of course he did, hes a top 5 QB in this league..I believe GM was talking about the first superbowl and mixed up his words..The man knows his football as well as anyone on this board.
He already is that franchise guy. The Atlanta franchise is completely turned around and Matt Ryan is a big part of that. They will be in the mix for the next ten years with Matt Ryan as their QB.
Jeff Ireland's four drafts strongly support my opinion. That's what I've been saying. They STRONGLY support it. I can't think of many new regimes that came into any city anywhere in the last fifteen years or so, treated QB as a luxury position, and had success. If you can think of something I'm missing though let me know.
He's a part, but not a part that has shown it can carry them to a championship. He has thus far shown that he can't carry them when the running game struggles. Basically he's shown what Henne has. It's the same with Sanchez. He has shown that he can be part of a team that can make it to the conference championship. A part that played no better than what Henne provided last year. The difference is that fans tend to simplistically just consider the result and and assume that one QB played better simply b/c of it without looking at the actual play. And then they say "we won therefore we must have a franchise QB".
I would agree that Wanny probably considered the QB just another position and that Parcells may not have made it a priority. I think it's a jump to say that's how Ireland feels.
The problem to me though is that Ireland didn't really appear to do anything differently in his first draft without Parcells around. It seems as though his priorities did not change at all.
I think that Wanny should be viewed separately in his own category, outside the box so to speak, because he was a straight up idiot.
Well you're the one who said this thread was 'straight comedy'. This must be your contribution. 'Don't draft a QB in the first round for four years because he might be a bust like Pat White.' Awesome strategy. Was Pat White even projected for the second round? I'm not sure what an enormous reach for a gimmick player has to do with anything we've been discussing.
lol You said there was no difference between Ireland's draft and what Parcell's did, right? Well, Ireland not drafting any Pat White-like players is a difference. A very nice one. When did I ever say don't draft QBs in the 1st round? All I said was that there have been plenty of 1st round QBs in recent years that have been busts. Not throwing your 1st at whatever QB is left on the board just bc it's a position of need is a good thing. And that doesn't mean they don't care about the position. It just means they aren't trying to reach on talent to fill a need as much as you may like them to.
Oh sorry, I misunderstood you. I agree you don't want to carelessly draft a QB in the first round just to do it but at some point in four years you would think a worthy kid would come along. I'm not necessarily calling them out for not getting someone in the first round this year. I'm saying that looking at their four year body of work it appears pretty clear that they didn't make QB a priority. They were only willing to do it if the stars aligned perfectly. FOs don't usually do that when they are trying to turn a losing organization into a winning one.
The Miami Dolphins led the league in pass protectors per pass play in 2008, when Pennington was the QB. Was that Pennington abusing the system as well? Back to the play in question, look at he SS running untouched through the A gap and nearly decapitating the QB. Inability to pick the blitz is a much more simple/plausible explanation for why extra protectors would be left in. IMO. And even that didn't work.
Got it the first time, but thanks. I don't think Ben is in the same league w/ Manning, Brees, Brady, Rivers or Rodgers. I'd put him in the next tier with Vick, Romo, Schaub & the reason I would is b/c Ben hasn't shown the ability to carry his team in the absence of a good defense and/or running game. The Steelers play dominant defense year in and year out and they usually have an above average running game to go with it. That's why they win, not b/c of their QB. JMO.
Who were they supposed to get? And when? We took Henne in 2008, with the plan of sitting him for 2 years. We win the division so we're picking in the 20s in 2009, the only top QBs available were Stafford, Sanchez & Freeman. Should we have traded up for one of them? We got Vontae, Sean, & Hartline in the draft & we probably get none of them if we traded up that far. Besides, Henne hadn't even started a game yet at this point so it's unreasonable to expect we'd be taking a QB anyway. Henne held is own pretty well in 09. He took over an 0-3 team and went 7-3 before finishing 0-3. Had some very good games vs NE, NY, Jax, Carolina etc and looked like a promising prospect. Should we have moved up for Bradford in 2010? Even if it was an option & I dont think it was, I doubt anyone was thinking "we need to trade our entire draft for a QB" in April of last year. The talk was about NT, FS, OLB, & #1WR. Enter Soliai, Clemons, Wake & Misi, Marshall. This offseason of course there has plenty of hand wringing and talk of getting a new QB. And IMO this offseason is the first time since 08 that there was any realistic chance/desire to go after a QB. The FO chose to go in another direction, filling needs in the OL, at RB, and adding much needed speed and flexibility to the TE/WR group. These are moves designed to help Henne succeed, not to replace him. IMO there were no top tier QB prospects in the draft to begin with. And w/o a 2nd round pick, we lacked the ammo to trade up for one anyway. Newton, Gabbert, Locker, Ponder, C-Kap, Dalton, Mallett, all have potential, but none were going to satisfy the fans' (irrational) hunger for improved QB play b/c none of them, IMO, are ready to perform as rookies. Given the job security status of Sparano & Ireland, I dont think they'd be willing to roll the dice on a rookie, especially w/ a lockout looming and giant holes remaining at other positions. It would basically amount to putting another young QB into another bad situation w/o the tools needed to have a decent shot at success. If that's what we're going to do, what's the point? And I'm glad we didn't. Obviously there are those who feel differently, we have pages and pages of Henne bashing threads, with stat monsters digging up the latest and greatest meaningless #s to try and win an argument that Jeff Ireland settled over a month ago. I blame the lockout. Once FA begins I think objectivity will win out and people will find better things to do w/ their time.
Or D, they were covering their asses. All self serving conjecture aside, Fact: Miami traded up to take Daniel Thomas and left Mallett blowing in the wind. Fact: So did Arizona, Buffalo, Washington & the rest of the NFL. Can't say Miami "simply did not want him", but the fact is Miami "simply did not take him". And none of the other QB challenbged teams did either. NE took him, and they obviously have ZERO plans of making him a starting QB. They also had a bazillion draft picks and the luxury of taking a flier they way we did w/ Pat White in 09. In one paragraph you cited the possibility that Miami's FO were "idiots", "impotent", "look[ing] bad", "lying" and "scared" that the QB no one wanted will become a good QB while never playing a down for the Pats. Meanwhile, you cant possibly see how anyone could think that Miami they "simply didn't want him". I'll hand it to you, that's an impressive piece of mental gymnastics there. All that pretending to know what the Miami front office was thinking based on some anonymous quote from a source "in the building". Could be Ireland, could be a janitor, who knows? As long as it can be used to suit your argument . The reality is that no one knows what Miami thought of Mallett or how hard they tried or didn't try to grab him. What we do know is that Mallett took a precipitous fall from where some projected/predicted he would go. That Miami had at least two chances to grab him and passed, and that as Mallett sat their in the 3rd round it would not have taken a HUGE sacrifice of picks to go and get him. Ireland declined, again.
First 3 plays of the 2010 season, 2 run plays w/ Ronnie and a pass to Marshall for a first down. Marshall to the sideline, visibly winded. No joke.
Ok, have it your way: they simply did not want him until the 3rd round, when he became a decent value. That was an implied given considering that everyone knows that the Dolphins' FO is on the record as to looking into to acquiring him in the 3rd round. That was so obvious that it didn't seem to merit clarification earlier. But as I said, have it your way.
It would be absolutely hilarious if Henne succeeds to the point of taking us far into the playoffs and Ryan does not and falters again like the past 2 years in the playoffs.
I don't think Mallet was overrated that much. His ability is ridiculous as his skill level on the football field with regards to the QB position. But I do think his characters blows and that he won't be able to climb the pocket and side-step as much as he did in college in the NFL, which is a pretty big problem.
Well, therein is one of the divides between us fans and professionals in the NFL skickj, we can bang the drum for a certain Qb, the pros have to make something happen, that is what they are paid to do, so inow when one says "opportunities" that is a question only Ireland and Gaine and Co can answer, or make anything happen on. For us this is a hobby, for them it is a paycheck, they do not have the luxury of saying "we did not have opportunities" as they only receive pass/fail grades.
Whose scenario do you really think is most likely to play out in reality? If you're a betting man and you have to go all in on one guy or the other is it going to be Chad Henne?
LMAO yep. Second drive of the 2010 season, Ricky off guard for 2 yds. Dig route to Marshall for 14. Marshall to the sideline, huffing and puffing.
The most likely scenario is that both players will continue to be what they've been, QBs who can't overcome poor running games, but look pretty good when the supporting cast is good. In the specific cases that would mean that Miami improves the running game and gets about as far Atlanta did the last couple of years before faltering while Atlanta continues faltering as they have the last two years.
It appeared to me that they spent a great deal more time specifically scouting QBs. That indicates to me that they wanted one but didn't find one worth the cost.
That Chad Henne will be a good starting Quarterback, may never be elite, but leads us to playoffs and Matt Ryan joining the class of Manning, Brees, Rodgers, and Brady? I don't think either have a good chance of really happening, but I rather go with Henne being a good starting quarterback over Ryan becoming "elite". I like Henne and think he was done wrong last year, but who knows what will happen. I sure as hell am not trying to say in stone what will happen.
I'm glad you brought that up. The answer is no, Pennington was not abusing the system. I did the same exact study on him and he audibled in 2.0x extra pass protectors per extra pass rusher. That's well within league norms, and is the same figure you'll often find from guys like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady. Henne's the only one I've seen abuse the discretion to that extent.
Way to completely misread and/or misconstrue what I said. Those labels were relative to the report FROM TEAM SOURCES that they in fact did like Ryan Mallett and tried to trade up for him. You can belittle that report all you want, it's out there. I hardly think a journalist would quote a janitor but if deluding yourself and isolating yourself away from reality to that extent helps you sleep at night, have at it.
If my alternatives are the free agents available this year, rookies, and Kolb or Palmer then only Palmer, Mallett, or Ponder would have actually interested me. And given Chad Henne's advantage of having the playbook while none of those other guys do (and in Mallett/Ponder cases could they have gotten it?) I dont think any QB short of a Manning or Brady would have a prayer in hell of running an offense they may only have 3 weeks to learn. So yes, I would go all in on Henne...Comparable to what else is available is there really any other option given the labor situation? :wink: And also please quit the back and forth taking shots at each other based on opinions. Respond to the post, not the poster. We are all Phin fans here, we all love this team. It is what unites us. Do not let differences divide us. I think those of you who had posts deleted know who I am referring to. Thanks.
I get what you are saying DJ and it makes sense to me too. Marshall last season didn't have all the speed he had coming out of college, for the reasons you clearly stated. This off season he has been working to get it back.
Some folks must think a developing 2nd yr QB should shrug all that stuff and overcome it. Lift the Shulers and Wallaces and such to greater heights through his sheer will alone...because, well, Brady's done it, Peyton's done it...well Henne ain't Peyton or Brady and there are no clones of either just hanging around for us to pluck from the QB tree.
Where has it been stated directly from Henning or Sparano that Henne had total autonomy on how many extra blockers he could keep in on every pass play?
I'm going to be crazy lazy here, because I don't feel like going back to DJ's original post. I agree with most of those things being said by you as reasons for a 7-9 season. I don't agree with all. I agree with Chris that I just don't see speed as a reason for struggles. He made a great point in regards to the Giants WR's and their speed numbers and our comparison. You don't need burners on every level to "open" an offense up. We had the fastest guy in the league and our offense was never explosive. In 2008, it was precise. It was that way because we had a lot of those things that you suggested (strong running game, interior line play, adequate ST's etc.). I think the problem comes when you have several holes. Then it makes you think this is a problem too. If we have a strong running game, a strong interior OL, improved ST's, it's going to make things look a lot better. However, without improved QB play, it's not going to make anything look better. I still haven't seen good reasoning, why it's to be believed that an improved running game and a speed WR will all of a sudden fix the areas of weakness that Chad Henne has. That's being able to dress down a defense, make correct decisions and throw balls accurate within areas that allow WR's to make plays. He had one of the strongest running games in 2009 and Ted Ginn. Yet, there wasn't much maturation in his game from that point until 2010. Now, I'm not saying he didn't get better, because he did. He was much better in the short to intermediate areas. He did a great job handling man coverage. I mean there were some good things. However, there wasn't a whole lot in the areas of positions we just added that make you think, alright, here we go. He struggles with play action passing. He struggles getting the ball down field and allowing his receivers to make a play. He needs to flat out improve those areas to make the recently added players badly. Also, plenty of teams do not have great 2nd TE's. Not to mention many of those teams are successful without and don't even have the weapons we do at WR. Also, we can't be one-sided on this thing. Have we yet to talk about the struggles of Chad Henne and their affect on other players? It's a two way street there. Again, for me, the one thing that can be assessed from all of it--it was a flawed system run by some flawed players. Not just one person or one reason for the problems.
I personally don't think speed per se was the problem. I thought the offense simply had poor spacing. Our best players (Marshall and Bess) worked too often in the same areas and it made it easy for defenses to flood those zones and anticipate routes. This was exacerbated by the overly predictable use of max protect and 1 or 2 man routes. That situation would make it difficult for any QB to succeed. Early in the year the offense had better spacing b/c the running game was used more often and Hartline was in there. When both of those elements went away our offense became easy to defend and DBs started jumping routes.
Well said. Especially the part about Chad Henne's effect on the other players an potentially not giving them the opportunity to look as good as they really are. Look, I'm all for having speed on an offense. But speed is no substitute for skill. The Giants passing attack has been highly successful without being any faster than what Miami had this year. Not any faster at all. The one guy that was "faster" than any of Miami's receivers (Steve Smith) is primarily a slot player and has never been a deep threat even in college. Then you also look at the Cardinals back when Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin were their receivers. They had a pretty damn productive passing game, and Anquan Boldin is a 4.7 guy while Fitzgerald is a 4.5 guy. Speed is no substitute for skill. You look at the SKILL of the Miami passing attack, and it was plenty good enough for a QB to be productive. It was a clear benefit, the kind of receivers unit that could make a QB look better than he is, as a matter of fact. And the offensive line pass protection was also much better than people give them credit for. And even though I felt like Dan Henning was starting to lose it as far as his game plans and his specific play calling during live fire situations go, looking at the principles of his offense, I see nothing deficient there. Nobody, absolutely nobody is taking account of the ways in which Dan Henning's offense may have even made Chad Henne look BETTER than he would look in a different offense. We'll see on Chad Henne. I think he could have more yards this year because Marshall and Hartline should be even better than a year ago. I'm hoping Clyde can have some kind of impact as well. But the proof will be in the touchdowns. You put the ball in the end zone, you're going to start winning me over. You don't, and I'm not going to be impressed.
I'm confused on how the Giants and our WRs are similar. Mario Manningham stretches the **** out of the field and is def a speed threat.
