have at least 1 homerun hitter to hammer them with. Imagine our offense w/ a deep threat opposite Marshall and a strong running game. How you you defend that?
We'll see if you're right. Perhaps the Packers do end up paying for their crime of not engaging so diligently in these players-only pseudo practices. We'll just have to see.
He's implying that Hartline would have went over 1000k if he hadnt gotten hurt. Which IMO is irrelevant. We need a WR who stretches the field and sets the table for Marshall, not a guy who eats off of Marshall's plate. Ireland tried to explain this prior to and during the draft.
He said a pair went over 1k and another one would have. I took it to mean Hartline was the other one who would have.
